Air Canada Pilots Pull Out

[FL320]

Just passing by - had a lunch today with a good friend who is FO at Air France, year 2: made 11000k€ net this month (includes overtime - basic is 6900€ net/month).

He couldn’t believe the salary offered at AC

[newcomer]

Just passing by - had a lunch today with a good friend who is FO at Air France, year 2: made 11000k€ net this month (includes overtime - basic is 6900€ net/month).

He couldn’t believe the salary offered at AC

So almost 16k CAD...

[digits_]

Just passing by - had a lunch today with a good friend who is FO at Air France, year 2: made 11000k€ net this month (includes overtime - basic is 6900€ net/month).

He couldn’t believe the salary offered at AC

And the average years in the industry of an FO at Air France is likely a fraction of years in the industry an FO at AC has.....

[twa22]

Just passing by - had a lunch today with a good friend who is FO at Air France, year 2: made 11000k€ net this month (includes overtime - basic is 6900€ net/month).

He couldn’t believe the salary offered at AC

And the average years in the industry of an FO at Air France is likely a fraction of years in the industry an FO at AC has.....

First of all, that is completely irrelevant... You want to compare apples to apples, legacy to legacy, this is how you compare, and secondly, how do you actually know how long it takes to get right seat at Air France vs AC? You may be comparing it to today, where 2000 hours may get you in at AC, given the industry is moving at warp speed, but that wasn't the case 5 plus years ago

[dh89]

Who has the most to gain from an ‘industry’ contract? A newbie.

A 25% pay uplift is worth way more over a 30 year career than a 10 year (remaining) career.

Educate.

25% is fuckall im sorry... we can do alot better. Especially at the bottom end. The company can easily afford to pay every captain 50% more today everyday. They just dont. And they love the fact that most pilots are beaten into thinking that they cant.
Now at the bottom end of the pay scale... dont get me started... damn!
Anyways... all for one and one for all. "Historic" gains should mean going beyond historic pay, and early 2000's contracts were part of our history. In my perfect world we can do much better than those!
Trust me, company can afford it. They know it. They dont want you to know or think it.

Best of luck to you all! I hope the pressure tide rises and continues.

[rudder]

Who has the most to gain from an ‘industry’ contract? A newbie.

A 25% pay uplift is worth way more over a 30 year career than a 10 year (remaining) career.

Educate.

25% is fuckall im sorry... we can do alot better. Especially at the bottom end. The company can easily afford to pay every captain 50% more today everyday. They just dont. And they love the fact that most pilots are beaten into thinking that they cant.
Now at the bottom end of the pay scale... dont get me started... damn!
Anyways... all for one and one for all. "Historic" gains should mean going beyond historic pay, and early 2000's contracts were part of our history. In my perfect world we can do much better than those!
Trust me, company can afford it. They know it. They dont want you to know or think it.

Best of luck to you all! I hope the pressure tide rises and continues.

Min 25% is at the top. Flat pay should be limited and at a dramatically higher rate (min 6 figures second year).

The point to illustrate is compounding. It is no different than compound interest. Done correctly a new-hire 2023 with 30 years of service should have a near astronomical career earnings at AC.

[dh89]

Who has the most to gain from an ‘industry’ contract? A newbie.

A 25% pay uplift is worth way more over a 30 year career than a 10 year (remaining) career.

Educate.

25% is fuckall im sorry... we can do alot better. Especially at the bottom end. The company can easily afford to pay every captain 50% more today everyday. They just dont. And they love the fact that most pilots are beaten into thinking that they cant.
Now at the bottom end of the pay scale... dont get me started... damn!
Anyways... all for one and one for all. "Historic" gains should mean going beyond historic pay, and early 2000's contracts were part of our history. In my perfect world we can do much better than those!
Trust me, company can afford it. They know it. They dont want you to know or think it.

Best of luck to you all! I hope the pressure tide rises and continues.

Min 25% is at the top. Flat pay should be limited and at a dramatically higher rate (min 6 figures second year).

The point to illustrate is compounding. It is no different than compound interest. Done correctly a new-hire 2023 with 30 years of service should have a near astronomical career earnings at AC.

Agreed

[altiplano]

Just passing by - had a lunch today with a good friend who is FO at Air France, year 2: made 11000k€ net this month (includes overtime - basic is 6900€ net/month).

He couldn’t believe the salary offered at AC

And the average years in the industry of an FO at Air France is likely a fraction of years in the industry an FO at AC has.....

