So we have established that "shit happens" and the "gear up club " members suffered from a major brain fart. Unfortunately, as much as AVcan dissects the problem, nothing will change.
Possibly a very simple mod would be the requirement of all retractable gear a/c need to have a flap position warning tied into gear position. It seems forgetting flaps are not as prevalent as gear up landings. Possibly an airspeed warning circuit as well. As always ever thing seems to be reduced to the lowest common denominator.
I know these is incorporated in large aircraft but in the older light aircraft this might not be the case.
Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
http://www.blackair.ca
-
challenger_nami
- Rank 5
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:31 pm
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
.
If I had a close connection/proximity/information to any incident I would recuse myself from discussing that incident.
Examples of the above are: knowing the pilot, being a passenger in the incident aircraft, having provided flight training to the incident pilot, being the AME of the incident aircraft, OR simply frequenting and chatting with the incident pilot in the same airport cafe. In cases like above, I would not comment on the details of that incident.
As a matter of fact, I would probably stop posting anything for a while, and I would simply be a reader in this forum till that incident all goes away.
Judges, lawyers and law enforcement do the same. If they are close to a case, they recuse themselves.
That is the right thing to do.
.
If I had a close connection/proximity/information to any incident I would recuse myself from discussing that incident.
Examples of the above are: knowing the pilot, being a passenger in the incident aircraft, having provided flight training to the incident pilot, being the AME of the incident aircraft, OR simply frequenting and chatting with the incident pilot in the same airport cafe. In cases like above, I would not comment on the details of that incident.
As a matter of fact, I would probably stop posting anything for a while, and I would simply be a reader in this forum till that incident all goes away.
Judges, lawyers and law enforcement do the same. If they are close to a case, they recuse themselves.
That is the right thing to do.
.
Challener’s Rules of Engagement:
Challenger shall not engage those who lack common sense, Intelligence OR those who bring forward id*otic assertions
Challenger shall not engage those who lack common sense, Intelligence OR those who bring forward id*otic assertions
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Thought I might include Forgot to retract the gear as well in this thread.
From Google Translate......
C-GUAY, an amphibious Cessna 208 operated by Air Tunilik Inc, was flying under the rules of
visual flight from Puvurnituq airport, QC (CYPX) to RexNord mining camp
(60 ° 16'49.8 "N 075 ° 21'17.5" W), QC with only one pilot on board. The wheels do not have
retracted before landing, when the floats hit the water, the aircraft tipped over.
The pilot was able to evacuate the aircraft. Witnesses to the accident went to help the pilot with
using a boat. There were no injuries.
From Google Translate......
C-GUAY, an amphibious Cessna 208 operated by Air Tunilik Inc, was flying under the rules of
visual flight from Puvurnituq airport, QC (CYPX) to RexNord mining camp
(60 ° 16'49.8 "N 075 ° 21'17.5" W), QC with only one pilot on board. The wheels do not have
retracted before landing, when the floats hit the water, the aircraft tipped over.
The pilot was able to evacuate the aircraft. Witnesses to the accident went to help the pilot with
using a boat. There were no injuries.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
C-FFWG, a privately registered Beech 35-33, was conducting a VFR flight from Souris Glenwood
Industrial Air Park (CJX5), MB to Virden/R.J. (Bob) Andrew Field Regional (CYVD), MB, with the
pilot and 1 passenger on board. In the downwind for Runway 08 at CYVD, the pilot selected the
gear switch to the down position and then selected 2/3 flaps during the left base. The aircraft
subsequently landed Runway 08 with the gear in the retracted position. Both occupants were
uninjured and the aircraft sustained substantial damage to the flaps, belly skin, engine, and
propeller.
It was reported that during the recovery of the aircraft, the master switch was turned on and the
landing gear started lowering.
Industrial Air Park (CJX5), MB to Virden/R.J. (Bob) Andrew Field Regional (CYVD), MB, with the
pilot and 1 passenger on board. In the downwind for Runway 08 at CYVD, the pilot selected the
gear switch to the down position and then selected 2/3 flaps during the left base. The aircraft
subsequently landed Runway 08 with the gear in the retracted position. Both occupants were
uninjured and the aircraft sustained substantial damage to the flaps, belly skin, engine, and
propeller.
