Is this a legitimate scenario?????

[pacman007]

With the Westjet and Sunwing merger coming is it legitimate for people who want to work for WestJet go to Sunwing now?
The Sunwing upgrade is basically as soon as you meet the min requirements while WestJet is still 10+ years. When the merger happens don’t Captains get protected? So basically In this scenario you could go to Sunwing now upgrade in a year or so and hold a WestJet Capt spot at WestJet pay!! This would have you jump 7-800 WestJet FOs… am I crazy or is this true?

[nohojob]

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

[rudder]

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

You will not find an arbitrated seniority list award that includes ‘bump and flush’ (displacement).

However, there will be a PID (policy initiation date) set for establishing the pre-merger snapshot. Upgrades and hiring after that date will become ‘products of the merger’ and will not have the same protections as the pre-merger positions.

[airbussy]

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

Generally there are not a lot of bump and flush mergers. Fences get built, and as people retire or move aircrafts/bases then those fences go away and that seat enters the "global" list of biddable positions. That's just one way to do it. Bump and flush is possible but if it goes to arbitration which it likely will, no arbitrator will bump anyone from a CA seat.

As for the OP question, not that's not realistic. If you left for SWG you'd have a new DOH and would be in a worst position in the long run.

[nohojob]

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

You will not find an arbitrated seniority list award that includes ‘bump and flush’ (displacement).

However, there will be a PID (policy initiation date) set for establishing the pre-merger snapshot. Upgrades and hiring after that date will become ‘products of the merger’ and will not have the same protections as the pre-merger positions.

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

You will not find an arbitrated seniority list award that includes ‘bump and flush’ (displacement).

However, there will be a PID (policy initiation date) set for establishing the pre-merger snapshot. Upgrades and hiring after that date will become ‘products of the merger’ and will not have the same protections as the pre-merger positions.

Good to know, thanks.

[rudder]

PID will normally coincide with DCC (date of corporate closing - the date the financial acquisition is consummated) or regulatory approval if that is required.

It can be somewhat subjective but neither ALPA nor an arbitration panel will allow it to be manipulated to any parties benefit. It should be factual and self-evident.

My guess is it will be May 01, 2023. The WJ pilot TA validates the intent to consolidate operations.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2023 ... 20Airlines.

[pacman007]

Looks like Flair and Lynx pilots have an opportunity with the latest news. Go DEC at Sunwing and ALPA might protect your position as Capt.Bypass 10 years in the right seat…?

[MaxAuto]

Looks like Flair and Lynx pilots have an opportunity with the latest news. Go DEC at Sunwing and ALPA might protect your position as Capt.Bypass 10 years in the right seat…?

There are no DECs at Sunwing. The very junior captain's at Sunwing were hired as FOs, but had lots airline capitain experience. There was some bypassing and lots of seniors FOs that didn't bid for upgrade.

[cloak]

With the Westjet and Sunwing merger coming is it legitimate for people who want to work for WestJet go to Sunwing now?
The Sunwing upgrade is basically as soon as you meet the min requirements while WestJet is still 10+ years. When the merger happens don’t Captains get protected? So basically In this scenario you could go to Sunwing now upgrade in a year or so and hold a WestJet Capt spot at WestJet pay!! This would have you jump 7-800 WestJet FOs… am I crazy or is this true?

With so many opportunities, one can take their expertise somewhere where one can flourish with peace of mind. However, what you describe is an interesting observation and a conundrum that negotiations so far have not overcome. In comparison with other airlines, WestJet has a long wait for upgrades. This has been due to many factors including poor relations with management over the recent years, lack of various types and a bidding system that makes it less advantageous for pilots to stay senior on type and base. These have resulted in a very slow upgrade process. In these negotiations, more important than "North-American standard" of pay, or even scope (as it existed), was the issue of creating opportunities, many opportunities. It would have made more sense to pay close attention to the company's growth plans, and work with it to secure as much gain as possible, while maximizing new opportunities of growth, for the company and for pilots. Unfortunately, the opportunity was missed, and it seems the company is trying to navigate the new route on which it was forced. It remains to be seen what growth opportunities it can present. For recruitment and retention to have a meaningful change, substantial growth has to happen, and for that the union must adopt a more cooperative posture and work with the company to capture new opportunities as the company perceives them and presents them. It is the company creates the growth, not the union!

