Negotiations

[rudder]

There have been constant rumours about AC opening an A220 base in YVR. KSAN and YXY (year round), what else would be getting up-gauged?

YVR - SAN/SFO/DEN/PHX/ORD mostly B737 frequencies.

YVR - SJC/DFW never resumed after COVID shutdown.

Jazz will be operating single daily jet flight YVR-SMF.

Jazz currently has 60 76 seat jets in the fleet. No idea how many will still be required for the fall/winter schedule. 15 are third party leases and may be candidates for lease return.

[rudder]

June 2, 2023

Company Discussions Update

On March 19th the MEC Chair updated the status of negotiations, stating that we had received a counterproposal on wages that was so low we could not respond.

This message is to advise that we have resumed high-level discussions with the Company. Although we are close on some topics, we remain far apart on others. We will continue to keep members updated on important developments.

In solidarity,

JAZ MEC

[Malfunction]

Be ready for nothing

[canadian_aviator_4]

Yesterday we received an update that flying will be reduced in YXU, YYB and YSB this summer. So doesn't look good.

You should see the fall schedule for YVR-US. Virtually all mainline. Used to be nearly 20 Jazz jet flights per day going to US destinations.

Normally, AC would be redeploying the displaced Jazz lift. Now they are just parking the planes. No Jazz pilots to fly them.

This is the state of affairs. No remedy. No effort. No change.

It’s all talk and no action at jazz. After the same email for almost a year ‘we continue to talk with the company’ people have lost faith, including myself (I left), that any positive change will happen before there is even more bad news. Most recently being PAL, maybe a base reduction for the next bad news. Overall, with AC doing whatever they want absolutely anything is possible.

[rudder]

Yesterday we received an update that flying will be reduced in YXU, YYB and YSB this summer. So doesn't look good.

You should see the fall schedule for YVR-US. Virtually all mainline. Used to be nearly 20 Jazz jet flights per day going to US destinations.

Normally, AC would be redeploying the displaced Jazz lift. Now they are just parking the planes. No Jazz pilots to fly them.

This is the state of affairs. No remedy. No effort. No change.

It’s all talk and no action at jazz. After the same email for almost a year ‘we continue to talk with the company’ people have lost faith, including myself (I left), that any positive change will happen before there is even more bad news. Most recently being PAL, maybe a base reduction for the next bad news. Overall, with AC doing whatever they want absolutely anything is possible.

The August equipment bid will tell everything about the future.

Jazz needs to decide if it wants to be the primary destination for flights schools, or if it wants to function as airline. That distinction will be made once it decides whether it is willing to mark-to-market the pilot pay scale or cling to a fatally flawed CBA that was never going to withstand the test of time.

Status quo will result in even higher attrition rates, more PAL style announcements from AC, and ultimately a dramatically smaller Jazz operation.

Time to make a decision.

[truedude]

You should see the fall schedule for YVR-US. Virtually all mainline. Used to be nearly 20 Jazz jet flights per day going to US destinations.

Normally, AC would be redeploying the displaced Jazz lift. Now they are just parking the planes. No Jazz pilots to fly them.

This is the state of affairs. No remedy. No effort. No change.

It’s all talk and no action at jazz. After the same email for almost a year ‘we continue to talk with the company’ people have lost faith, including myself (I left), that any positive change will happen before there is even more bad news. Most recently being PAL, maybe a base reduction for the next bad news. Overall, with AC doing whatever they want absolutely anything is possible.

The August equipment bid will tell everything about the future.

Jazz needs to decide if it wants to be the primary destination for flights schools, or if it wants to function as airline. That distinction will be made once it decides whether it is willing to mark-to-market the pilot pay scale or cling to a fatally flawed CBA that was never going to withstand the test of time.

Status quo will result in even higher attrition rates, more PAL style announcements from AC, and ultimately a dramatically smaller Jazz operation.

Time to make a decision.

The PAL announcement did nothing to solve any problems, but instead created and exacerbated the ones AC already had. It has done nothing that Jazz is a sinking ship, and made sure no one will come here but those that literally have no other options, while make sure the ones at Jazz that do will leave as fast as they can.

