Agreement in Principle reached

[TFTMB heavy]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunning pilots are in a different bargaining unit with their own contract. Unless they are integrated they will not see these wages.

[airbussy]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunning pilots are in a different bargaining unit with their own contract. Unless they are integrated they will not see these wages.

The TA states WJ must file for common employer status by 2025 (iirc). So yes, they will be integrated.

WestJet Swoop and Sunwing will all just become paint colours flown by the same group of pilots, the way it should be.

[BTD]

As alluded to. You guys should look closely at LOU2.

Swoop pilots will be on a 3 year scale with a top rate of 162 an hour for Capt.

[airbussy]

As alluded to. You guys should look closely at LOU2.

Swoop pilots will be on a 3 year scale with a top rate of 162 an hour for Capt.

Swoop positions will be on the ML pay scale, and there's going to be a full system bid with likely bump and flush.

All tails eventually to be moved to the WJ OC.

Listen to the podcast.

From the executive summary;

LOU2
• Integration of Swoop flight operations into WestJet mainline beginning with five (5) tail transfers in the fall of 2023. Full integration no later than October 2024
• Orderly rebid based on seniority commencing in fall 2023
• Pay protection and hourly rate increases for existing Swoop Pilots

All Swoop positions will be WJ WAWCON by no later than Oct 2024. This along with the rest of the scope section and Sunwing common employer is where a lot of bargaining capital went.

[maneiro]

Hi guys,
Dual citizen US/CA here, graduated Con College after 9/11 and was never able to land a flying job here. Had all the Canadian licenses up to ATPL, and had a couple of interviews for some airlines in Canada after I was working for a regional in the states for a few years but never landed one. Dad is a retired AC captain of around 30 years. I'm currently a 767 FO for United, been here just over 4 years. I came to this board out of curiosity to see what the pay scales were like for the WJ AIP...I had to sign up for an account because I saw a lot of factually incorrect information that I felt compelled to address.

First off, you should 100% be comparing your contract to similar pilots in the states. The training, the unions, the companies, the culture, the transborder and vacation market is so entwined and similar it would be absurd not to.

A tldr would be, if anyone is telling you to accept a lessor contract or payscale because of complex intangibles like the cost of healthcare or groceries or real estate they better have a rock solid financial analysis prepared by an accounting firm otherwise its BS.

Healthcare: Except for the regionals, major airlines spent a lot of negotiating power ensuring top quality healthcare plans for their pilots, we pay only maybe a third of what the true cost of a similar healthcare plan costs on the healthcare exchange, and the company pays the difference. Our co-pays are basically nothing. I have a family of 4 with two daughters under the age of 5. It costs 20 bucks to see the pediatrician, 50 bucks for a specialist, any medication is a nominal fee. My monthly premium is 500 bucks for the whole family, with a capped max out of pocket per year of 2500 per person should any severe illness or injury occur.

Retirement: There are some old guys who still have pensions but bankruptcy law in the states negated pensions as something you can trust. The Company automatically contributes 16% of total to our 401K retirement plan, no matching required,(this is on top of your monthly pay) and then we can contribute more on top of that, but at a certain point the pay gets too high and you'll get taxed on the excess.

Cost of living: You can google this for yourself. ORD and YYZ compare pretty favorably, but Houston and Dallas are cheaper. In the end, this is not something that should make any meaningful difference in payscales. Go eat at your overnight at the marriot by the airport in any of the major hub in Canada vs the US, go look at what it would cost for a room per night, it's not that much different.

Retirements/pilot shortage: Not even sure how to address this one...the argument is that the US has a pilot shortage so our rates have to be higher? If I remember your government allowed a bunch of foreign pilots to come into the country and work for a certain airline because of a "lack of qualified" canadian pilots...did your payscales reflect that pilot shortage at the time? My point is that you have a union, and the union sets the minimum rate and you vote on it. If you don't want to work for that proposed rate you strike. They are not going to get a bunch of seneca grads into the sims and send them out on the line to replace you...

Contractually intricacies: Someone addressed this already with regards to monthly guarantee. Some of these are designed to encourage the company to not understaff. Open time pickups, and premium pay get too complex to make a meaningful comparison. Last year we were crushed and we all cleaned up picking up, this year not as much. In reality you should want a contract that pays you a good wage with a good quality of life, not something where you can pay your bills without having to whore yourself out and pick up a trip on your days off at 3am that shows in 3 hours...which leads me into pay...