It was reported that during the recovery of the aircraft, the master switch was turned on and the
landing gear started lowering.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
C-GNDB, a privately registered Beech B36TC aircraft departed a private aerodrome located 18
miles NW of Swift Current (YYN), SK with the pilot and 1 passenger on board. Shortly after takeoff,
the aircraft returned to the aerodrome for non-technical reasons. The aircraft landed with the gear
unintentionally in the retracted position. There were no injuries. The aircraft was substantially
damaged.
miles NW of Swift Current (YYN), SK with the pilot and 1 passenger on board. Shortly after takeoff,
the aircraft returned to the aerodrome for non-technical reasons. The aircraft landed with the gear
unintentionally in the retracted position. There were no injuries. The aircraft was substantially
damaged.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
C-GTEP, a Brampton Flight Centre Piper Seminole PA-44-180 experienced a main gear collapse
upon landing on Runway 26 at the Brampton-Caledon Airport (CNC3), ON. After completion of pre-
landing checks and confirmation that the gear was down and locked, the pilots conducted a normal
approach and flare. During the flare, with the throttles at idle, the aircraft settled onto the runway
and scrapping noises were heard. The aircraft continued to settle, veered to the left and came to
rest nose up on the left edge of the runway. The aircraft was shut down. The pilot exit door was
jammed and the pilots waited until first responders arrived to open the door. There were no injuries.
The nose gear was found fully extended and the main gear were found collapsed. The aircraft
damage includes LH propeller/engine due to propeller strikes, LH and RH flaps due to ground
contact, tail tie-down and belly antennas.
The aircraft was removed from the runway and inspected. A functional check of the gear was
completed with no anomalies found.
upon landing on Runway 26 at the Brampton-Caledon Airport (CNC3), ON. After completion of pre-
landing checks and confirmation that the gear was down and locked, the pilots conducted a normal
approach and flare. During the flare, with the throttles at idle, the aircraft settled onto the runway
and scrapping noises were heard. The aircraft continued to settle, veered to the left and came to
rest nose up on the left edge of the runway. The aircraft was shut down. The pilot exit door was
jammed and the pilots waited until first responders arrived to open the door. There were no injuries.
The nose gear was found fully extended and the main gear were found collapsed. The aircraft
damage includes LH propeller/engine due to propeller strikes, LH and RH flaps due to ground
contact, tail tie-down and belly antennas.
The aircraft was removed from the runway and inspected. A functional check of the gear was
completed with no anomalies found.
-
Meatservo
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2576
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
- Location: Negative sequencial vortex
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
I'm sure you meant to write "SCRAPING sounds", but in this case "scrapping sounds" is probably also appropriate.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
I think distractions are a big part of forgetting to extend the gear. That being said, extending the gear to slow down instead of a power reduction first might be a good first choice. That gets the gear stuff out of the way and if you forget everything else on the checklist, things will likely work out......
C-FWTC, a privately registered Piper PA28R-180 was conducting touch-and-go on runway 33 at
Toronto Buttonville Municipal Airport (CYKZ), ON. While coming for a third landing on the
downwind part of the circuit, the pilot reported a slower aircraft joining the downwind in front. The
pilot subsequently reduced power to maintain separation and continued for a shallow approach to
maintain visual contact preceding traffic. The gear warning activated just before contacting the
runway when power was reduced for landing. The aircraft contact the runway on its belly damaging
the propeller, the strobe light and an antenna. The aircraft was lifted and the gear extended before
towed off the runway. The pilot, sole occupant onboard, was uninjured.
C-FWTC, a privately registered Piper PA28R-180 was conducting touch-and-go on runway 33 at
Toronto Buttonville Municipal Airport (CYKZ), ON. While coming for a third landing on the
downwind part of the circuit, the pilot reported a slower aircraft joining the downwind in front. The
pilot subsequently reduced power to maintain separation and continued for a shallow approach to
maintain visual contact preceding traffic. The gear warning activated just before contacting the
runway when power was reduced for landing. The aircraft contact the runway on its belly damaging
the propeller, the strobe light and an antenna. The aircraft was lifted and the gear extended before
towed off the runway. The pilot, sole occupant onboard, was uninjured.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
C-FPVR, a privately registered, amateur built, Searey amphibious airplane, was conducting a
visual flight rules trip from Nakusp (CAQ5), BC, to Revelstoke (CYRV), BC, with only the pilot on
board. The aircraft landed wheels up on Runway 30 and skidded on its keel for approximately 285
feet. The aircraft remained upright and there was only minor damage. The pilot egressed and
contacted the police and Transport Canada (TC). First responders arrived but here were no
injuries. A notice to airmen (NOTAM) was issued for CYRV.
The aircraft was lifted from the runway and the landing gear was extended. After an examination,
the aircraft departed CYRV.
visual flight rules trip from Nakusp (CAQ5), BC, to Revelstoke (CYRV), BC, with only the pilot on
board. The aircraft landed wheels up on Runway 30 and skidded on its keel for approximately 285
feet. The aircraft remained upright and there was only minor damage. The pilot egressed and
contacted the police and Transport Canada (TC). First responders arrived but here were no
injuries. A notice to airmen (NOTAM) was issued for CYRV.