Air Canada is still operating under the idea that everyone wants to work there, and will jump through every hoop or obstacle that AC puts up in their way. But that simply isn't the reality. Pilots in Canada, for the first time, have options.

Considering the amount of red on the board the last few days, it is clear that nothing is going to plan, and that this summer is only going to get worse. They hoped liked hell a recession or Flair failing would allow them to keep running things as they always have. So far advanced bookings remain strong, and Flair isn't going anywhere. They bet wrong, and now they will reap the rewards of their stupidity.

I have a lot of vacation, and plan to enjoy watching it all fall apart as I enjoy my life. They can still save next summer, but the clock is ticking on that as well.

[Tbayer2021]

It’s all talk and no action at jazz. After the same email for almost a year ‘we continue to talk with the company’ people have lost faith, including myself (I left), that any positive change will happen before there is even more bad news. Most recently being PAL, maybe a base reduction for the next bad news. Overall, with AC doing whatever they want absolutely anything is possible.

The August equipment bid will tell everything about the future.

Jazz needs to decide if it wants to be the primary destination for flights schools, or if it wants to function as airline. That distinction will be made once it decides whether it is willing to mark-to-market the pilot pay scale or cling to a fatally flawed CBA that was never going to withstand the test of time.

Status quo will result in even higher attrition rates, more PAL style announcements from AC, and ultimately a dramatically smaller Jazz operation.

Time to make a decision.

The PAL announcement did nothing to solve any problems, but instead created and exacerbated the ones AC already had. It has done nothing that Jazz is a sinking ship, and made sure no one will come here but those that literally have no other options, while make sure the ones at Jazz that do will leave as fast as they can.

Air Canada is still operating under the idea that everyone wants to work there, and will jump through every hoop or obstacle that AC puts up in their way. But that simply isn't the reality. Pilots in Canada, for the first time, have options.

Considering the amount of red on the board the last few days, it is clear that nothing is going to plan, and that this summer is only going to get worse. They hoped liked hell a recession or Flair failing would allow them to keep running things as they always have. So far advanced bookings remain strong, and Flair isn't going anywhere. They bet wrong, and now they will reap the rewards of their stupidity.

I have a lot of vacation, and plan to enjoy watching it all fall apart as I enjoy my life. They can still save next summer, but the clock is ticking on that as well.

It's not an "idea" when they have no problem filling classes and you have 10+ year WJ FOs quitting to join AC. Lots of my contemporaries that bitched about the low pat at AC, still said yes when the job offer arrived.

They're not operating under any ideas, they're operating on hard facts.

[truedude]

The August equipment bid will tell everything about the future.

Jazz needs to decide if it wants to be the primary destination for flights schools, or if it wants to function as airline. That distinction will be made once it decides whether it is willing to mark-to-market the pilot pay scale or cling to a fatally flawed CBA that was never going to withstand the test of time.

Status quo will result in even higher attrition rates, more PAL style announcements from AC, and ultimately a dramatically smaller Jazz operation.

Time to make a decision.

The PAL announcement did nothing to solve any problems, but instead created and exacerbated the ones AC already had. It has done nothing that Jazz is a sinking ship, and made sure no one will come here but those that literally have no other options, while make sure the ones at Jazz that do will leave as fast as they can.

Air Canada is still operating under the idea that everyone wants to work there, and will jump through every hoop or obstacle that AC puts up in their way. But that simply isn't the reality. Pilots in Canada, for the first time, have options.

Considering the amount of red on the board the last few days, it is clear that nothing is going to plan, and that this summer is only going to get worse. They hoped liked hell a recession or Flair failing would allow them to keep running things as they always have. So far advanced bookings remain strong, and Flair isn't going anywhere. They bet wrong, and now they will reap the rewards of their stupidity.

I have a lot of vacation, and plan to enjoy watching it all fall apart as I enjoy my life. They can still save next summer, but the clock is ticking on that as well.

It's not an "idea" when they have no problem filling classes and you have 10+ year WJ FOs quitting to join AC. Lots of my contemporaries that bitched about the low pat at AC, still said yes when the job offer arrived.

