Agreement in Principle reached

[JBI]

I know it's tough cause there's 10 pages in this thread, for those who commented, I'd really urge you to read through my posts again. Setting out genuine comparators as opposed to general hyperbole is night and day difference than suggesting current pay rates are acceptable.

RiskyBalloon wrote:

This may be true, however a 34% increase on a salary that is double ours will result in a very different increase. It would be in effect a 68% increase on an equivalent Canadian salary. The gap would then continue to widen.....

I responded with information that prior to Delta's new contract, their pay was not double WJs. (I didn't justify it, I didn't say we didn't deserve it, I didn't say it was ok or not, I simply said that they didn't make double of what we made).

RiskyBalloon provided a constructive reply that continued the discussion.

Renelevesque seemed to have missed that point. That BEFORE Delta's 18% initial pay raise, they were not making double of WJ. (again, not justifying or saying we're not worth it, just setting the reference point for the comparator).

US airlines 4th year Narrowbody FO rates are about $200 US

Westjet is/was $96 Canadian

That is over double without any exchange taken into effect

As for you MMG point, there is a global pilot shortage so they aren't flying min blocks. But most importantly, working more is not a pay raise

A pay raise is when you make more per hour. Not when you spend more days at work

And with a massive labour shortage, and a critical pilot shortage, you should be seeing substantial pay raises

15.5% is not that. Not even close.

For reference, here are the most recent US airline pay rates for 4th year FOs:

Delta 737 - $169 before their most recent 18% increase, $198 now
Frontier – $130
Southwest - $154
JetBlue – $162 prior to their increase, $180 now (11% increase)
Allegiant - $116
Spirit - $130 prior to their increase this year, $165 now. (27% increase)

These are higher than Canadian rates. We should strive for them. But no, none of them PRIOR to the recent increases were double WJ.

As we all wait and see what the new pay scales will be, when they come out, there will no doubt be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and arguing over whether the pay scales should or should not include the additional 9.1% for the WSP contribution or not. That being said, if you take WJ's current 4th year FO rate, multiple it by 15% and 9.1%, it puts it just above Allegiant, around Frontier and just below Southwest Is that good enough? Maybe, maybe not.

That's an extremely weird argument. WestJet makes you work more to make less? And that's being framed as a good thing?

You know there's a difference between blocking/scheduling window and MMG, correct? They are two very different things. MMG is the minimum you will get paid if you work LESS than the blocking/scheduling window. And, traditionally, MMG is what gets used to determine yearly salary. Ability to be scheduled higher, or pick up OT will obviously increase yearly pay. Comparing pay at MMG is not "WJ makes you work more to make less". I'm not sure how you understood my post for me suggesting that it's a "good thing". Comparing MMG to MMG yearly wages is a pretty standard, yet very imperfect way to compare.

Delta may make more than other US airlines but not by 200%

The fact WJ pilots make less then Delta pilots like SouthWest does, doesn't mean it is ok that WJ pilots make 50% of what Delta pilots do

SouthWest pilots are at least in the same ball park

Stop rationalizing brutal pay

Its embarrassing

.

Can't really see how I was rationalizing anything, simply setting out proper comparators. That's the key of any negotiation. There are other airlines in the US other than Delta and that's what most folks seem to be comparing to. Fair enough as they lead the pack. Never said the status quo was "ok". Jumping to conclusions is embarrassing.

[RockSalty]

Rumor

Spoke to an ALPA guy earlier today, this is not correct.

[fish4life]

One thing people seem to compare is the pilot situation at westjet and air canada to that of the US carriers. Delta, united and American are losing roughly half their pilots over the next 10 years that isn’t happening in Canada

[Commonwealth]

One thing not discussed vis-à-vis Canada and US pay is how the new duty regulations affect a pilots ability to earn. Prior to the pandemic OT was abundant and Canadian pilots despite our discount could make huge gains onto our base salaries. The new regs are a seismic sift for both Canadian companies and their pilots. The new costs are enormous.

Probably this topic should be a whole separate thread. US pilots have been under new duty rules for about 10 years. Their hourly rates reflect the difficulty in earning extra. To me it seems the Canadian industry is going through a painful adjustment period.

[Tony Soprano]

Can someone in the know please reconcile these two charts, presumably made by the same person.
The first shows airline pay in Canada.

We are told the WJ TA has no new money in it. Then we're shown the second chart which clearly shows a large wage increase (over and above inflation) over the first chart.

I haven't seen the TA, but it seems that some people are trying to frame the narrative to suit their own objectives.

I'll wait to read the TA and hear the roadshows before making a final judgement.

[flyinhigh]

There is $400 million in NEW money in the AIP.

JBI, very well written. I’ve posted the frontier rates as a comparison already and unfortunately it was kicked out the door.

While Delta and American would be nice, reality is, if the boarder was opened up, the comparator list would be including all companies as you listed.

[highlander]

I might have missed this in the 10 pages, but I don’t think people are considering the lower MMG at US carriers like Delta.