The aircraft was lifted from the runway and the landing gear was extended. After an examination,
the aircraft departed CYRV.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
C-FHWX, a Harvard 2 aircraft, operated by The Canadian Harvard Aircraft Association, was
completing its 6th circuit at the Tillsonburg Airport (CYTB), ON. During the landing, the aircraft
touched down on Runway 32 with the landing gear retracted. There were no injuries to the two
occupants, but the aircraft was substantially damaged. It was reported that the warning horn for the
landing gear did not operate.
completing its 6th circuit at the Tillsonburg Airport (CYTB), ON. During the landing, the aircraft
touched down on Runway 32 with the landing gear retracted. There were no injuries to the two
occupants, but the aircraft was substantially damaged. It was reported that the warning horn for the
landing gear did not operate.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Obviously, this pilot did not forget the gear. But it is an interesting scenario in a difficult situation......
C-GGZZ, a privately owned Rockwell Aero Commander 112, was conducting a local flight from the
Midland/Huronia Airport (CYEE), Ontario, with only the pilot on board. Shortly after becoming
airborne from runway 16, following landing gear retraction, the pilot detected an issue with the
engine and elected to land on the remaining runway. He selected the landing gear down and
attempted to keep the aircraft off the runway to allow time for gear extension, but the aircraft
touched down with only the left main gear extended. The aircraft slid to a stop about 30 feet
beyond the runway surface. There was damage to the propeller, nose gear doors, the right wingtip,
and the right wing leading edge, which had struck two runway end lights during the overrun. The
pilot was uninjured.
C-GGZZ, a privately owned Rockwell Aero Commander 112, was conducting a local flight from the
Midland/Huronia Airport (CYEE), Ontario, with only the pilot on board. Shortly after becoming
airborne from runway 16, following landing gear retraction, the pilot detected an issue with the
engine and elected to land on the remaining runway. He selected the landing gear down and
attempted to keep the aircraft off the runway to allow time for gear extension, but the aircraft
touched down with only the left main gear extended. The aircraft slid to a stop about 30 feet
beyond the runway surface. There was damage to the propeller, nose gear doors, the right wingtip,
and the right wing leading edge, which had struck two runway end lights during the overrun. The
pilot was uninjured.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
On 15 May 2023, an Excel Flight Training Inc Piper PA-23-250 (registration C-FVIY) was
conducting multi-engine flight training under visual flight rules. On board was a flight instructor and
a student pilot. Several circuits had been successfully carried out. While conducting a simulated
single-engine landing to Runway 24, the flight instructor and student pilot detected an odd vibration
from the nosewheel on initial touchdown and attempted to go around. The flight instructor pitched
the nose up in an attempt to raise the nose landing gear to assist with acceleration; however, the
aircraft settled back on the runway and landed on the aircraft's belly. The aircraft came to a stop
approximately halfway down the runway. The flight instructor and student pilot evacuated the
aircraft, uninjured. The aircraft's propellers were bent and there was damage to the underside of
the aircraft.
Post-occurrence inspection and testing found no faults with the landing gear. This, in conjunction
with CCTV footage of the final moments suggest that the landing gear (i.e., nosewheel) had not
completed its down cycle at the time of initial touchdown.
conducting multi-engine flight training under visual flight rules. On board was a flight instructor and
a student pilot. Several circuits had been successfully carried out. While conducting a simulated
single-engine landing to Runway 24, the flight instructor and student pilot detected an odd vibration
from the nosewheel on initial touchdown and attempted to go around. The flight instructor pitched
the nose up in an attempt to raise the nose landing gear to assist with acceleration; however, the
aircraft settled back on the runway and landed on the aircraft's belly. The aircraft came to a stop
approximately halfway down the runway. The flight instructor and student pilot evacuated the
aircraft, uninjured. The aircraft's propellers were bent and there was damage to the underside of
the aircraft.
Post-occurrence inspection and testing found no faults with the landing gear. This, in conjunction
with CCTV footage of the final moments suggest that the landing gear (i.e., nosewheel) had not
completed its down cycle at the time of initial touchdown.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Another Save from the Dunker course. One does have to be careful with that gear warning system. I flew a C180 with it and one time we were on final for a water landing with the gear up. But the approach has you fly low over the shoreline just prior to touching down on the water. Therefore, you get a gear up warning while over the land because it thinks you will be landing on land instead of water(based on laser detection).
C-FRSB, a privately operated amateur-built Bushmaster Model B aircraft on amphibian floats was
on a VFR flight from Greenwood Airport, NS (CYZX) to Lake George, NS. When the aircraft
departed CYZX the landing gear was not retracted. Enroute to destination the pilot elected to do a
touch and go on Aylesford Lake, NS and when the aircraft touched down it nosed over
immediately, and the cabin space began to fill with water. The pilot was not injured and unstrapped
the safety harness and utilized techniques learned from a recent floatplane dunker training course
to exit the aircraft. Once outside and clear of the aircraft the pilot inflated the life vest and swam
approximately one kilometer to the shoreline. The pilot then utilized a cellphone to contact the duty
officer at CFB Greenwood and informed them of the accident. The 121.5 MHz emergency locator
transmitter did not activate.