[ant_321]

With the Westjet and Sunwing merger coming is it legitimate for people who want to work for WestJet go to Sunwing now?
The Sunwing upgrade is basically as soon as you meet the min requirements while WestJet is still 10+ years. When the merger happens don’t Captains get protected? So basically In this scenario you could go to Sunwing now upgrade in a year or so and hold a WestJet Capt spot at WestJet pay!! This would have you jump 7-800 WestJet FOs… am I crazy or is this true?

With so many opportunities, one can take their expertise somewhere where one can flourish with peace of mind. However, what you describe is an interesting observation and a conundrum that negotiations so far have not overcome. In comparison with other airlines, WestJet has a long wait for upgrades. This has been due to many factors including poor relations with management over the recent years, lack of various types and a bidding system that makes it less advantageous for pilots to stay senior on type and base. These have resulted in a very slow upgrade process. In these negotiations, more important than "North-American standard" of pay, or even scope (as it existed), was the issue of creating opportunities, many opportunities. It would have made more sense to pay close attention to the company's growth plans, and work with it to secure as much gain as possible, while maximizing new opportunities of growth, for the company and for pilots. Unfortunately, the opportunity was missed, and it seems the company is trying to navigate the new route on which it was forced. It remains to be seen what growth opportunities it can present. For recruitment and retention to have a meaningful change, substantial growth has to happen, and for that the union must adopt a more cooperative posture and work with the company to capture new opportunities as the company perceives them and presents them. It is the company creates the growth, not the union!

So you’re saying that since the Westjet pilots managed to negotiate a mediocre contract there’s no way westjet can grow because the pilots are too expensive now. I’m trying to decide if I should roll my eyes or laugh. I’ll do both.

[Maritimer]

With the Westjet and Sunwing merger coming is it legitimate for people who want to work for WestJet go to Sunwing now?
The Sunwing upgrade is basically as soon as you meet the min requirements while WestJet is still 10+ years. When the merger happens don’t Captains get protected? So basically In this scenario you could go to Sunwing now upgrade in a year or so and hold a WestJet Capt spot at WestJet pay!! This would have you jump 7-800 WestJet FOs… am I crazy or is this true?

With so many opportunities, one can take their expertise somewhere where one can flourish with peace of mind. However, what you describe is an interesting observation and a conundrum that negotiations so far have not overcome. In comparison with other airlines, WestJet has a long wait for upgrades. This has been due to many factors including poor relations with management over the recent years, lack of various types and a bidding system that makes it less advantageous for pilots to stay senior on type and base. These have resulted in a very slow upgrade process. In these negotiations, more important than "North-American standard" of pay, or even scope (as it existed), was the issue of creating opportunities, many opportunities. It would have made more sense to pay close attention to the company's growth plans, and work with it to secure as much gain as possible, while maximizing new opportunities of growth, for the company and for pilots. Unfortunately, the opportunity was missed, and it seems the company is trying to navigate the new route on which it was forced. It remains to be seen what growth opportunities it can present. For recruitment and retention to have a meaningful change, substantial growth has to happen, and for that the union must adopt a more cooperative posture and work with the company to capture new opportunities as the company perceives them and presents them. It is the company creates the growth, not the union!

So you’re saying that since the Westjet pilots managed to negotiate a mediocre contract there’s no way westjet can grow because the pilots are too expensive now. I’m trying to decide if I should roll my eyes or laugh. I’ll do both.

Mediocre contract to be the highest paid pilots by 20%+ for their type with far superior scheduling rules to any other company in Canada. Got it.

[cloak]

How about dancing? That would be the happiest occasions!

This certainly is a mediocre contract with gains equal or less than inflation, and scheduling at WestJet is the best in the country, however none of those change the fact that WestJet has a very long upgrade. In fact it could be argued that those probably contribute to why upgrades are so long. And that has a negative effect on recruitment and retention which will not be changed by this contract. And not being able to attract new pilots will further retard growth. For that to change, the prospect of growth needs to change. And that was the point: pilots must cooperate with the company to help it execute its plans so growth can happen.

