Negotiations

[rudder]

We all know your theory. But i haven't seen a single thing to indicate that is the plan, or that there even is a plan.

AC has a plan. It may not be as described above, but they have a plan.

The PAL announcement is part of a plan.

Expanding A220 orders is part of a plan.

Replacing Express with mainline on US routes out of YVR is part of a plan.

Expanding the UA/UA Express codeshare on transborder flying is part of a plan.

Flying CRJ200’s to storage is part of a plan.

There is a plan. Just watch closely. These are just the first steps.

This isn't a plan. It is a reaction to their failure to plan, and now they have to scramble to try and save themselves. Everything we are seeing is a reaction to their utter failure to anticipate the market, or understand their situation they are in. And the PAL is pure desperation that will likely create far bigger problems, in both staffing and legal challenges.

Wearing a life jacket and floating around the ocean after your boat sinks is not an indication of great visionary thinking. And that is what we are seeing here.

AC is planning to have 6000 line pilot positions by 2025 and is hiring at a pace to meet that plan.

What is Jazz doing?

One company has a plan. One is still just a deer in the headlights.

[truedude]

AC has a plan. It may not be as described above, but they have a plan.

The PAL announcement is part of a plan.

Expanding A220 orders is part of a plan.

Replacing Express with mainline on US routes out of YVR is part of a plan.

Expanding the UA/UA Express codeshare on transborder flying is part of a plan.

Flying CRJ200’s to storage is part of a plan.

There is a plan. Just watch closely. These are just the first steps.

This isn't a plan. It is a reaction to their failure to plan, and now they have to scramble to try and save themselves. Everything we are seeing is a reaction to their utter failure to anticipate the market, or understand their situation they are in. And the PAL is pure desperation that will likely create far bigger problems, in both staffing and legal challenges.

Wearing a life jacket and floating around the ocean after your boat sinks is not an indication of great visionary thinking. And that is what we are seeing here.

AC is planning to have 6000 line pilot positions by 2025 and is hiring at a pace to meet that plan.

What is Jazz doing?

One company has a plan. One is still just a deer in the headlights.

We both know Jazz won;t hire unless AC gives Jazz more money. The money needs to come from AC, and the longer they wait, the worse the situation becomes.

[rudder]

This isn't a plan. It is a reaction to their failure to plan, and now they have to scramble to try and save themselves. Everything we are seeing is a reaction to their utter failure to anticipate the market, or understand their situation they are in. And the PAL is pure desperation that will likely create far bigger problems, in both staffing and legal challenges.

Wearing a life jacket and floating around the ocean after your boat sinks is not an indication of great visionary thinking. And that is what we are seeing here.

AC is planning to have 6000 line pilot positions by 2025 and is hiring at a pace to meet that plan.

What is Jazz doing?

One company has a plan. One is still just a deer in the headlights.

We both know Jazz won;t hire unless AC gives Jazz more money. The money needs to come from AC, and the longer they wait, the worse the situation becomes.

You don’t get it. They are not waiting. They are moving on.

[truedude]

AC is planning to have 6000 line pilot positions by 2025 and is hiring at a pace to meet that plan.

What is Jazz doing?

One company has a plan. One is still just a deer in the headlights.

We both know Jazz won;t hire unless AC gives Jazz more money. The money needs to come from AC, and the longer they wait, the worse the situation becomes.

You don’t get it. They are not waiting. They are moving on.

You don't get it. They are reacting while shooting themselves in the foot. And PAL is far from a done deal, and their competition grows each day.

[Little Star]

There is a plan.

Who is going to fly the ES-30 in 2028? It’s not going to be Jazz.

[rudder]

There is a plan.

Who is going to fly the ES-30 in 2028? It’s not going to be Jazz.

Jazz was never going to operate the ES-30 on behalf of AC.

[Little Star]

There is a plan.

Who is going to fly the ES-30 in 2028? It’s not going to be Jazz.

Jazz was never going to operate the ES-30 on behalf of AC.

And hence, the plan.

[rudder]

There is a reality dawning on the industry that there is and will continue to be a shortage of pilots. It isn’t going to get better.

Barriers to entry. Millennial priorities. Lack of training resources.

Scheduled passenger airline aircraft will have to be larger gauge and operate less frequently.

A business plan based on smaller gauged aircraft is more than likely going to fail. Unless of course the proposed pay is equivalent to a NB aircraft.

[truedude]

There is a reality dawning on the industry that there is and will continue to be a shortage of pilots. It isn’t going to get better.

Barriers to entry. Millennial priorities. Lack of training resources.

Scheduled passenger airline aircraft will have to be larger gauge and operate less frequently.

A business plan based on smaller gauged aircraft is more than likely going to fail. Unless of course the proposed pay is equivalent to a NB aircraft.

Of course NB pay is about to get a big uplift too.

[Little Star]

A business plan based on smaller gauged aircraft is more than likely going to fail. Unless of course the proposed pay is equivalent to a NB aircraft.

Not disagreeing that there is a pilot shortage.

AC thinks that by shifting the business to another carrier will reduce labour cost. Labour costs include health care benefits, DC pension, etc.