C-FRSB was equipped with a Wipaire gear position warning system that consisted of four (4) hard
surface green colored indicator lights and four (4) water surface blue colored indicator lights.
Additionally, C-FRSB contained an aural gear advisory that indicated the gear position once the
throttle was reduced below a set value.
On the occurrence landing, the aircraft checklist and
GUMP’s check, which were normally done, were not completed. The aural gear advisory, which
stated that the gear was down, had been immediately silenced by the pilot prior to touchdown.
The aircraft sustained water damage and impact damage to the windshield, left wing, tail and
empennage.
C-FRSB, a privately operated amateur-built Bushmaster Model B aircraft on amphibian floats was
on a VFR flight from Greenwood Airport, NS (CYZX) to Lake George, NS. When the aircraft
departed CYZX the landing gear was not retracted. Enroute to destination the pilot elected to do a
touch and go on Aylesford Lake, NS and when the aircraft touched down it nosed over
immediately, and the cabin space began to fill with water. The pilot was not injured and unstrapped
the safety harness and utilized techniques learned from a recent floatplane dunker training course
to exit the aircraft. Once outside and clear of the aircraft the pilot inflated the life vest and swam
approximately one kilometer to the shoreline. The pilot then utilized a cellphone to contact the duty
officer at CFB Greenwood and informed them of the accident. The 121.5 MHz emergency locator
transmitter did not activate.
C-FRSB was equipped with a Wipaire gear position warning system that consisted of four (4) hard
surface green colored indicator lights and four (4) water surface blue colored indicator lights.
Additionally, C-FRSB contained an aural gear advisory that indicated the gear position once the
throttle was reduced below a set value.
On the occurrence landing, the aircraft checklist and
GUMP’s check, which were normally done, were not completed. The aural gear advisory, which
stated that the gear was down, had been immediately silenced by the pilot prior to touchdown.
The aircraft sustained water damage and impact damage to the windshield, left wing, tail and
empennage.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Different incident for this thread title but interesting nonetheless.....
C-FTJX, a 2080061 Ontario Inc. (dba SkyCare Air Ambulance) Piper PA-31-350 was departing Big
Trout Lake Airport (CYTL), ON, on a visual flight rules flight to Sioux Lookout Airport (CYXL), ON.
During the application of power and forward movement of the aircraft for takeoff from CYTL, the
main gear doors opened and the nose gear retracted. There were no injuries to the 5 passengers
nor to the 2 crew members. The aircraft received substantial damaged.
A post-occurrence cockpit survey indicated the nose landing gear handle was in the up position.
Information gathered indicated a portable GPS yoke mount's clamp adjusting screw (installed on
the left yoke) had white paint transfer from the landing gear handle. The operator's maintenance
lifted the aircraft and removed the aircraft from the runway.
The operator reported that the GPS mount's clamp is normally mounted with the adjusting screw
on the left side of the yoke; however on this aircraft, the clamp's adjusting screw was mounted on
the right side of the yoke. Control column movement on C-FTJX allowed the clamp's adjusting
screw handle to contact the landing gear handle. The operator's maintenance also found that the
aircraft's anti-retraction safety system had failed.
....from TSB.
C-FTJX, a 2080061 Ontario Inc. (dba SkyCare Air Ambulance) Piper PA-31-350 was departing Big
Trout Lake Airport (CYTL), ON, on a visual flight rules flight to Sioux Lookout Airport (CYXL), ON.
During the application of power and forward movement of the aircraft for takeoff from CYTL, the
main gear doors opened and the nose gear retracted. There were no injuries to the 5 passengers
nor to the 2 crew members. The aircraft received substantial damaged.
A post-occurrence cockpit survey indicated the nose landing gear handle was in the up position.
Information gathered indicated a portable GPS yoke mount's clamp adjusting screw (installed on
the left yoke) had white paint transfer from the landing gear handle. The operator's maintenance
lifted the aircraft and removed the aircraft from the runway.
The operator reported that the GPS mount's clamp is normally mounted with the adjusting screw
on the left side of the yoke; however on this aircraft, the clamp's adjusting screw was mounted on
the right side of the yoke. Control column movement on C-FTJX allowed the clamp's adjusting
screw handle to contact the landing gear handle. The operator's maintenance also found that the
aircraft's anti-retraction safety system had failed.
....from TSB.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
OMNR again.....
