Wide body with no former jet-time

[EdgarAllanPIC]

Stall...
What an arrogant response that shows you probably have little if any experience operating multi crew ETOPS flights.
My union related political opinions or ideas for how the airline should be managed are most likely poorly understood by yourself, but in any event are irrelevant.
Myself and my colleagues are constantly having to manage crew experience levels against expected operational threats. And it would be very simple to manage my own fatigue risks in isolation as you suggest. But the fatigue risks of the entire crew needs to be managed in conjunction with the varying threat levels expected during the flight, as well as the crew members experience levels to manage them. I am thankful that the crews I work with, even the very junior crew members, understand all of this.

Are you suggesting your current SOPs and experience levels at your airline make it so you have to ignore fatigue regulations to run a safe operation?

[sportingrifle]

This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.

[5degrees]

This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.

Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...

[Inverted2]

F**k 4 years of flat pay, no legacy carrier in North America has that. It use to be 2 years let’s get that back. It should have been part of the 10 year contract, but too bad 86% were too blinded by the $10k signing bonus.

I agree but they have no reason to get rid of flat pay. They could have 6 year flat pay and there would still be a sky high stack of resumes.

That’s why it becomes incumbent on the membership to stand up and Say No. Imagine if we drew the line on the 4 year flat pay in 2014. But then again the likes of KV, DC, BM, CB and company were too busy spreading fear factor of can we do better in 2016.

The Jazz puppy mill will always be there, AC will never have supply issues.

The Jazz puppy mill is going to run low sooner or later. Soon it’s going to be only old dogs and puppies.

The old dogs don’t want to go to AC and the puppies aren’t ready to be adopted out yet.

[BTD]

94339623-5EE2-480B-882C-8AA4BEC19987.jpeg (19.75 KiB) Viewed 2254 times

[Man_in_the_sky]

This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.

Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...

yeah.. but they were French..

[TeePeeCreeper]

This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.

Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...

yeah.. but they were French..

If there ever was an asinine comment…

[digits_]

This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.

Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...

And the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?

An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.

[TheAlcalde]

This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.

Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...

And the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?

An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.

re: Operating FO 800 hrs on type, was this all his experience after ab initio training? If so, that’s Less than 2 years on the line, and doing those type of sectors, not a lot of cycles. Not quite green, but definitely still very new to the game.

[digits_]

Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...

And the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?

An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.

re: Operating FO 800 hrs on type, was this all his experience after ab initio training? If so, that’s Less than 2 years on the line, and doing those type of sectors, not a lot of cycles. Not quite green, but definitely still very new to the game.

No, he had 3000 hours

The flight was operated by three pilots:[2]: 24–29 

The captain, 58-year-old Marc Dubois (PNF-pilot not flying)[2]: 21  had joined Air France in February 1988 from rival French domestic carrier Air Inter (which later merged into Air France),[39] and had 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 were as captain, including 1,700 hours on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 16 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2007.[40]
The relief first officer, co-pilot in left seat, 37-year-old David Robert (PNF) had joined Air France in July 1998 and had 6,547 flying hours, of which 4,479 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 39 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2002. Robert had graduated from École Nationale de l'Aviation Civile, one of the elite Grandes Écoles, and had transitioned from a pilot to a management job at the airline's operations center. He served as a pilot on this flight to maintain his flying credentials.[41][40]
The first officer, co-pilot in right seat, 32-year-old Pierre-Cédric Bonin (PF-pilot flying) had joined Air France in October 2003 and had 2,936 flight hours, of which 807 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out five rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2008.[40] His wife Isabelle, a physics teacher, was also on board.[42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Perhaps not much PIC time? One could argue a Dash 8 captain or King Air captain, or even a flight instructor might have had the instinct to push down instead of up when faced with this weird situation.

I've noticed during sim training that fully developed stalls are never (rarely?) trained. I can understand during actual flight training that you want to recover at the first signs of a stall, but if you're in a simulator, why not train/simulate full/deep stalls, Even if recovery is unlikely or hard, at least you get a taste of what it would look like.

[nohojob]

Well, in sim training we go to the shaker.
As well for high altitude stalls.
We do now stall at 350, it takes about 5000 feet to recover if you apply the proper technic.
A stall at 3000 feet is totally different than a stall at high altitude.
Actually, with no training I can imagine how confusing it is to have one at 350.

[cygair]

And the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?

An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.

re: Operating FO 800 hrs on type, was this all his experience after ab initio training? If so, that’s Less than 2 years on the line, and doing those type of sectors, not a lot of cycles. Not quite green, but definitely still very new to the game.

No, he had 3000 hours

The flight was operated by three pilots:[2]: 24–29 

The captain, 58-year-old Marc Dubois (PNF-pilot not flying)[2]: 21  had joined Air France in February 1988 from rival French domestic carrier Air Inter (which later merged into Air France),[39] and had 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 were as captain, including 1,700 hours on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 16 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2007.[40]
The relief first officer, co-pilot in left seat, 37-year-old David Robert (PNF) had joined Air France in July 1998 and had 6,547 flying hours, of which 4,479 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 39 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2002. Robert had graduated from École Nationale de l'Aviation Civile, one of the elite Grandes Écoles, and had transitioned from a pilot to a management job at the airline's operations center. He served as a pilot on this flight to maintain his flying credentials.[41][40]
The first officer, co-pilot in right seat, 32-year-old Pierre-Cédric Bonin (PF-pilot flying) had joined Air France in October 2003 and had 2,936 flight hours, of which 807 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out five rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2008.[40] His wife Isabelle, a physics teacher, was also on board.[42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Perhaps not much PIC time? One could argue a Dash 8 captain or King Air captain, or even a flight instructor might have had the instinct to push down instead of up when faced with this weird situation.

I've noticed during sim training that fully developed stalls are never (rarely?) trained. I can understand during actual flight training that you want to recover at the first signs of a stall, but if you're in a simulator, why not train/simulate full/deep stalls, Even if recovery is unlikely or hard, at least you get a taste of what it would look like.

Dear sir,

Don't miss that the High altitude stall recovery wasn't in the A330 training program. Air France applied the training path from airbus.

Best Regards

[Eric Janson]

I've noticed during sim training that fully developed stalls are never (rarely?) trained. I can understand during actual flight training that you want to recover at the first signs of a stall, but if you're in a simulator, why not train/simulate full/deep stalls, Even if recovery is unlikely or hard, at least you get a taste of what it would look like.

That's because Simulators did not accurately model this.

This has now changed and the newer Simulators respond in the same way as the aircraft.

Older Simulators may not have been updated - or it may not be possible.

When I first started flying airbus there was no stall recovery procedure - the attitude was that it was impossible to stall the aircraft.

[Eric Janson]

Regarding AF 447

It’s not correct to look at this as an hours/experience issue imho.

This is training issue - they mismanaged a failure, resulting in the aircraft stalling.

If they had done absolutely nothing they would have been fine.

Northwest had the same thing happen crossing the Pacific. They flew pitch and power and when the airspeed recovered it was within 5 knots of target.