[Maritimer]

How about dancing? That would be the happiest occasions!

This certainly is a mediocre contract with gains equal or less than inflation, and scheduling at WestJet is the best in the country, however none of those change the fact that WestJet has a very long upgrade. In fact it could be argued that those probably contribute to why upgrades are so long. And that has a negative effect on recruitment and retention which will not be changed by this contract. And not being able to attract new pilots will further retard growth. For that to change, the prospect of growth needs to change. And that was the point: pilots must cooperate with the company to help it execute its plans so growth can happen.

Canada's inflation since 2019:

2019- 1.95%
2020- 0.72%
2021- 3.40%
2022- 6.80%
2023 (est)- expected to average around 4.8% by years end, 3% in 2024 and then 2% by 2025.

Total- 17.67%


WJ Pilot pay increases since 2019:

2019- 2%
2020- 2%
2021- 2%
2022- 2%
2023- 15.5%

Total- 23.5%


I'm not saying this is a home run, but it's better than you make it seem. Hopefully the AC folks can finally build off this and then we can let pattern bargaining begin.

[digits_]

Canada's inflation since 2019:

2019- 1.95%
2020- 0.72%
2021- 3.40%
2022- 6.80%
2023 (est)- expected to average around 4.8% by years end, 3% in 2024 and then 2% by 2025.

Total- 17.67%


WJ Pilot pay increases since 2019:

2019- 2%
2020- 2%
2021- 2%
2022- 2%
2023- 15.5%

Total- 23.5%


I'm not saying this is a home run, but it's better than you make it seem. Hopefully the AC folks can finally build off this and then we can let pattern bargaining begin.

You don't just have to look at the end number, you have to look at the cumulative numbers.

To maintain a 100k salary in 2018, according to inflation, you would have to have earned:
2019: 101.95 k
2020: 102.68 k
2021: 106.18 k
2022: 113.39 k
2023: 118.8 k
By beginning of 2024 you would have needed to make 543k in total

The WJ pilot pay in this period would have given you:

2019: 102.00 k
2020: 104.04 k
2021: 106.12 k
2022: 108.24 k
2023: 125.02 k

For a cumulative total in this period of 545 k

That's barely making inflation. And that's the official inflation numbers. The inflation felt by actual people is likely going to be more than what was reported.

[Maritimer]

So then what does AC need to get in order to not have a mediocre contract? 40%? 50%?

What about lifestyle and the cost associated with bargaining for such items?

[co-joe]

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

Bede, seems to think that Sunwing Captains will be position and base protected. Not sure YQB, YUL bases are safe though. WS has not had much luck being accepted by Quebec'ers, so not sure how likely keeping those pilot bases will be post "merger".

... The last merger that went BOTL was, I think in the late 1960's when Air BC bought out a small float operator. Please list me two mergers where upgraded pilots faced downgrade post-merger (SWA-Air Tran is the only one). Every other one has had no-bump/no-flush provisions. In fact, the WJ CA2 LOU has no-bump/no-flush provisions enshrined. SWG captains earned their positions.

[MaxAuto]

Where did you get that captain seats are protected during a merger? How about bases too?

Bede, seems to think that Sunwing Captains will be position and base protected. Not sure YQB, YUL bases are safe though. WS has not had much luck being accepted by Quebec'ers, so not sure how likely keeping those pilot bases will be post "merger".

... The last merger that went BOTL was, I think in the late 1960's when Air BC bought out a small float operator. Please list me two mergers where upgraded pilots faced downgrade post-merger (SWA-Air Tran is the only one). Every other one has had no-bump/no-flush provisions. In fact, the WJ CA2 LOU has no-bump/no-flush provisions enshrined. SWG captains earned their positions.