C-FOEW, de Havilland DHC0-2 MK3 (Turbo Beaver), equipped with amphibious floats and
operated by the Province of Ontario, Ministry of Natural Resources, was on a Pilot Competency
Check (PCC) flight with two pilots on board. After completing training, which included water
landings and take-offs, the aircraft departed from the Killarney area destined for the North Bay
Jack Garland Airport (CYYB), ON. The landing at CYYB was the final exercise, and to be
performed as a flapless landing. The aircraft landed on runway 36 with the wheels in the up
position, and after touchdown came to a stop. Although the Land/Sea switch was on Land position,
the landing gear handle remained in the up position. The aircraft received damage to the keel on
both floats but there were no injuries. It was reported that due to the flaps being up, the landing
gear warning system was not operational. The operator reviewed their training criteria for this type
of flight test and have decided to eliminate the flapless landing exercise for all their fixed wing
aircraft.
......From TSB.
C-FOEW, de Havilland DHC0-2 MK3 (Turbo Beaver), equipped with amphibious floats and
operated by the Province of Ontario, Ministry of Natural Resources, was on a Pilot Competency
Check (PCC) flight with two pilots on board. After completing training, which included water
landings and take-offs, the aircraft departed from the Killarney area destined for the North Bay
Jack Garland Airport (CYYB), ON. The landing at CYYB was the final exercise, and to be
performed as a flapless landing. The aircraft landed on runway 36 with the wheels in the up
position, and after touchdown came to a stop. Although the Land/Sea switch was on Land position,
the landing gear handle remained in the up position. The aircraft received damage to the keel on
both floats but there were no injuries. It was reported that due to the flaps being up, the landing
gear warning system was not operational. The operator reviewed their training criteria for this type
of flight test and have decided to eliminate the flapless landing exercise for all their fixed wing
aircraft.
......From TSB.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
There are a few themes here...
Silence is not a warning! There's no point in any warning system, if it possible that silence results from that system when it should be providing a warning. Pilots flying airplanes with advance warning systems need to think their way through the combinations of abnormal conditions to consider if a warning system could be disabled un noticed. The airplane should not be certified that way, but I have certainly seen misses on this theme.
I have flown many different amphibians with many different systems for determining landing gear position. Some, I truly disliked, some I just though were an expensive, unhelpful distraction. There has been one which has never failed me:
For every airplane I fly with selectable landing gear (which includes RG landplanes, wheel ski planes, and amphibians), every downwind and then final approach includes my pausing whatever else I'm doing (particularly during an abnormal situation) looking at the landing gear position by all available means (out the window, and whatever indicators there may be) looking at what I'm going to land on, and speaking out loud: "The wheels are up for a water/snow (wheel skis)/rough field/ditching landing", or "The wheels are down for landing on land." it is 100% foolproof!
When I have trained amphibian pilots, doing this as I instruct was not negotiable (regardless of whatever systems the plane may have). I would explain that I would remind then the first time that they forgot to speak configuration, but I would not remind them the second time. Instead, when the pilot was set up as a safe place along later final approach, I would call a go around with emotional urgency. When the go around was safely underway, the candidate would turn to me and ask what had been wrong. I would remind them that they had not spoken the landing surface and gear position. They would invariably state the the gear was where it should have been, to which I would agree, but it was speaking the configuration which was the exercise. I tried to make it memorable for them....
Having airplane with warning systems is a dangerous crutch. If the warning system is infallible (though I've never seen one), and all the planes in the "fleet" are identical, maybe there's use. But, when the pilot gets into an amphib which has different or no warning systems, the Swiss cheese holes suddenly line up.
A few years ago I was test flying a very well equipped 185 amphib. It had a lidar system for gear warning which was new to me. It "knew" if the plane was over land or water, before warning - interesting... I would speak a preflight self test before takeoff. Thereafter, I noticed it was silent. It did not give me a warning for incorrect configuration - big problem! I snagged it. After rectification, I flew the maintenance tests for the repaired system. Alarmingly, it required my testing by actually flying the plane at 75 kts, gear down, within 100 feet of the water to get the warning to check it worked. Doing that is silly and very risky! As I came to understand the system better, (and credit to the system design approval holder), if you were to fly a landing to the water, over shore to the water, you would not get a warning until the lidar "saw" water - by then it could be too late to make a safe go around.
Let alone all of the technology applied to this realm of flying, it is primarily a training and cockpit discipline thing.
Silence is not a warning! There's no point in any warning system, if it possible that silence results from that system when it should be providing a warning. Pilots flying airplanes with advance warning systems need to think their way through the combinations of abnormal conditions to consider if a warning system could be disabled un noticed. The airplane should not be certified that way, but I have certainly seen misses on this theme.
I have flown many different amphibians with many different systems for determining landing gear position. Some, I truly disliked, some I just though were an expensive, unhelpful distraction. There has been one which has never failed me:
For every airplane I fly with selectable landing gear (which includes RG landplanes, wheel ski planes, and amphibians), every downwind and then final approach includes my pausing whatever else I'm doing (particularly during an abnormal situation) looking at the landing gear position by all available means (out the window, and whatever indicators there may be) looking at what I'm going to land on, and speaking out loud: "The wheels are up for a water/snow (wheel skis)/rough field/ditching landing", or "The wheels are down for landing on land." it is 100% foolproof!