First of all, that is completely irrelevant... You want to compare apples to apples, legacy to legacy, this is how you compare, and secondly, how do you actually know how long it takes to get right seat at Air France vs AC? You may be comparing it to today, where 2000 hours may get you in at AC, given the industry is moving at warp speed, but that wasn't the case 5 plus years ago

I think you're reading that statement backwards.

[altiplano]

Who has the most to gain from an ‘industry’ contract? A newbie.

A 25% pay uplift is worth way more over a 30 year career than a 10 year (remaining) career.

Educate.

25% is fuckall im sorry... we can do alot better. Especially at the bottom end. The company can easily afford to pay every captain 50% more today everyday. They just dont. And they love the fact that most pilots are beaten into thinking that they cant.
Now at the bottom end of the pay scale... dont get me started... damn!
Anyways... all for one and one for all. "Historic" gains should mean going beyond historic pay, and early 2000's contracts were part of our history. In my perfect world we can do much better than those!
Trust me, company can afford it. They know it. They dont want you to know or think it.

Best of luck to you all! I hope the pressure tide rises and continues.

Min 25% is at the top. Flat pay should be limited and at a dramatically higher rate (min 6 figures second year).

The point to illustrate is compounding. It is no different than compound interest. Done correctly a new-hire 2023 with 30 years of service should have a near astronomical career earnings at AC.

40% year one, 20% more over 2 more years. Plus one year probation and then formula. Plus 10% more for the narrowbodies. Plus FOs back to 65% CA pay. Plus delete the RP position. Plus fix vacation credit. Plus no more optimizing blocks. Plus 5:30 calendar day average. Plus pension is 100% employer paid. Plus a whole lot more, we're worth it and this group is ready to do what it takes to earn it.

[dh89]

25% is fuckall im sorry... we can do alot better. Especially at the bottom end. The company can easily afford to pay every captain 50% more today everyday. They just dont. And they love the fact that most pilots are beaten into thinking that they cant.
Now at the bottom end of the pay scale... dont get me started... damn!
Anyways... all for one and one for all. "Historic" gains should mean going beyond historic pay, and early 2000's contracts were part of our history. In my perfect world we can do much better than those!
Trust me, company can afford it. They know it. They dont want you to know or think it.

Best of luck to you all! I hope the pressure tide rises and continues.

Min 25% is at the top. Flat pay should be limited and at a dramatically higher rate (min 6 figures second year).

The point to illustrate is compounding. It is no different than compound interest. Done correctly a new-hire 2023 with 30 years of service should have a near astronomical career earnings at AC.

40% year one, 20% more over 2 more years. Plus one year probation and then formula. Plus 10% more for the narrowbodies. Plus FOs back to 65% CA pay. Plus delete the RP position. Plus fix vacation credit. Plus no more optimizing blocks. Plus 5:30 calendar day average. Plus pension is 100% employer paid. Plus a whole lot more, we're worth it and this group is ready to do what it takes to earn it.

PREACH!
yeaaaa there's actually alot to fix.... dont know where to start.... dont know how it could have slid so far.
Just trying to read such a contract needs google translate...

[twa22]

And the average years in the industry of an FO at Air France is likely a fraction of years in the industry an FO at AC has.....

First of all, that is completely irrelevant... You want to compare apples to apples, legacy to legacy, this is how you compare, and secondly, how do you actually know how long it takes to get right seat at Air France vs AC? You may be comparing it to today, where 2000 hours may get you in at AC, given the industry is moving at warp speed, but that wasn't the case 5 plus years ago

I think you're reading that statement backwards.

Ha, I clearly was, oops

[Rowdy]

25% is fuckall im sorry... we can do alot better. Especially at the bottom end. The company can easily afford to pay every captain 50% more today everyday. They just dont. And they love the fact that most pilots are beaten into thinking that they cant.
Now at the bottom end of the pay scale... dont get me started... damn!
Anyways... all for one and one for all. "Historic" gains should mean going beyond historic pay, and early 2000's contracts were part of our history. In my perfect world we can do much better than those!
Trust me, company can afford it. They know it. They dont want you to know or think it.

Best of luck to you all! I hope the pressure tide rises and continues.

Min 25% is at the top. Flat pay should be limited and at a dramatically higher rate (min 6 figures second year).

The point to illustrate is compounding. It is no different than compound interest. Done correctly a new-hire 2023 with 30 years of service should have a near astronomical career earnings at AC.

