I thought that the WJA MEC/Negots Team said that they were going to investigate a CWIPP option for the 10%?
Honestly all the details with the new WSP program are really hard to follow. But the latest I herd, as the gentleman mentioned above, is that the 9.1% goes into the payscale's. I'm alittle confused as to why they word it that way and not just state that they are giving us a 24.6% raise. I'm sure there is more sneakyness going on there, but not sure as to what . What is the CWIPP? that again is more terminology I have not even herd being used yet
Disregard I think you mean the pension plan. And again, the last I herd the 10% intbink you are referring to goes to WSP. The pension plan, honestly I havnt herd many details come out on that.
There is no pension plan yet. It has to be ironed out. There is a "commitment" from management to not obstruct that, as they had before.
The pay works like this:
For easy math let's say you made $100/hour
OLD
Hourly rate $100 + 20% WSP = $120
NEW
[Hourly rate $100 + 15.5% raise + 9.1% from WSP] + 10% WSP = $138.6
$120 + 15.5% = 138.6
Everyone's pay increase for year one is 15.5% overall. A lot more for people who didn't do the full 20% WSP before.
Further to what has been stated within this thread, the csp program is/was a loan to the company. As such, in the event the corporation goes into Ccaa, the employee becomes an unsecured creditor. The corporation was getting money loaned by their pilots, and since the ror on the loan was quite low relative to the market, the amount they paid to the pilots was a discounted rate the corporation had to pay out versus a normal loan that they would qualify for. A bit of a bizarre system, but very advantageous for the company.
From my vantage point, I would take the risk of having my money in a target date fund and working in the stock market versus some Frankenstein loan program. But that’s me. To each their own.
I’m not certain it was the corporation that wanted nothing to do with the csp. It was likely the union that wished to have nothing to do with it since the csp was a loan and not an investment in the broader market. This is the more likely scenario from my viewpoint. No one should be loaning their money to the company they work for. That was not the intent of the original espp was in any shape or form.
Personally, if I wanted 100% of my money with zero risk (and zero reward), I would place my cash in the nrsp money market option. That way, my money is completely decoupled from Westjet with no risk year over year. Going forward, this option will still be available for everyone presently on property as per the language under the pension header. There will be a one time opt out from the pension for each pilot presently here
Tony Soprano wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:43 am
I'm with you dude. Maybe you can invest my retirement savings for me. With returns of 120% every year I should be able to retire in about 4 years.
Where's Bernie Madoff when you need him... who needs the stock market when WJ will guarantee to double my money!
The cash savings plan did garontee a 100% return on investment year over year, it would do exactly that, DOUBLE the money you put into the program ever year. With as close to zero risk as you will ever get with an investment. The fact you dont know what the CSP offered means you should not be commenting on it.
I’m speechless. The 100% is a match, not an investment itself of any sort. Whatever form you decide to participate in. You are not doubling your money with a miracle investment. This is why pilots should not be negotiating in any form.
Anyway, I give up. The above poster slob driver has the correct synopsis.
Wow the last couple pages were painful. Glad I wasn’t the only one completely confused. Way to over complicate. Here is the simple math once again directly from ALPA…
Aviator12 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:28 pm
Wow the last couple pages were painful. Glad I wasn’t the only one completely confused. Way to over complicate. Here is the simple math once again directly from ALPA…
The cash savings plan offered by the company is a loan, and would be illegal if offered by a bank.
OLD ESP plan $100 pay, you put in $20 (%20), the company matched $20 for an affective rate of $120. (the $40 was invested in WJA stock).
CSP plan $100 pay, you loan the company $20 dollars, the company matches $19 (95%) and calls the $1 interest (5%) . THIS IS A SCAM, ITS NOT INTEREST, ITS SIMPLY REPURPOSING YOUR TOTAL COMPENSATION. How the rest of the company puts up with this BS is beyond me. If you leave the cash in the CSP for 3yrs you have an effective interest rate of 3.3%.
In the end whether you placed your money in the CSP or other pilot plan, it was never a bonus, it was part of your total compensation package.
This is why you should just pay more by the hour and be done with it. All you achieve with these formulas is make it more difficult to chose WestJet as a career path. Pull back on the stick the houses get smaller, push forward on the stick, they get bigger, thanks for the money, see you tomorrow. If you need a math degree to understand the pay scale what's the point?
co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:30 pm
This is why you should just pay more by the hour and be done with it. All you achieve with these formulas is make it more difficult to chose WestJet as a career path. Pull back on the stick the houses get smaller, push forward on the stick, they get bigger, thanks for the money, see you tomorrow. If you need a math degree to understand the pay scale what's the point?