Quebecers are loyal to Sunwing. Yes you're right, WestJet has not had luck in Quebec. Sunway Travel Group (the tour operator) is not going away, just the the airline. People don't buy tickets to fly Sunwing Airlines; they buy vacation packages on the WestJet website or the Sunwing websites. Whatever their loyalties are They don't care what airline gets them there. Quebecers will continue buying vacation packages with Sunwing.ca

As of now Sunwing flights are full out of YUL and YQB. There is no point in hub and spoking them into out of YYZ to go south. WestJet has already stopped the hub and spokes system out of YYZ . Westjet Airlines and its one jet AOC will be the sched operator and the lift for WestJet/Sunwing Vacation down south. Point to point and not hub and spoke. YUL will definitely stay a base, because there are a lot of flights out of there. YQB not so sure, but there will be direct flights out of there.

[JBI]

With the Westjet and Sunwing merger coming is it legitimate for people who want to work for WestJet go to Sunwing now?
The Sunwing upgrade is basically as soon as you meet the min requirements while WestJet is still 10+ years. When the merger happens don’t Captains get protected? So basically In this scenario you could go to Sunwing now upgrade in a year or so and hold a WestJet Capt spot at WestJet pay!! This would have you jump 7-800 WestJet FOs… am I crazy or is this true?

Short answer: No, you wouldn't "jump" 800 WJ FOs (or Sunwing FOs for that matter).

Longer answer: Merging seniority lists is not something that simply takes into consideration one factor. It looks at all items: date of hire, affect of relative seniority within the group, career expectations, rank/base, hiring between the airlines, major windfalls vs. major negative impacts of a particular cohort. As rudder as outlined, there will be a specific date after which the pilots hired at each airline will be treated differently than those hired before that date to somewhat prevent the above situation from happening. There's a very good chance that once negotiations start, we'll find that that date is one that takes place a year or two prior to the actual negotiations.

Also to note, that while there is a good chance that certain ranks/bases may be fenced or protected, the internal seniority lists will usually be protected. For example, let's say there's a very senior Sunwing FO who got hired with low time. They have more seniority than the junior Captains even though they haven't upgraded. While that junior Captain "may" have their Captain spot protected for a certain amount of time, the senior FO will still remain above them even once the seniority lists are merged. I say "may" because depending on the situation, it may be that only spots that were held prior to the Policy Initiation Date are protected and those after the date do not get to keep their spots (or do not get to keep them for as long).

Also, there's a good chance that what will happen is that the junior Captain will remain very junior as a Captain on the integrated lists and have to sit reserve for an extended period of time as more senior FOs from both WJ & SWG upgrade and slide in above them.

To be clear, it will likely be years before the groups are actually merged. My understanding is that Sunwing has specific Government Imposed requirements and contractual commitments for the next year or two. After that, there will likely be a gradual transition to a merged group. With 95% of the fleet a common type (737) and relatively similar recent hiring patterns (as compared to AC & CAIL back in the late 90s where AC hired lots of pilots and CAIL barely hired).

The Merger Committees from each group will negotiate some of the more special issues that are individual to each airline. For example, Sunwing has YUL/YQB bases. If they are kept open, is it fair that senior WJ pilots get them over SWG pilots currently there when before the merger, WJ pilots did not have a realistic hope of getting a YUL/YQB base with WJ. Or, vice versa, SWG has never had 787s, is it fair for senior Sunwing Pilots to bid on a 787 position over a current WJ pilots? The answer for both is "at first no, that's not fair, but after these items are protected for a certain amount of time, yes it is fair as the companies are fully integrated."

As pilots we like things to be black and white so we can plan ahead. However, in this situation, it would be very hard to predict how things will go. 90% of the time it makes the most sense to bid what you can/want to hold at your current airline and see how things play out once there's a merger instead of trying to outsmart the system.

[Launchpad1]

So basically once the merger is complete a WestJet Pilot would simply bid for a YUL base, if it becomes available, and move on over?

[co-joe]

It would definitely be smart for WS to keep Sunwing Vacations, Sell Off Vacations, and Signature Vacations operating on their own (assuming those were all part of the deal), and just do the flying with WestJet aircraft. The big question is will they do it with YYZ based crews, or will they keep the YQB and YUL pilot and FA bases. The FAs don't get discussed often here but it would be a shame not to at least offer them jobs at big teal.