40% year one, 20% more over 2 more years. Plus one year probation and then formula. Plus 10% more for the narrowbodies. Plus FOs back to 65% CA pay. Plus delete the RP position. Plus fix vacation credit. Plus no more optimizing blocks. Plus 5:30 calendar day average. Plus pension is 100% employer paid. Plus a whole lot more, we're worth it and this group is ready to do what it takes to earn it.

Flat pay should simply be abolished. Same work, same equipment same pay. Get a little extra year over years simply for YOS. Not this 4 year shenanigans of 'paying your dues'.

[Ash Ketchum]

I think it would be fair to have 1 year of probationary pay due to the nature of aircraft assignments in PIT (names pulled out of a hat) but that pay should start at least at 100K. No AC pilot should earn less than six figures.

[up on one]

Once again supply and demand will dictate. I would love to see the lowest paid 705 pilot making six figures but let’s be honest with ourselves. Let’s take a look at the 703 operators for example. Many of their captains have the ability to see 150-180k on their T4 assuming they stick around for a full year but we know they all have an application in at AC. AC is actively hiring these low time pilots along with pilots with jet types, jet pic as well as pilots making bank from overseas and that’s the issue. So, I have a question for everyone who honestly believes flat pay will disappear. We need to think about this objectively, not as a pilot but rather someone who will get a big bonus in stock options based on the outcome. If we have pilots still actively applying (and we do)and gladly accepting the worlds lowest airline salary (and they are) why would that be on the bargaining table? What will we as a pilot group give up in our future in exchange for flat pay to help the next generation or will we continue to pass the buck to our kids?

[dontcallmeshirley]

I think it would be fair to have 1 year of probationary pay due to the nature of aircraft assignments in PIT (names pulled out of a hat) but that pay should start at least at 100K. No AC pilot should earn less than six figures.

I have revised my minimum pay expectation to match yours.

[727driver]

Most people applying are doing so to get a seniority number to hedge their bets that flat pay will all but be eliminated on the next contract within the next year and/or a quick upgrade after a year. I would suspect that both bargaining parties are aware that applicants will fall off a cliff once people feel flat pay is here to stay and getting a number north of 5000 will ensure many years of flat pay ahead of you.

[FNGYYZ]

Pretty wild FedEx pilots got 30% raises after already being a top pilot employer and not even hiring

Almost like the tired old mantra of until people stop applying there won't be any pay raises is bunk

"According to the new agreement, FedEx pilots can expect a 30% pay increase, a 30% increase to their legacy pension, and a fully developed and equally valuable company-funded Market-Based Cash Balance Pension to provide a durable replacement for their legacy pension"

[Fanblade]

Once again supply and demand will dictate. I would love to see the lowest paid 705 pilot making six figures but let’s be honest with ourselves. Let’s take a look at the 703 operators for example. Many of their captains have the ability to see 150-180k on their T4 assuming they stick around for a full year but we know they all have an application in at AC. AC is actively hiring these low time pilots along with pilots with jet types, jet pic as well as pilots making bank from overseas and that’s the issue. So, I have a question for everyone who honestly believes flat pay will disappear. We need to think about this objectively, not as a pilot but rather someone who will get a big bonus in stock options based on the outcome. If we have pilots still actively applying (and we do)and gladly accepting the worlds lowest airline salary (and they are) why would that be on the bargaining table? What will we as a pilot group give up in our future in exchange for flat pay to help the next generation or will we continue to pass the buck to our kids?

Real unions don’t buy into supply and demand. United, Delta, American FedEx. Not a single one of them have a pilot supply issue.

Unionism is about the strength that comes from unity and determination.

Unity and determination will dictate what happens to flat salary.

[Hysteria]

Once again supply and demand will dictate. I would love to see the lowest paid 705 pilot making six figures but let’s be honest with ourselves. Let’s take a look at the 703 operators for example. Many of their captains have the ability to see 150-180k on their T4 assuming they stick around for a full year but we know they all have an application in at AC. AC is actively hiring these low time pilots along with pilots with jet types, jet pic as well as pilots making bank from overseas and that’s the issue. So, I have a question for everyone who honestly believes flat pay will disappear. We need to think about this objectively, not as a pilot but rather someone who will get a big bonus in stock options based on the outcome. If we have pilots still actively applying (and we do)and gladly accepting the worlds lowest airline salary (and they are) why would that be on the bargaining table? What will we as a pilot group give up in our future in exchange for flat pay to help the next generation or will we continue to pass the buck to our kids?

Real unions don’t buy into supply and demand. United, Delta, American FedEx. Not a single one of them have a pilot supply issue.

Unionism is about the strength that comes from unity and determination.

Unity and determination will dictate what happens to flat salary.