I believe Delta is 65 hours

WJ currently is 77.5 hours

So in theory- a Delta Pilot earns a higher hourly rate- but the MMG is lower, whereas the WJ hourly rate (may be)is lower but the MMG is higher. Not an easy comparison to make when we don’t have the info.

We still haven’t seen the new rates.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I might have missed this in the 10 pages, but I don’t think people are considering the lower MMG at US carriers like Delta.

I believe Delta is 65 hours

WJ currently is 77.5 hours

So in theory- a Delta Pilot earns a higher hourly rate- but the MMG is lower, whereas the WJ hourly rate (may be)is lower but the MMG is higher. Not an easy comparison to make when we don’t have the info.

We still haven’t seen the new rates.

Delta pilots are paid more to work less.

[Canpilot7]

Airlines don't like paying you to sit at home. The low minimums in the states are a feature of their contract because it encourages a larger total roster. With high minimums airlines are hesitant to hire more knowing they could get stuck paying someone that didn't hit that hour mark.

Hourly wage is king. Even moreso in Canada, because time off isn't taxed.

[maverick12]

Supply vs Demand.

Market forces and pilot supply are completely different in the States vs Canada. In the states, they have an ACTUAL shortage of supply. In Canada, it’s not gotten to the point at the majors yet where they’re competing against a big number of other major players for ATPL pilots. How many Canadian pilots have actual access to the US market? Probably less than 3% if that, and unless that changes, expecting US level gains is a moot point. Same airspace, same passengers, different Pilot market.

Bitter pill to swallow, but if one does, they can have a more realistic expectation of gains within the new TA. If still unhappy, feel free to move to the states, oh wait you can’t, because it takes family ties, extraordinary talent or space shuttle experience, and there in lies the issue that works against Canadian pilots.

[rudder]

Supply vs Demand.

Market forces and pilot supply are completely different in the States vs Canada. In the states, they have an ACTUAL shortage of supply. In Canada, it’s not gotten to the point at the majors yet where they’re competing against a big number of other major players for ATPL pilots. How many Canadian pilots have actual access to the US market? Probably less than 3% if that, and unless that changes, expecting US level gains is a moot point. Same airspace, same passengers, different Pilot market.

Bitter pill to swallow, but if one does, they can have a more realistic expectation of gains within the new TA. If still unhappy, feel free to move to the states, oh wait you can’t, because it takes family ties, extraordinary talent or space shuttle experience, and there in lies the issue that works against Canadian pilots.

Are you sure there isn’t a ‘supply’ shortage in Canada?

There is most certainly supply shortfall of ‘qualified’ pilots. Take a look at order books and expansion plans. If it were all to come to fruition, somebody is going to end up with aircraft sitting if their pay rates are not competitive.

And AC is going to inhale another 1200-1400 pilots by YE2025. That is probably over 50% of all of the large jet operator hiring planned between now and then.

[cdnavater]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

[Canpilot7]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunwing pilots make more than WestJet mainline and swoop, so presumably they'd have the least to gain.

[flyingfool]

Supply vs Demand.

Market forces and pilot supply are completely different in the States vs Canada. In the states, they have an ACTUAL shortage of supply. In Canada, it’s not gotten to the point at the majors yet where they’re competing against a big number of other major players for ATPL pilots. How many Canadian pilots have actual access to the US market? Probably less than 3% if that, and unless that changes, expecting US level gains is a moot point. Same airspace, same passengers, different Pilot market.

Bitter pill to swallow, but if one does, they can have a more realistic expectation of gains within the new TA. If still unhappy, feel free to move to the states, oh wait you can’t, because it takes family ties, extraordinary talent or space shuttle experience, and there in lies the issue that works against Canadian pilots.

Does FedEx, United, Delta, Alaska, American, UPS have a shortage of qualified applicants?

Is UPS & FedEx even hiring?!

There is a critical pilot shortage in this country with a crisis ready to become visible

Just because the data is oddly missing from this side of the border, don't believe management rhetoric on their perception of the pilot shortage

[goleafsgo]

So what would take home pay be for a new hire with this TA? How much do the health benefits cost at WestJet?

[cdnavater]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunwing pilots make more than WestJet mainline and swoop, so presumably they'd have the least to gain.

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

Did you miss LOU2 attached to the same TA that outlined the sub-WJ WaWCONs?

[Dash.Trash]

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

Did you miss LOU2 attached to the same TA that outlined the sub-WJ WaWCONs?

Did you miss page 247 of the same TA, LOU XX - SWOOP FLIGHT OPERATION INTEGRATION ?

[GeoffPilot]

So what would take home pay be for a new hire with this TA? How much do the health benefits cost at WestJet?

Still have to pay long term disability

[Tony Soprano]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunwing pilots make more than WestJet mainline and swoop, so presumably they'd have the least to gain.

How so?

[TFTMB heavy]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunning pilots are in a different bargaining unit with their own contract. Unless they are integrated they will not see these wages.

[airbussy]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunning pilots are in a different bargaining unit with their own contract. Unless they are integrated they will not see these wages.