When I have trained amphibian pilots, doing this as I instruct was not negotiable (regardless of whatever systems the plane may have). I would explain that I would remind then the first time that they forgot to speak configuration, but I would not remind them the second time. Instead, when the pilot was set up as a safe place along later final approach, I would call a go around with emotional urgency. When the go around was safely underway, the candidate would turn to me and ask what had been wrong. I would remind them that they had not spoken the landing surface and gear position. They would invariably state the the gear was where it should have been, to which I would agree, but it was speaking the configuration which was the exercise. I tried to make it memorable for them....
Having airplane with warning systems is a dangerous crutch. If the warning system is infallible (though I've never seen one), and all the planes in the "fleet" are identical, maybe there's use. But, when the pilot gets into an amphib which has different or no warning systems, the Swiss cheese holes suddenly line up.
A few years ago I was test flying a very well equipped 185 amphib. It had a lidar system for gear warning which was new to me. It "knew" if the plane was over land or water, before warning - interesting... I would speak a preflight self test before takeoff. Thereafter, I noticed it was silent. It did not give me a warning for incorrect configuration - big problem! I snagged it. After rectification, I flew the maintenance tests for the repaired system. Alarmingly, it required my testing by actually flying the plane at 75 kts, gear down, within 100 feet of the water to get the warning to check it worked. Doing that is silly and very risky! As I came to understand the system better, (and credit to the system design approval holder), if you were to fly a landing to the water, over shore to the water, you would not get a warning until the lidar "saw" water - by then it could be too late to make a safe go around.
Let alone all of the technology applied to this realm of flying, it is primarily a training and cockpit discipline thing.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
I flew a C180 with LIDAR.PilotDAR wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:54 am A few years ago I was test flying a very well equipped 185 amphib. It had a lidar system for gear warning which was new to me. It "knew" if the plane was over land or water, before warning - interesting... I would speak a preflight self test before takeoff. Thereafter, I noticed it was silent. It did not give me a warning for incorrect configuration - big problem! I snagged it. After rectification, I flew the maintenance tests for the repaired system. Alarmingly, it required my testing by actually flying the plane at 75 kts, gear down, within 100 feet of the water to get the warning to check it worked. Doing that is silly and very risky! As I came to understand the system better, (and credit to the system design approval holder), if you were to fly a landing to the water, over shore to the water, you would not get a warning until the lidar "saw" water - by then it could be too late to make a safe go around.
When landing on a lake where the final approach to a very low altitude was made over land, there would be an incorrect warning. The aircraft makes a decision at a low altitude as to whether one is landing on land or water. In this case, it is low enough over undulating terrain that it decides that your gear is unintentionally up for an airport landing when in fact it is intentionally up for a water landing.
I suppose it is like a ceilometer that sees and reports clear skies through a small hole in the overcast layer and reports clear skies or an old style GPWS that used to yell Terrain, Terrian when flying over a large hole in the ground(a mine) where the radalt rapidly decreasing would set off the warning(technically a mandatory go-around in instrument conditions).
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Hate to do it at Oshkosh...
C-FCUR, a privately registered amateur built Lancair Legacy RG aircraft, departed
Oshkosh/Wittman Regional (KOSH), USA, for Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson
International Airport (CYWG), MB. On approach to Runway 13 at CYWG, as aircraft were landing
ahead of C-FCUR, the tower requested that C-FCUR land on the numbers to maintain separation.
The pilot was looking outside for traffic and the aircraft landed with the gear retracted. There were
no injuries to the pilot or passenger. Damaged was limited to the propeller, the belly fuel tank, and
the ventral fin. Aircraft rescue and firefighting did respond and CYWG was closed for
approximately 1 hour while the aircraft was removed.
....from TSB.
C-FCUR, a privately registered amateur built Lancair Legacy RG aircraft, departed
Oshkosh/Wittman Regional (KOSH), USA, for Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson
International Airport (CYWG), MB. On approach to Runway 13 at CYWG, as aircraft were landing
ahead of C-FCUR, the tower requested that C-FCUR land on the numbers to maintain separation.
The pilot was looking outside for traffic and the aircraft landed with the gear retracted. There were
no injuries to the pilot or passenger. Damaged was limited to the propeller, the belly fuel tank, and
the ventral fin. Aircraft rescue and firefighting did respond and CYWG was closed for
approximately 1 hour while the aircraft was removed.
....from TSB.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
From TSB...