+1

[RippleRock]

Agreed. Unionism is 100% behind the gains of our southern collegues full stop. It's very short sighted to give the lack of pilot supply any credit whatsoever on the Legacy (large carrier) side of things. (There is a case for the bottom end and Regionals though)

I can see how "the pilot supply issue" keeps coming up. We pilots aren't the brightest bunch. We understand the economic principles that the Company keeps flinging our way, but we fail to understand that they have no real bearing on what we negotiate. The "pilot slice of the operational cost pie" has never been big, so to make it say, 50% larger, wouldn't take much.

This is where ACPA leadership failed us epically. They bought the Company mantra hook line and sinker. Our reps were just smart enough to get us into real trouble. The Company convinced them that they were "operational kingpins", which made them feel "special" and "important". Problem is, they were swimming with sharks, more than eager to take advantage of their gullibility and stupidity. For a decade they were manipulated, just like we were. It got so bad and obvious under MM's arrogant tenure that we finally had enough. Thanks Mike. If there was one single person responsible for turning us so badly off ACPA, it was you.

I'm sure they truly thought they were doing the Membership good, but the proof of their extreme incompetence can be seen every time we look at a pay-check compared to the days lost to earn it. That, among another hundred or so glaring WACON shortcomings.


FWIW......Thank goodness they're gone. Some are making good use of their newfound spare time on more "creative penmanship" ventures. (Lt.)

[flying4dollars]

Most people applying are doing so to get a seniority number to hedge their bets that flat pay will all but be eliminated on the next contract within the next year and/or a quick upgrade after a year. I would suspect that both bargaining parties are aware that applicants will fall off a cliff once people feel flat pay is here to stay and getting a number north of 5000 will ensure many years of flat pay ahead of you.

This is bang on

[thepoors]

Once again supply and demand will dictate. I would love to see the lowest paid 705 pilot making six figures but let’s be honest with ourselves. Let’s take a look at the 703 operators for example. Many of their captains have the ability to see 150-180k on their T4 assuming they stick around for a full year but we know they all have an application in at AC. AC is actively hiring these low time pilots along with pilots with jet types, jet pic as well as pilots making bank from overseas and that’s the issue. So, I have a question for everyone who honestly believes flat pay will disappear. We need to think about this objectively, not as a pilot but rather someone who will get a big bonus in stock options based on the outcome. If we have pilots still actively applying (and we do)and gladly accepting the worlds lowest airline salary (and they are) why would that be on the bargaining table? What will we as a pilot group give up in our future in exchange for flat pay to help the next generation or will we continue to pass the buck to our kids?

Real unions don’t buy into supply and demand. United, Delta, American FedEx. Not a single one of them have a pilot supply issue.

Unionism is about the strength that comes from unity and determination.

Unity and determination will dictate what happens to flat salary.

Fact is pilots (and unions) in the US realize their worth and don't take any shit. Canadian pilots are spineless losers with an inferiority complex who continue to allow management to step all over them. And continue to line up for what are nothing less than embarrassing wawcon.

Exhibit A: WJ pilot group voting 87% yes to just getting back what they've been robbed of for the past 4 years. Gains??...no where to be seen, but they're celebrating like what they've achieved is some victory.

Exhibit B: AC can't fill new hire classes fast enough.

It's sad and pathetic. Wouldn't surprise me if flat pay sticks around, because as a group Canadian pilots are weak willed morons who will take whatever garbage gets tossed their way with a smile and a thank you.

[twa22]

Once again supply and demand will dictate. I would love to see the lowest paid 705 pilot making six figures but let’s be honest with ourselves. Let’s take a look at the 703 operators for example. Many of their captains have the ability to see 150-180k on their T4 assuming they stick around for a full year but we know they all have an application in at AC. AC is actively hiring these low time pilots along with pilots with jet types, jet pic as well as pilots making bank from overseas and that’s the issue. So, I have a question for everyone who honestly believes flat pay will disappear. We need to think about this objectively, not as a pilot but rather someone who will get a big bonus in stock options based on the outcome. If we have pilots still actively applying (and we do)and gladly accepting the worlds lowest airline salary (and they are) why would that be on the bargaining table? What will we as a pilot group give up in our future in exchange for flat pay to help the next generation or will we continue to pass the buck to our kids?

Real unions don’t buy into supply and demand. United, Delta, American FedEx. Not a single one of them have a pilot supply issue.

Unionism is about the strength that comes from unity and determination.

Unity and determination will dictate what happens to flat salary.