The TA states WJ must file for common employer status by 2025 (iirc). So yes, they will be integrated.

WestJet Swoop and Sunwing will all just become paint colours flown by the same group of pilots, the way it should be.

[BTD]

As alluded to. You guys should look closely at LOU2.

Swoop pilots will be on a 3 year scale with a top rate of 162 an hour for Capt.

[airbussy]

As alluded to. You guys should look closely at LOU2.

Swoop pilots will be on a 3 year scale with a top rate of 162 an hour for Capt.

Swoop positions will be on the ML pay scale, and there's going to be a full system bid with likely bump and flush.

All tails eventually to be moved to the WJ OC.

Listen to the podcast.

From the executive summary;

LOU2
• Integration of Swoop flight operations into WestJet mainline beginning with five (5) tail transfers in the fall of 2023. Full integration no later than October 2024
• Orderly rebid based on seniority commencing in fall 2023
• Pay protection and hourly rate increases for existing Swoop Pilots

All Swoop positions will be WJ WAWCON by no later than Oct 2024. This along with the rest of the scope section and Sunwing common employer is where a lot of bargaining capital went.

[maneiro]

Hi guys,
Dual citizen US/CA here, graduated Con College after 9/11 and was never able to land a flying job here. Had all the Canadian licenses up to ATPL, and had a couple of interviews for some airlines in Canada after I was working for a regional in the states for a few years but never landed one. Dad is a retired AC captain of around 30 years. I'm currently a 767 FO for United, been here just over 4 years. I came to this board out of curiosity to see what the pay scales were like for the WJ AIP...I had to sign up for an account because I saw a lot of factually incorrect information that I felt compelled to address.

First off, you should 100% be comparing your contract to similar pilots in the states. The training, the unions, the companies, the culture, the transborder and vacation market is so entwined and similar it would be absurd not to.

A tldr would be, if anyone is telling you to accept a lessor contract or payscale because of complex intangibles like the cost of healthcare or groceries or real estate they better have a rock solid financial analysis prepared by an accounting firm otherwise its BS.

Healthcare: Except for the regionals, major airlines spent a lot of negotiating power ensuring top quality healthcare plans for their pilots, we pay only maybe a third of what the true cost of a similar healthcare plan costs on the healthcare exchange, and the company pays the difference. Our co-pays are basically nothing. I have a family of 4 with two daughters under the age of 5. It costs 20 bucks to see the pediatrician, 50 bucks for a specialist, any medication is a nominal fee. My monthly premium is 500 bucks for the whole family, with a capped max out of pocket per year of 2500 per person should any severe illness or injury occur.

Retirement: There are some old guys who still have pensions but bankruptcy law in the states negated pensions as something you can trust. The Company automatically contributes 16% of total to our 401K retirement plan, no matching required,(this is on top of your monthly pay) and then we can contribute more on top of that, but at a certain point the pay gets too high and you'll get taxed on the excess.

Cost of living: You can google this for yourself. ORD and YYZ compare pretty favorably, but Houston and Dallas are cheaper. In the end, this is not something that should make any meaningful difference in payscales. Go eat at your overnight at the marriot by the airport in any of the major hub in Canada vs the US, go look at what it would cost for a room per night, it's not that much different.

Retirements/pilot shortage: Not even sure how to address this one...the argument is that the US has a pilot shortage so our rates have to be higher? If I remember your government allowed a bunch of foreign pilots to come into the country and work for a certain airline because of a "lack of qualified" canadian pilots...did your payscales reflect that pilot shortage at the time? My point is that you have a union, and the union sets the minimum rate and you vote on it. If you don't want to work for that proposed rate you strike. They are not going to get a bunch of seneca grads into the sims and send them out on the line to replace you...

Contractually intricacies: Someone addressed this already with regards to monthly guarantee. Some of these are designed to encourage the company to not understaff. Open time pickups, and premium pay get too complex to make a meaningful comparison. Last year we were crushed and we all cleaned up picking up, this year not as much. In reality you should want a contract that pays you a good wage with a good quality of life, not something where you can pay your bills without having to whore yourself out and pick up a trip on your days off at 3am that shows in 3 hours...which leads me into pay...

Pay: I looked it up, halfway through the year, I've made 102K, which google tells me is 138K CAD. This is four year pay for a 767 FO, (by the way, 767 at UAL is not even "widebody" pay, it is significantly less than 77/78 and not that much higher than airbus/73 max) all this with at least 13 days off per month, sometimes more. I have no reason to believe I won't continue on that same track. With a couple of nice premium months, my last year gross was 233K USD, 317k CAD.

Keep in mind, this is on our *old* contract. We voted no to the last AIP last summer, and then Delta and American got AIP's with much better payscales than we have currently. If the trend holds, we should expect 20% more on top of that.

I have some other thoughts but I don't want to parachute in and set fire to the board and leave. Good luck, god speed, just please don't let someone tell you how you deserve less money than an american pilot doing the job, I know you deserve more, because I've been to Winnepeg and Edmonton and Calgary in the winter......