I’m not sure that’s a bid deterrent for many people. Have you ever seen an Air Canada pilot pay stub?
co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:30 pm
This is why you should just pay more by the hour and be done with it. All you achieve with these formulas is make it more difficult to chose WestJet as a career path. Pull back on the stick the houses get smaller, push forward on the stick, they get bigger, thanks for the money, see you tomorrow. If you need a math degree to understand the pay scale what's the point?
I’m not sure that’s a bid deterrent for many people. Have you ever seen an Air Canada pilot pay stub?
No you're right, the crappy morale, the industry leading 200+ grievances, brutal upgrade potential, and terrible management to workforce relationship are probably bigger deterrents. I haven't looked at AC pay stubs, but I have seen a few WS ones, I guess in just over a year you'll be getting one of them and can tell me if you plan to stick around or not. Hopefully local 738 can negotiate the transition well enough for you. I love your airline, have taken several vacations with them and am sad to see them go teal.
As someone working for another airline, i gave up a day to picket in support ALPA. This AIP is very disappointing. ALPA had a chance to fix Canadian wages and failed. Just a week later WJ CEO is giving speeches onboard yyz yyc flight happy as a pig in sh-t. I bet he’s sleeping well …. Big win.
If all you see if wages, I guess you might be disappointed. If you understand this contract was more about Scope, the number one thing in almost every contract, you might see things differently.
Fredsbutt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:59 am
As someone working for another airline, i gave up a day to picket in support ALPA. This AIP is very disappointing. ALPA had a chance to fix Canadian wages and failed. Just a week later WJ CEO is giving speeches onboard yyz yyc flight happy as a pig in sh-t. I bet he’s sleeping well …. Big win.
Simply echoing the reason people like you who do not work at WestJet think this contract sucks... Because it will not result in as significant of a pay raise in your own pocket in the immediate future as you wanted. Westjet pilots are getting good deal, and no one's opinion matters except their own. Sorry/not sorry.
This contract sucks because the pilots at WestJet do not know what they are worth it seems. At least not the ones who are excited about this. Too many are blind sided by this shiny cheque coming in on Aug. 1. Perhaps it was all those years of cleaning up garbage in the back of airplanes which I believe was part of the company’s master plan. Make the pilots feel like garbage so they won’t ask for a lot
Regarding scope, I am aware that looking after that was a priority, however, I believe a few days on strike not only would have looked after that but would have brought in a better wage that would be a little closer to a N. American standard contract. Anyways, having worked there and having a number of friends still at WestJet, I really wish them the best. I am glad I left though and have many friends there that still want out even with this new contract. Pilots in the 6-8 year vintage too. This contract will only slow down pilots leaving for AC temporarily and I am willing to bet that whatever AC gets contract wise is going to blow the WestJet contract out of the water (including flat pay being looked after). It is the superior place to be working in this country hands down.
Flight_Deck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:19 am
This contract sucks because the pilots at WestJet do not know what they are worth it seems. At least not the ones who are excited about this. Too many are blind sided by this shiny cheque coming in on Aug. 1. Perhaps it was all those years of cleaning up garbage in the back of airplanes which I believe was part of the company’s master plan. Make the pilots feel like garbage so they won’t ask for a lot
Regarding scope, I am aware that looking after that was a priority, however, I believe a few days on strike not only would have looked after that but would have brought in a better wage that would be a little closer to a N. American standard contract. Anyways, having worked there and having a number of friends still at WestJet, I really wish them the best. I am glad I left though and have many friends there that still want out even with this new contract. Pilots in the 6-8 year vintage too. This contract will only slow down pilots leaving for AC temporarily and I am willing to bet that whatever AC gets contract wise is going to blow the WestJet contract out of the water (including flat pay being looked after). It is the superior place to be working in this country hands down.
Somewhere in 2024, I am guessing the AC pilots will get a deal at around WJ+10%. That will be pay rates.
AC still has a lot to do with the ‘CON’ in WAWCON. AC does not have work rules conducive to quality lifestyle. WJ is way out ahead.
AC benefits? Good and no premiums. AC pension? CWIPP is good. Perhaps increase the earned benefit level from Day 1 by increasing employer contribution rate.
Oneupmanship is the key to gains for the piloting community in Canada. The first step has been taken. The next big step hasn’t happened yet.
All good points. What about job security?
Flag ship carrier that’s been around since the late 30s vs WestJet (late 90s) and owned by Onex. What are their (Onex) long term plans and goals for the airline. Nobody knows because they don’t say s*** and have no obligation to.