They're not operating under any ideas, they're operating on hard facts.

For now, but I don't see many coming from Westjet anymore for that crap pay.

And people will not endure crap pay at Jazz to get there, which is really the only lure Jazz has. That is gone. Those days are gone. And if Air Canada wants a regional feed, they need to get with the program and stop screwing around.

And AC has started to see people leave too. It might not be many, but it is more than they have ever had.

[rudder]

The PAL announcement did nothing to solve any problems, but instead created and exacerbated the ones AC already had. It has done nothing that Jazz is a sinking ship, and made sure no one will come here but those that literally have no other options, while make sure the ones at Jazz that do will leave as fast as they can.

Air Canada is still operating under the idea that everyone wants to work there, and will jump through every hoop or obstacle that AC puts up in their way. But that simply isn't the reality. Pilots in Canada, for the first time, have options.

Considering the amount of red on the board the last few days, it is clear that nothing is going to plan, and that this summer is only going to get worse. They hoped liked hell a recession or Flair failing would allow them to keep running things as they always have. So far advanced bookings remain strong, and Flair isn't going anywhere. They bet wrong, and now they will reap the rewards of their stupidity.

I have a lot of vacation, and plan to enjoy watching it all fall apart as I enjoy my life. They can still save next summer, but the clock is ticking on that as well.

It's not an "idea" when they have no problem filling classes and you have 10+ year WJ FOs quitting to join AC. Lots of my contemporaries that bitched about the low pat at AC, still said yes when the job offer arrived.

They're not operating under any ideas, they're operating on hard facts.

For now, but I don't see many coming from Westjet anymore for that crap pay.

And people will not endure crap pay at Jazz to get there, which is really the only lure Jazz has. That is gone. Those days are gone. And if Air Canada wants a regional feed, they need to get with the program and stop screwing around.

And AC has started to see people leave too. It might not be many, but it is more than they have ever had.

I would also not completely rule out an AC/TRZ round 2 discussion.

Canada is evolving back to a duopoly (think CDN/AC) with some fringe carriers which will largely exist in the ULCC segment. Canada’s population base cannot sustain the multitude of carriers that are proposing ‘growth’ initiatives.

TRZ presents hundreds of potential pilots for AC in achieving its 6000 pilot goal with less consequence if AC is forced to drop positions of the TRZ route network to satisfy anti-competition concerns.

If WJ can gobble up SWG then AC can gobble up TRZ. And it can still be had for a bargain basement price.

[truedude]

It's not an "idea" when they have no problem filling classes and you have 10+ year WJ FOs quitting to join AC. Lots of my contemporaries that bitched about the low pat at AC, still said yes when the job offer arrived.

They're not operating under any ideas, they're operating on hard facts.

For now, but I don't see many coming from Westjet anymore for that crap pay.

And people will not endure crap pay at Jazz to get there, which is really the only lure Jazz has. That is gone. Those days are gone. And if Air Canada wants a regional feed, they need to get with the program and stop screwing around.

And AC has started to see people leave too. It might not be many, but it is more than they have ever had.

I would also not completely rule out an AC/TRZ round 2 discussion.

Canada is evolving back to a duopoly (think CDN/AC) with some fringe carriers which will largely exist in the ULCC segment. Canada’s population base cannot sustain the multitude of carriers that are proposing ‘growth’ initiatives.

TRZ presents hundreds of potential pilots for AC in achieving its 6000 pilot goal with less consequence if AC is forced to drop positions of the TRZ route network to satisfy anti-competition concerns.

If WJ can gobble up SWG then AC can gobble up TRZ. And it can still be had for a bargain basement price.

I don't think so. The only way forward is to pay more. But I look forward to them testing your theory and seeing where it gets them

[rudder]

For now, but I don't see many coming from Westjet anymore for that crap pay.

And people will not endure crap pay at Jazz to get there, which is really the only lure Jazz has. That is gone. Those days are gone. And if Air Canada wants a regional feed, they need to get with the program and stop screwing around.