"C-FTKG, a Diamond DA42 operated by Cygnet Aviation Academy LP, was conducting a training
flight towards a multi-engine rating, with an instructor and 2 students aboard. The aircraft had
departed the Kingston Norman Rogers Airport (CYGK), ON, and proceeded to the training area to
conduct various air-work exercises. The final planned exercise was a simulated engine failure
followed by a single engine approach and landing. To simulate a failed engine and feathered
propeller, the simulated failed engine was set to 15% load; under this condition the landing gear
warning horn sounds continuously until the landing gear is selected down, which would normally be
done only when landing is assured during a single engine approach and landing. The student
completed the pre-landing checks, including the gear/fire test, but the gear handle was not placed
in the down position before landing. The aircraft landed on Runway 07 with landing gear in the
retracted position, the propellers contacting the runway first approximately 1200 feet along Runway
07 and the aircraft then sliding on its belly before coming to a stop on the runway. The instructor
and 2 students exited the aircraft with no injuries. The aircraft was substantially damaged."
.....Gear warning was sounding the whole time. This can happen and I say it from experience. A long time ago, I was doing a checkout in a 172RG and it was decided to do a practice forced approach. When the instructor closed the throttle, the gear warning started its annoying warning. With no realistic way to silence it, yet wanting to be able to maximize glide capability, I said to myself to ignore the warning for now and get the gear later. I ended up having to be reminded that the gear was up as I was on short final. The potential hazard of intentionally tuning out a warning.
"C-FTKG, a Diamond DA42 operated by Cygnet Aviation Academy LP, was conducting a training
flight towards a multi-engine rating, with an instructor and 2 students aboard. The aircraft had
departed the Kingston Norman Rogers Airport (CYGK), ON, and proceeded to the training area to
conduct various air-work exercises. The final planned exercise was a simulated engine failure
followed by a single engine approach and landing. To simulate a failed engine and feathered
propeller, the simulated failed engine was set to 15% load; under this condition the landing gear
warning horn sounds continuously until the landing gear is selected down, which would normally be
done only when landing is assured during a single engine approach and landing. The student
completed the pre-landing checks, including the gear/fire test, but the gear handle was not placed
in the down position before landing. The aircraft landed on Runway 07 with landing gear in the
retracted position, the propellers contacting the runway first approximately 1200 feet along Runway
07 and the aircraft then sliding on its belly before coming to a stop on the runway. The instructor
and 2 students exited the aircraft with no injuries. The aircraft was substantially damaged."
.....Gear warning was sounding the whole time. This can happen and I say it from experience. A long time ago, I was doing a checkout in a 172RG and it was decided to do a practice forced approach. When the instructor closed the throttle, the gear warning started its annoying warning. With no realistic way to silence it, yet wanting to be able to maximize glide capability, I said to myself to ignore the warning for now and get the gear later. I ended up having to be reminded that the gear was up as I was on short final. The potential hazard of intentionally tuning out a warning.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
From TSB....
C-FMVO, a privately registered Beech C35 aircraft, was conducting a visual flight rules (VFR) flight
from Saskatoon/Banga Air Aerodrome (CJN5), SK, to Rocky Mountain House Aerodrome (CYRM),
AB, with the pilot and one passenger on board. While on route, the pilot decided to do a touch-and-
go landing at Biggar Aerodrome (CJF8), SK. On final approach, the pilot selected the landing gear
down and noted that he had a down and locked indication. Prior to landing in gusty conditions, the
pilot attempted to adjust the flaps selection; however, he mistakenly selected the landing gear up.
The aircraft subsequently landed with the gear retracted and sustained damage to its propeller,
lower fuselage and wings. There were no injuries. The runway was closed until the aircraft could be
moved.
.....strange things happen to some pilots.
C-FMVO, a privately registered Beech C35 aircraft, was conducting a visual flight rules (VFR) flight
from Saskatoon/Banga Air Aerodrome (CJN5), SK, to Rocky Mountain House Aerodrome (CYRM),
AB, with the pilot and one passenger on board. While on route, the pilot decided to do a touch-and-
go landing at Biggar Aerodrome (CJF8), SK. On final approach, the pilot selected the landing gear
down and noted that he had a down and locked indication. Prior to landing in gusty conditions, the
pilot attempted to adjust the flaps selection; however, he mistakenly selected the landing gear up.
The aircraft subsequently landed with the gear retracted and sustained damage to its propeller,
lower fuselage and wings. There were no injuries. The runway was closed until the aircraft could be
moved.
.....strange things happen to some pilots.
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
A local old guy did this in my area about 30 years ago. Forgot to retract the gear and then retracted it when he thought he was extending it. He was flying well past his due date and that may have been hos last flight. Now I see a similar incident......