Flight_Deck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:19 am
This contract sucks because the pilots at WestJet do not know what they are worth it seems. At least not the ones who are excited about this. Too many are blind sided by this shiny cheque coming in on Aug. 1. Perhaps it was all those years of cleaning up garbage in the back of airplanes which I believe was part of the company’s master plan. Make the pilots feel like garbage so they won’t ask for a lot
Regarding scope, I am aware that looking after that was a priority, however, I believe a few days on strike not only would have looked after that but would have brought in a better wage that would be a little closer to a N. American standard contract. Anyways, having worked there and having a number of friends still at WestJet, I really wish them the best. I am glad I left though and have many friends there that still want out even with this new contract. Pilots in the 6-8 year vintage too. This contract will only slow down pilots leaving for AC temporarily and I am willing to bet that whatever AC gets contract wise is going to blow the WestJet contract out of the water (including flat pay being looked after). It is the superior place to be working in this country hands down.
I've been reading thru the TA and the new language is solid, well written and simple to understand. The QOL items are plentiful and way better than AC in most aspects.
They lost the strike advantage when WS said they would lock them out. The pressure on the union would have been tremendous at that point and only they know if it was worth it or not when they got the last offer. All major items on the survey ticked off.
It's always better to leave a few bucks on the table then bully the company into a deal they won't respect down the line.
They lost the strike advantage when WS said they would lock them out. The pressure on the union would have been tremendous at that point and only they know if it was worth it or not when they got the last offer.
How would that affect anything?
'We're not going to work until you agree to our terms'
- 'Ha, we're not going to let you work!'
'Ok...'
Not really the strongest of threats.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:00 am
It's always better to leave a few bucks on the table then bully the company into a deal they won't respect down the line.
Then why have a contract at all? What makes you so sure they'll respect this contract then? The PR damage was already done.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
2 of the 6 ALPA reps didn’t want it actually and thought that going on strike was a better option! This will go through barely I bet and will send a strong message that 40% of the pilots think this contract is bs! We shall see on Friday.
I am sorry but when 2 of 6 say no, there are some red flags.
Flight_Deck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:29 am
2 of the 6 ALPA reps didn’t want it actually and thought that going on strike was a better option! This will go through barely I bet and will send a strong message that 40% of the pilots think this contract is bs! We shall see on Friday.
I am sorry but when 2 of 6 say no, there are some red flags.
Yes there are, the red flags mean that it's time for those two reps to be recalled. I have heard from one of their own mouths directly why they voted no, and 2 of the 3 items weren't a part of the mandate given by the membership. Remember, the union is run bottom up, and when reps vote off their own ideals rather than those of the mandate given by the membership, then it is time to go.
It’s interesting. I heard from a credible source that one of the guys never had any intention on striking which is a complete conflict of interest. Who to believe?!
They lost the strike advantage when WS said they would lock them out. The pressure on the union would have been tremendous at that point and only they know if it was worth it or not when they got the last offer.
How would that affect anything?
'We're not going to work until you agree to our terms'
- 'Ha, we're not going to let you work!'
'Ok...'
Not really the strongest of threats.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:00 am
It's always better to leave a few bucks on the table then bully the company into a deal they won't respect down the line.
Then why have a contract at all? What makes you so sure they'll respect this contract then? The PR damage was already done.
It's a shift of power and it's not as cut and dry to wear the pressure of parking the fleet and they come back and say we're dropping our last offer by 5% every day or whatever else they decide.
You have a contract so you can fight them legally in front of the CIRB. All I'm trying to say is you take the best deal you can, you never know when you took all the money.
Flight_Deck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:29 am
2 of the 6 ALPA reps didn’t want it actually and thought that going on strike was a better option! This will go through barely I bet and will send a strong message that 40% of the pilots think this contract is bs! We shall see on Friday.
I am sorry but when 2 of 6 say no, there are some red flags.
Those two should have remained quiet and show solidarity to the other reps. REP vote results should never be released, there's no point.
Flight_Deck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:29 am
2 of the 6 ALPA reps didn’t want it actually and thought that going on strike was a better option! This will go through barely I bet and will send a strong message that 40% of the pilots think this contract is bs! We shall see on Friday.
I am sorry but when 2 of 6 say no, there are some red flags.
Those two should have remained quiet and show solidarity to the other reps. REP vote results should never be released, there's no point.
Why not? How else can there be accountability?
Representative democracy is transparent. Or at least it should be. That was one of ACPA’s greatest flaws.