And AC has started to see people leave too. It might not be many, but it is more than they have ever had.

I would also not completely rule out an AC/TRZ round 2 discussion.

Canada is evolving back to a duopoly (think CDN/AC) with some fringe carriers which will largely exist in the ULCC segment. Canada’s population base cannot sustain the multitude of carriers that are proposing ‘growth’ initiatives.

TRZ presents hundreds of potential pilots for AC in achieving its 6000 pilot goal with less consequence if AC is forced to drop positions of the TRZ route network to satisfy anti-competition concerns.

If WJ can gobble up SWG then AC can gobble up TRZ. And it can still be had for a bargain basement price.

I don't think so. The only way forward is to pay more. But I look forward to them testing your theory and seeing where it gets them

AC will be paying more to its pilots. A lot more. But that will be settled within the collective bargaining process.

Commercial decisions will still occur. Nothing is static. Fleet growth can happen through either or both organic sources or assimilation. I would assign a low probability of a renewed TRZ transaction. But it is not zero.

[truedude]

I would also not completely rule out an AC/TRZ round 2 discussion.

Canada is evolving back to a duopoly (think CDN/AC) with some fringe carriers which will largely exist in the ULCC segment. Canada’s population base cannot sustain the multitude of carriers that are proposing ‘growth’ initiatives.

TRZ presents hundreds of potential pilots for AC in achieving its 6000 pilot goal with less consequence if AC is forced to drop positions of the TRZ route network to satisfy anti-competition concerns.

If WJ can gobble up SWG then AC can gobble up TRZ. And it can still be had for a bargain basement price.

I don't think so. The only way forward is to pay more. But I look forward to them testing your theory and seeing where it gets them

AC will be paying more to its pilots. A lot more. But that will be settled within the collective bargaining process.

Commercial decisions will still occur. Nothing is static. Fleet growth can happen through either or both organic sources or assimilation. I would assign a low probability of a renewed TRZ transaction. But it is not zero.

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

[rudder]

I don't think so. The only way forward is to pay more. But I look forward to them testing your theory and seeing where it gets them

AC will be paying more to its pilots. A lot more. But that will be settled within the collective bargaining process.

Commercial decisions will still occur. Nothing is static. Fleet growth can happen through either or both organic sources or assimilation. I would assign a low probability of a renewed TRZ transaction. But it is not zero.

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

I would assign a marginally better than ‘low probability’ to an AC repurchase of Jazz operation from CHR. It would also involve a termination of the current CPA with a replacement leasing agreement for CHR.

The difference between TRZ and Jazz is that one triggers a merger and one does not. Simply a return to pre-CCAA business model between AC and ACR.

[CaptDukeNukem]

AC will be paying more to its pilots. A lot more. But that will be settled within the collective bargaining process.

Commercial decisions will still occur. Nothing is static. Fleet growth can happen through either or both organic sources or assimilation. I would assign a low probability of a renewed TRZ transaction. But it is not zero.

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

I would assign a marginally better than ‘low probability’ to an AC repurchase of Jazz operation from CHR. It would also involve a termination of the current CPA with a replacement leasing agreement for CHR.

The difference between TRZ and Jazz is that one triggers a merger and one does not. Simply a return to pre-CCAA business model between AC and ACR.

Agreed my friend. Plus I believe AC owns some of the jazz fleet, at least a portion of the E1 fleet

[Man_in_the_sky]

I don't think so. The only way forward is to pay more. But I look forward to them testing your theory and seeing where it gets them

AC will be paying more to its pilots. A lot more. But that will be settled within the collective bargaining process.

Commercial decisions will still occur. Nothing is static. Fleet growth can happen through either or both organic sources or assimilation. I would assign a low probability of a renewed TRZ transaction. But it is not zero.

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

0.000001% is not zero!..

Always funny when a senior Jazz pilots mention '' we're gonna merge DOH ''

Sure thing Bob, you'll get awarded 777 CA soon ! just gotta get some jet experience first eh !

[truedude]

AC will be paying more to its pilots. A lot more. But that will be settled within the collective bargaining process.