Pay: I looked it up, halfway through the year, I've made 102K, which google tells me is 138K CAD. This is four year pay for a 767 FO, (by the way, 767 at UAL is not even "widebody" pay, it is significantly less than 77/78 and not that much higher than airbus/73 max) all this with at least 13 days off per month, sometimes more. I have no reason to believe I won't continue on that same track. With a couple of nice premium months, my last year gross was 233K USD, 317k CAD.

Keep in mind, this is on our *old* contract. We voted no to the last AIP last summer, and then Delta and American got AIP's with much better payscales than we have currently. If the trend holds, we should expect 20% more on top of that.

I have some other thoughts but I don't want to parachute in and set fire to the board and leave. Good luck, god speed, just please don't let someone tell you how you deserve less money than an american pilot doing the job, I know you deserve more, because I've been to Winnepeg and Edmonton and Calgary in the winter......

[TFTMB heavy]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunning pilots are in a different bargaining unit with their own contract. Unless they are integrated they will not see these wages.

The TA states WJ must file for common employer status by 2025 (iirc). So yes, they will be integrated.

WestJet Swoop and Sunwing will all just become paint colours flown by the same group of pilots, the way it should be.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Canpilot7]

Without seeing the details but from what is being said, it’s seems like a really good start towards bringing Canadian pilots to a much better standard of living, if only we paid less tax.
Everyone going on about close the gap or North American standard, etc, that is how negotiations work!
Union asks for the moon, company claims the well is dry and after some brinkmanship they meet somewhere in the middle, if they had asked for 15%, they would have got 7.5%.
As mentioned the scope was huge and probably half of the gain, Sunwing and Swoop pilots will get the most gain in pay.
I look forward to seeing the actual details so I can be jealous and watch more Jazz pilots leave for Westjet, it’ll either light a fire under our management or light the fire that burns us to the ground, obviously not my desired outcome but it is what it is.

Sunwing pilots make more than WestJet mainline and swoop, so presumably they'd have the least to gain.

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

After the deal, mainline will make more.

But prior to this deal, Sunwing pilots had higher wages so the new deal assuming all three units get them, benefits Sunwing pilots the least. Not the most as you outlined. They'd get less of an increase than mainline from their old salary.

[fish4life]

Sunwing pilots make more than WestJet mainline and swoop, so presumably they'd have the least to gain.

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

After the deal, mainline will make more.

But prior to this deal, Sunwing pilots had higher wages so the new deal assuming all three units get them, benefits Sunwing pilots the least. Not the most as you outlined. They'd get less of an increase than mainline from their old salary.

I don’t think Sunwing had higher wages, maybe a hint higher hourly rate but not more money with the WJ 20% factored in

[Canpilot7]

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

After the deal, mainline will make more.

But prior to this deal, Sunwing pilots had higher wages so the new deal assuming all three units get them, benefits Sunwing pilots the least. Not the most as you outlined. They'd get less of an increase than mainline from their old salary.

I don’t think Sunwing had higher wages, maybe a hint higher hourly rate but not more money with the WJ 20% factored in

You're correct, higher hourly rates. But you're right - 20% is a big chunk. So that'd make them higher total. Fair point!

[MaxAuto]

Who is going to reconfigure their aircraft? Sunwing (189 seats) or WestJet (174 seats) on the -800s and 8s.?

Sunwing Airlines is designed to fill up resorts. I don't see them reducing their seats configuration.

The vacation division will be run by Sunwing management. Steven Hunter, Len, and Andrew Dawson.
If Sunwing can't continue to operate dry leases beyond a certain date and if WestJet can't transfer aircraft to Sunwing OC for their heavy winter season, where will Sunwing get the additional lift from? WestJet? If Sunwing can't go to Hawaii, can WestJet fly routes that fill up Sunwing branded packaged resorts. The 189 seats configuration is the most optimal for the -800s and 8s. Every tour operator uses thos configuration on the -800/8s for a reason. The company is not going to fly triple the aircraft to fill resorts down south because of Westjets lower seat configuration. That's a huge cost.

The LOU is problematic and not enforceable. Two different business models. Scheduled carrier vs high yield tour operator.

[RippleRock]

Not sure why you guys are accepting such paltry "raises" in your 4th and 5th year.