C-FQGB, a privately registered Mooney M20C, was conducting circuits at Taber Aerodrome
(CED5), AB, with a pilot and one passenger on board. On the initial climb for the third circuit, the
pilot and passenger began discussing the CHT and EGT indication, and the landing gear was not
retracted. The aircraft is equipped with a manual type landing gear retraction mechanism. On the
downwind leg of the circuit, the pilot observed that the indicated airspeed was slower than normal
but did not correlate that to the landing gear still being extended. Turning base leg, the pilot
attempted to configure the aircraft for landing by turning on the boost pump and operating the gear
extension lever. The landing gear was now retracted, and the gear unsafe light was illuminated on
the instrument panel. At this point, there was another conversation in the cockpit about the runway
approach lights no longer being operable, and the gear unsafe light went unnoticed. The approach
was continued and the aircraft made contact with the runway with the landing gear fully retracted,
approximately 1/3 to 1/2 way down the runway. The aircraft skidded to a stop on the runway, and
the pilot and passenger exited the aircraft. There were no injuries and no reported mechanical
issues with the aircraft prior to the accident.
......from TSB
C-FQGB, a privately registered Mooney M20C, was conducting circuits at Taber Aerodrome
(CED5), AB, with a pilot and one passenger on board. On the initial climb for the third circuit, the
pilot and passenger began discussing the CHT and EGT indication, and the landing gear was not
retracted. The aircraft is equipped with a manual type landing gear retraction mechanism. On the
downwind leg of the circuit, the pilot observed that the indicated airspeed was slower than normal
but did not correlate that to the landing gear still being extended. Turning base leg, the pilot
attempted to configure the aircraft for landing by turning on the boost pump and operating the gear
extension lever. The landing gear was now retracted, and the gear unsafe light was illuminated on
the instrument panel. At this point, there was another conversation in the cockpit about the runway
approach lights no longer being operable, and the gear unsafe light went unnoticed. The approach
was continued and the aircraft made contact with the runway with the landing gear fully retracted,
approximately 1/3 to 1/2 way down the runway. The aircraft skidded to a stop on the runway, and
the pilot and passenger exited the aircraft. There were no injuries and no reported mechanical
issues with the aircraft prior to the accident.
......from TSB
Last edited by pelmet on Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
goldeneagle
- Rank (9)
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- Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
And I'm curious, how do you determine when he should die, and why he was past the date you think that should have been ?
Re: Forgot to Extend the Gear Thread
Oops, I meant to say due date. My mistake(the I key is beside the U key and it made it sound worse). Maybe I am getting past that date as well by not reading what I type before posting. And......not reading things thoroughly can contribute to an accident.goldeneagle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 11:14 pmAnd I'm curious, how do you determine when he should die, and why he was past the date you think that should have been ?
I never flew with him but some people in the flying club at the time said that he should not be flying anymore including one or two that were flying with him for instrument training. Then the accident happened.
Actually, this is not an uncommon situation including among car drivers. That is why some provinces have tests for elderly drivers. Looking on the internet, I found this.....
"People age 80 and older must undergo a mandatory in-class screening process to determine driving eligibility.
While some groups are claiming that the new senior testing procedures for driver’s licenses are discriminatory, the Government of Canada reports the following: Roughly 14,000 seniors who had very limited sight still have a licence, Approximately 40,000 seniors who have memory and cognitive problems and difficulty with problem solving still have a driver’s licence, About 20,000 senior citizen drivers with some form of dementia still have a licence.
Ontario recently overhauled its process for senior citizen driver’s licence renewals. The old policy required seniors to only complete a written test. Now, all Ontarians age 80 and older must undergo a mandatory in-class screening process to determine driving eligibility.
While some groups are claiming that the new senior testing procedures for driver’s licenses are discriminatory, the Government of Canada reports the following:
- Roughly 14,000 seniors who had very limited sight still have a licence.
- Rpproximately 40,000 seniors who have memory and cognitive problems and difficulty with problem solving still have a driver’s licence.
- Rbout 20,000 senior citizen drivers with some form of dementia still have a licence.
Adequate visual, cognitive, and auditory capabilities are required in order to operate a vehicle safely. The government hopes that the new exam requirements for seniors will help spot when a driver’s capabilities may be waning.
Rules Before an Ontario Senior Driving Test
When senior citizens go to renew their license, they will now be given an assessment that requires two written tasks.
- Drawing a clock and then a specific time on the clock.
- Crossing out all the letter “Hs” on a list of randomized letters.
This test is an attempt to identify seniors who might have cognitive deficiencies, which could compromise their driving abilities. Drivers will also have to pass a vision test, participate in a group education session, and have their driving record reviewed by the Ministry of Transportation. Drivers will need to be reevaluated every two years. If a driver fails this new exam, he or she will be required to take a driving test."
An unfortunate reality that many don't like to acknowledge. And aviation does not have this sort of specific age related test(although a medical examiner may be trained to look for such symptom and report them).
https://www.preszlerlaw.com/faqs/new-dr ... n-ontario/