Commercial decisions will still occur. Nothing is static. Fleet growth can happen through either or both organic sources or assimilation. I would assign a low probability of a renewed TRZ transaction. But it is not zero.

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

0.000001% is not zero!..

Always funny when a senior Jazz pilots mention '' we're gonna merge DOH ''

Sure thing Bob, you'll get awarded 777 CA soon ! just gotta get some jet experience first eh !

It seems you failed to catch the sarcasm. Move away from the keyboard and try again tomorrow.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

0.000001% is not zero!..

Always funny when a senior Jazz pilots mention '' we're gonna merge DOH ''

Sure thing Bob, you'll get awarded 777 CA soon ! just gotta get some jet experience first eh !

It seems you failed to catch the sarcasm. Move away from the keyboard and try again tomorrow.

ironically, i was adding a layer of sarcasm.. which you did not get ...

[truedude]

0.000001% is not zero!..

Always funny when a senior Jazz pilots mention '' we're gonna merge DOH ''

Sure thing Bob, you'll get awarded 777 CA soon ! just gotta get some jet experience first eh !

It seems you failed to catch the sarcasm. Move away from the keyboard and try again tomorrow.

ironically, i was adding a layer of sarcasm.. which you did not get ...

I picked up on your sarcasm. But no one was suggesting DOH was a real possibility. I used it as an exaggerated example to mock the idea another Transat offer was going to happen.

[Tbayer2021]

It seems you failed to catch the sarcasm. Move away from the keyboard and try again tomorrow.

ironically, i was adding a layer of sarcasm.. which you did not get ...

I picked up on your sarcasm. But no one was suggesting DOH was a real possibility. I used it as an exaggerated example to mock the idea another Transat offer was going to happen.

If I've learned one thing during my tenure as a professional pilot, it's that pilots have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when it comes to strategic corporate moves.

If you asked any pilot if they thought it was realistic that AC was about to place an offer to purchase Transat in early 2019, they would have said, "you're out to lunch". Given you every explanation why it wasn't going to happen and that it was a pipe dream. The truth is, they're merely telling you what they hope will happen, or won't happen.

This is why pilots don't run airlines. We may know how to fly an aircraft, but that doesn't mean we know how to run a business.

[Outlaw58]

ironically, i was adding a layer of sarcasm.. which you did not get ...

I picked up on your sarcasm. But no one was suggesting DOH was a real possibility. I used it as an exaggerated example to mock the idea another Transat offer was going to happen.

If I've learned one thing during my tenure as a professional pilot, it's that pilots have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when it comes to strategic corporate moves.

If you asked any pilot if they thought it was realistic that AC was about to place an offer to purchase Transat in early 2019, they would have said, "you're out to lunch". Given you every explanation why it wasn't going to happen and that it was a pipe dream. The truth is, they're merely telling you what they hope will happen, or won't happen.

This is why pilots don't run airlines. We may know how to fly an aircraft, but that doesn't mean we know how to run a business.

Game, set, match.

58

[truedude]

ironically, i was adding a layer of sarcasm.. which you did not get ...

I picked up on your sarcasm. But no one was suggesting DOH was a real possibility. I used it as an exaggerated example to mock the idea another Transat offer was going to happen.

If I've learned one thing during my tenure as a professional pilot, it's that pilots have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when it comes to strategic corporate moves.

If you asked any pilot if they thought it was realistic that AC was about to place an offer to purchase Transat in early 2019, they would have said, "you're out to lunch". Given you every explanation why it wasn't going to happen and that it was a pipe dream. The truth is, they're merely telling you what they hope will happen, or won't happen.

This is why pilots don't run airlines. We may know how to fly an aircraft, but that doesn't mean we know how to run a business.

I would say based on the shrinking regional network and the amount of cancelations this past weekend, even those in charge are out of ideas, and lack any vision or leadership.

[rudder]

Sure, and by that logic I can see them buying jazz and merging us date of hire. I mean I assign it a low probability, but not zero.

I would assign a marginally better than ‘low probability’ to an AC repurchase of Jazz operation from CHR. It would also involve a termination of the current CPA with a replacement leasing agreement for CHR.