Anything approaching 2% is a bit scary with Justin Trudeau in power till 2025 at least spending like a drunken sailor. Carbon tax is driving the cost of everything through the roof. It's like a three year contract of "slight gains" followed by the next two years of nothing, maybe worse. Should have written in Bank of Canada COL index +1% into the last two years.

If inflation stays at 3+% things aren't going to be that great moving backward again. Hope you guys see it differently, but it's just math.

[FurHat]

Who is going to reconfigure their aircraft? Sunwing (189 seats) or WestJet (174 seats) on the -800s and 8s.?

Sunwing Airlines is designed to fill up resorts. I don't see them reducing their seats configuration.

The vacation division will be run by Sunwing management. Steven Hunter, Len, and Andrew Dawson.
If Sunwing can't continue to operate dry leases beyond a certain date and if WestJet can't transfer aircraft to Sunwing OC for their heavy winter season, where will Sunwing get the additional lift from? WestJet? If Sunwing can't go to Hawaii, can WestJet fly routes that fill up Sunwing branded packaged resorts. The 189 seats configuration is the most optimal for the -800s and 8s. Every tour operator uses thos configuration on the -800/8s for a reason. The company is not going to fly triple the aircraft to fill resorts down south because of Westjets lower seat configuration. That's a huge cost.

The LOU is problematic and not enforceable. Two different business models. Scheduled carrier vs high yield tour operator.

Its absolutely enforceable. Sunwing as a standalone business model is ceasing to exist. Sunwing flight operations are being integrated into WestJet under one OC. The Sunwing brand will continue on, but will not control any aircraft (not unlike WestJet vacations). If Westjet chooses to keep flying the Sunwing-branded and configured aircraft they can do that but it will be flown by WestJet pilots (including the newly joined Sunwing pilots) under the WestJet OC under the terms of the WestJet ALPA contract. Assuming they vote Yes to the TA.

[fish4life]

After the deal, mainline will make more.

But prior to this deal, Sunwing pilots had higher wages so the new deal assuming all three units get them, benefits Sunwing pilots the least. Not the most as you outlined. They'd get less of an increase than mainline from their old salary.

I don’t think Sunwing had higher wages, maybe a hint higher hourly rate but not more money with the WJ 20% factored in

You're correct, higher hourly rates. But you're right - 20% is a big chunk. So that'd make them higher total. Fair point!

That’s why I’m pumped they are switching to a more hourly rate based wage structure because it will be easier for our negots team to point and be like “look how much WJ makes we need to make more than that”

[fish4life]

Who is going to reconfigure their aircraft? Sunwing (189 seats) or WestJet (174 seats) on the -800s and 8s.?

Sunwing Airlines is designed to fill up resorts. I don't see them reducing their seats configuration.

The vacation division will be run by Sunwing management. Steven Hunter, Len, and Andrew Dawson.
If Sunwing can't continue to operate dry leases beyond a certain date and if WestJet can't transfer aircraft to Sunwing OC for their heavy winter season, where will Sunwing get the additional lift from? WestJet? If Sunwing can't go to Hawaii, can WestJet fly routes that fill up Sunwing branded packaged resorts. The 189 seats configuration is the most optimal for the -800s and 8s. Every tour operator uses thos configuration on the -800/8s for a reason. The company is not going to fly triple the aircraft to fill resorts down south because of Westjets lower seat configuration. That's a huge cost.

The LOU is problematic and not enforceable. Two different business models. Scheduled carrier vs high yield tour operator.

Sunwing has some higher end resorts and packages as well and I bet people booking those would like a nicer roomy seat on the way. The part you’re missing is that now someone from Fort mcmurray can buy an all inclusive vacation as well instead of needing a separate ticket to get to Calgary

[rudder]

Who is going to reconfigure their aircraft? Sunwing (189 seats) or WestJet (174 seats) on the -800s and 8s.?

Sunwing Airlines is designed to fill up resorts. I don't see them reducing their seats configuration.

The vacation division will be run by Sunwing management. Steven Hunter, Len, and Andrew Dawson.
If Sunwing can't continue to operate dry leases beyond a certain date and if WestJet can't transfer aircraft to Sunwing OC for their heavy winter season, where will Sunwing get the additional lift from? WestJet? If Sunwing can't go to Hawaii, can WestJet fly routes that fill up Sunwing branded packaged resorts. The 189 seats configuration is the most optimal for the -800s and 8s. Every tour operator uses thos configuration on the -800/8s for a reason. The company is not going to fly triple the aircraft to fill resorts down south because of Westjets lower seat configuration. That's a huge cost.