Fact is pilots (and unions) in the US realize their worth and don't take any shit. Canadian pilots are spineless losers with an inferiority complex who continue to allow management to step all over them. And continue to line up for what are nothing less than embarrassing wawcon.

Exhibit A: WJ pilot group voting 87% yes to just getting back what they've been robbed of for the past 4 years. Gains??...no where to be seen, but they're celebrating like what they've achieved is some victory.

Exhibit B: AC can't fill new hire classes fast enough.

It's sad and pathetic. Wouldn't surprise me if flat pay sticks around, because as a group Canadian pilots are weak willed morons who will take whatever garbage gets tossed their way with a smile and a thank you.

I'm curious where you work, because you shit in every thread you touch... i'm not here to defend the new Westjet CA, or what's happening with AC and where it will lead, but man, take a break... Westjet is at least moving in the right direction, and the hope is AC will beat WJ, which should move things further along... US regional FO's were making 20k a year around 10 years ago, and now look how far they've come... here's some old links so you can all amuse yourself, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw these pay scales

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... onsin.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... rways.html

Oh, that's regionals... ok, how about the majors, they were better, but not by much...

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

only ones that were paying decent even back then was Delta

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... Lines.html

[dontcallmeshirley]

Fact is pilots (and unions) in the US realize their worth and don't take any shit. Canadian pilots are spineless losers with an inferiority complex who continue to allow management to step all over them. And continue to line up for what are nothing less than embarrassing wawcon.

Exhibit A: WJ pilot group voting 87% yes to just getting back what they've been robbed of for the past 4 years. Gains??...no where to be seen, but they're celebrating like what they've achieved is some victory.

Exhibit B: AC can't fill new hire classes fast enough.

It's sad and pathetic. Wouldn't surprise me if flat pay sticks around, because as a group Canadian pilots are weak willed morons who will take whatever garbage gets tossed their way with a smile and a thank you.

WestJet pilots will be taking home 50% more pay on the bottom end. That is a victory in my mind.

[thepoors]

Real unions don’t buy into supply and demand. United, Delta, American FedEx. Not a single one of them have a pilot supply issue.

Unionism is about the strength that comes from unity and determination.

Unity and determination will dictate what happens to flat salary.

Fact is pilots (and unions) in the US realize their worth and don't take any shit. Canadian pilots are spineless losers with an inferiority complex who continue to allow management to step all over them. And continue to line up for what are nothing less than embarrassing wawcon.

Exhibit A: WJ pilot group voting 87% yes to just getting back what they've been robbed of for the past 4 years. Gains??...no where to be seen, but they're celebrating like what they've achieved is some victory.

Exhibit B: AC can't fill new hire classes fast enough.

It's sad and pathetic. Wouldn't surprise me if flat pay sticks around, because as a group Canadian pilots are weak willed morons who will take whatever garbage gets tossed their way with a smile and a thank you.

I'm curious where you work, because you shit in every thread you touch... i'm not here to defend the new Westjet CA, or what's happening with AC and where it will lead, but man, take a break... Westjet is at least moving in the right direction, and the hope is AC will beat WJ, which should move things further along... US regional FO's were making 20k a year around 10 years ago, and now look how far they've come... here's some old links so you can all amuse yourself, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw these pay scales

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... onsin.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... rways.html

Oh, that's regionals... ok, how about the majors, they were better, but not by much...

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... lines.html

only ones that were paying decent even back then was Delta

http://willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot ... Lines.html

I work somewhere that pays what I'm worth (goes without saying that's not any airline in Canada). I don't have to live in my parents' basement or visit a food bank to feed my kids while being responsible for a 200,000 lbs aircraft with 200+ lives in the back. And I would like to see the people who do, not have to make those kinds of ridiculous trade-offs. That's why I'm mad.

All you've done is highlight that Delta paid better 10 years ago than AC does now...and once again the defeatist attitude of "look how bad it could be." Instead of looking at how quickly they've solved their wage problems in the US and how they continue to improve. Let's not even speak of regionals because if we correct for inflation, add conversion, and factor the present cost of living in Canada, I guarantee Jazz and Encore pilots are making less of a real wage than even those US regionals were back then.

WJ guy is drinking the management line koolaid of "our take home is so much better!" - in reality the union touted 30-40% wage increases and settled for less than half that. AC will do the bare minimum to beat it and we will continue to fall further behind pilots in US - doing the same job for double and triple the pay. ACPA royally fkd a generation of pilots and now that there is an opportunity to right those wrongs and then some, people like you continue with these lukewarm attitudes just bending over to be taken advantage of by the company once again.