The difference between TRZ and Jazz is that one triggers a merger and one does not. Simply a return to pre-CCAA business model between AC and ACR.

Agreed my friend. Plus I believe AC owns some of the jazz fleet, at least a portion of the E1 fleet

Sell Jazz to AC. $1

AC plans an 80 fin Express fleet at Jazz. 40 Q’s. 40 jets (single type). CHR gets priority to provide leased Express aircraft to AC.

Close YYC base. YVR/YYZ/YUL just like mainline.

Eliminate as many administrative functions as possible at Jazz. Turn it in to SKY 2.0

What is left is a skeleton infrastructure at Jazz. Just the staff necessary to support the AOC.

[truedude]

I would assign a marginally better than ‘low probability’ to an AC repurchase of Jazz operation from CHR. It would also involve a termination of the current CPA with a replacement leasing agreement for CHR.

The difference between TRZ and Jazz is that one triggers a merger and one does not. Simply a return to pre-CCAA business model between AC and ACR.

Agreed my friend. Plus I believe AC owns some of the jazz fleet, at least a portion of the E1 fleet

Sell Jazz to AC. $1

AC plans an 80 fin Express fleet at Jazz. 40 Q’s. 40 jets (single type). CHR gets priority to provide leased Express aircraft to AC.

Close YYC base. YVR/YYZ/YUL just like mainline.

Eliminate as many administrative functions as possible at Jazz. Turn it in to SKY 2.0

What is left is a skeleton infrastructure at Jazz. Just the staff necessary to support the AOC.

We all know your theory. But i haven't seen a single thing to indicate that is the plan, or that there even is a plan.

[rudder]

Agreed my friend. Plus I believe AC owns some of the jazz fleet, at least a portion of the E1 fleet

Sell Jazz to AC. $1

AC plans an 80 fin Express fleet at Jazz. 40 Q’s. 40 jets (single type). CHR gets priority to provide leased Express aircraft to AC.

Close YYC base. YVR/YYZ/YUL just like mainline.

Eliminate as many administrative functions as possible at Jazz. Turn it in to SKY 2.0

What is left is a skeleton infrastructure at Jazz. Just the staff necessary to support the AOC.

We all know your theory. But i haven't seen a single thing to indicate that is the plan, or that there even is a plan.

AC has a plan. It may not be as described above, but they have a plan.

The PAL announcement is part of a plan.

Expanding A220 orders is part of a plan.

Replacing Express with mainline on US routes out of YVR is part of a plan.

Expanding the UA/UA Express codeshare on transborder flying is part of a plan.

Flying CRJ200’s to storage is part of a plan.

There is a plan. Just watch closely. These are just the first steps.

[truedude]

Sell Jazz to AC. $1

AC plans an 80 fin Express fleet at Jazz. 40 Q’s. 40 jets (single type). CHR gets priority to provide leased Express aircraft to AC.

Close YYC base. YVR/YYZ/YUL just like mainline.

Eliminate as many administrative functions as possible at Jazz. Turn it in to SKY 2.0

What is left is a skeleton infrastructure at Jazz. Just the staff necessary to support the AOC.

We all know your theory. But i haven't seen a single thing to indicate that is the plan, or that there even is a plan.

AC has a plan. It may not be as described above, but they have a plan.

The PAL announcement is part of a plan.

Expanding A220 orders is part of a plan.

Replacing Express with mainline on US routes out of YVR is part of a plan.

Expanding the UA/UA Express codeshare on transborder flying is part of a plan.

Flying CRJ200’s to storage is part of a plan.

There is a plan. Just watch closely. These are just the first steps.

This isn't a plan. It is a reaction to their failure to plan, and now they have to scramble to try and save themselves. Everything we are seeing is a reaction to their utter failure to anticipate the market, or understand their situation they are in. And the PAL is pure desperation that will likely create far bigger problems, in both staffing and legal challenges.

Wearing a life jacket and floating around the ocean after your boat sinks is not an indication of great visionary thinking. And that is what we are seeing here.