The LOU is problematic and not enforceable. Two different business models. Scheduled carrier vs high yield tour operator.

I think that the days of sardine class seating at SWG will end when the integrated fleet exists on just a single AOC.

One company. One AOC. One list. One CBA. One fleet.

[cdnavater]

Sunwing pilots make more than WestJet mainline and swoop, so presumably they'd have the least to gain.

Did you miss the part about WJ get increases, Swoop pilots will be under the same pay and contract and if the above scale is correct WJ pilots under all YOS will be making more than Sunwing pilots for every position and tier.

After the deal, mainline will make more.

But prior to this deal, Sunwing pilots had higher wages so the new deal assuming all three units get them, benefits Sunwing pilots the least. Not the most as you outlined. They'd get less of an increase than mainline from their old salary.

I apologize, I did forget Sunwing recently got WJ plus a bit for wages

[dontcallmeshirley]

..
Who is going to reconfigure their aircraft? Sunwing (189 seats) or WestJet (174 seats) on the -800s and 8s.?

Sunwing Airlines is designed to fill up resorts. I don't see them reducing their seats configuration.

The vacation division will be run by Sunwing management. Steven Hunter, Len, and Andrew Dawson.
If Sunwing can't continue to operate dry leases beyond a certain date and if WestJet can't transfer aircraft to Sunwing OC for their heavy winter season, where will Sunwing get the additional lift from? WestJet? If Sunwing can't go to Hawaii, can WestJet fly routes that fill up Sunwing branded packaged resorts. The 189 seats configuration is the most optimal for the -800s and 8s. Every tour operator uses thos configuration on the -800/8s for a reason. The company is not going to fly triple the aircraft to fill resorts down south because of Westjets lower seat configuration. That's a huge cost.

The LOU is problematic and not enforceable. Two different business models. Scheduled carrier vs high yield tour operator.

I think that the days of sardine class seating at SWG will end when the integrated fleet exists on just a single AOC.

One company. One AOC. One list. One CBA. One fleet.

Having the flexibility of an all economy layout and a 2-class layout would allow WestJet to maximize profits depending on the destination and seats sold. I was recently on a flight where the majority of premium seats were upgraded deadheading crew. To have had the opportunity to sell 15 more economy seats instead of one or two premium fares would likely be a benefit to the company.

[NimbusNavigator]

I did some math comparing WestJet's new wages to those of Air Canada and Flair, and the results are pretty surprising imo. I’ve laid out the math in the chart attached. What am I missing?

My conclusions:
- WestJet’s step 12 narrow-body captains’ total wages are 22% higher than Air Canada’s and 39% higher than Flair’s. WJ’s step 12 wide-body captains’ total wages are 10% higher than Air Canada’s.
- We all hope and expect AC will close the gap when they have their new deal. The gap to Flair though is shocking given it’s a 2023 contract. WestJet is paying $90 / hr higher for Step 12 captains! By the way, even for Step 3 captains (Flair should have plenty in that seniority bucket), WestJet pays $82 / hr higher than Flair, which means 50% higher. Wow!
- The most surprising thing to me is by the sixth year, WestJet FO comp ($168 / hr) almost closes the gap to Flair captain comp ($188 / hr). Obviously, captain to captain, the comp comparison is night and day.

I start with base wages to the left of each chart and then add other components of wages, such as WSP/New Pension and CEP, to calculate the total wages, shown on the right side.

WestJet’s base wages reflect the 15.5% bump + 9.1% WSP transfer. For Air Canada, I take the average of day and night rates and then for narrow-body, add the overseas & nav premiums 25% of the time and for wide-body, 50% of the time.

To calculate total wages, I add the following components:
- For WJ, AC, and Flair, I add each employer’s WSP / pension contribution. 10% for WJ, 6-10.5% for AC and 3-7% for Flair.
- For WJ, I also factored in the cash equivalent payment as a per hour figure since its paid in each paycheque.

WJ v AC v Flair - Wage Comparison.png (401.22 KiB) Viewed 1650 times