Also, When PAL operates under the Express banner, it is also to affect the interline agreement with Westjet. AC will be controlling the price, seats availability, frequency, etc.

[CaptDukeNukem]

A business plan based on smaller gauged aircraft is more than likely going to fail. Unless of course the proposed pay is equivalent to a NB aircraft.

Not disagreeing that there is a pilot shortage.

AC thinks that by shifting the business to another carrier will reduce labour cost. Labour costs include health care benefits, DC pension, etc.

Also, When PAL operates under the Express banner, it is also to affect the interline agreement with Westjet. AC will be controlling the price, seats availability, frequency, etc.

Interline is always controlled by the company with whom you’re traveling on. Jazz never had control over where they flew and how often. If I book a ticket on Lufthansa, I’m at their mercy.

I’m sure tickets will be available for travel through AC, operated by PAL.

[yowflyer23]

Out of curiosity, are there any year 1 FO’s on here who would feel comfortable sharing their average net take home pay? What about per diems for a 4 day pairing as well? I’m curious what’s left after the reportedly insane deductions.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Interline is always controlled by the company with whom you’re traveling on. Jazz never had control over where they flew and how often. If I book a ticket on Lufthansa, I’m at their mercy.

I’m sure tickets will be available for travel through AC, operated by PAL.

Depends on whether it's a CPA or not. CPA = Air Canada flight. Code share = PAL flight.

[rudder]

Interline is always controlled by the company with whom you’re traveling on. Jazz never had control over where they flew and how often. If I book a ticket on Lufthansa, I’m at their mercy.

I’m sure tickets will be available for travel through AC, operated by PAL.

Depends on whether it's a CPA or not. CPA = Air Canada flight. Code share = PAL flight.

The press release implied CPA.

Regardless, JAZ ALPA is not a party to the CPA. CHR is. Best JAZ ALPA can do is a grievance within the terms of the CBA, not CPA.

[truedude]

Interline is always controlled by the company with whom you’re traveling on. Jazz never had control over where they flew and how often. If I book a ticket on Lufthansa, I’m at their mercy.

I’m sure tickets will be available for travel through AC, operated by PAL.

Depends on whether it's a CPA or not. CPA = Air Canada flight. Code share = PAL flight.

The press release implied CPA.

Regardless, JAZ ALPA is not a party to the CPA. CHR is. Best JAZ ALPA can do is a grievance within the terms of the CBA, not CPA.

Wonder if there is any way to file a lawsuit or injection as an impacted party? I honestly have no idea. But best to make as much noise and waves as possible.

[airway]

Out of curiosity, are there any year 1 FO’s on here who would feel comfortable sharing their average net take home pay? What about per diems for a 4 day pairing as well? I’m curious what’s left after the reportedly insane deductions.

Per diem for a 4 day pairing is about $385 CAD.


.

[kiaszceski]

Out of curiosity, are there any year 1 FO’s on here who would feel comfortable sharing their average net take home pay? What about per diems for a 4 day pairing as well? I’m curious what’s left after the reportedly insane deductions.

Of course !

$1050 bi weekly take home pay.

per diems depends on where you're based. If based out west, no per diem or very few so don't count on it to pay your bills.
out east you can have about 1500$ or maybe more if you do lot of US flights.

[rudder]

Out of curiosity, are there any year 1 FO’s on here who would feel comfortable sharing their average net take home pay? What about per diems for a 4 day pairing as well? I’m curious what’s left after the reportedly insane deductions.

Of course !

$1050 bi weekly take home pay.

That is pathetic. There is no other way to categorize it. Who pays less than that?

Everybody applying needs to understand this is what they are signing up for.

https://apple.news/Awt7A0_z2SQSlyofhnbdLXQ

[yowflyer23]

Out of curiosity, are there any year 1 FO’s on here who would feel comfortable sharing their average net take home pay? What about per diems for a 4 day pairing as well? I’m curious what’s left after the reportedly insane deductions.

Of course !

$1050 bi weekly take home pay.

per diems depends on where you're based. If based out west, no per diem or very few so don't count on it to pay your bills.
out east you can have about 1500$ or maybe more if you do lot of US flights.

Wow nearly making that much doing survey in a 172

[truedude]

I have to say. After hearing all the people with application's and offers from Westjet these last few days, I am starting to have my doubts that Jazz survives this.

The damage is going to be quite severe in the next two weeks.

[702pipeliner]

I wouldn't be surprised if jazz sees huge movement especially with a lot of the YYC guys. Guys tired of temp basing and pay cut is almost negligible in the short run.

[goleafsgo]

I wouldn't be surprised if jazz sees huge movement especially with a lot of the YYC guys. Guys tired of temp basing and pay cut is almost negligible in the short run.

Not even that much of a paycut. From the roadshow the take home for a year 1 fo is basically the same take home as a year 5 jazz captain

[rudder]

I wouldn't be surprised if jazz sees huge movement especially with a lot of the YYC guys. Guys tired of temp basing and pay cut is almost negligible in the short run.

Not even that much of a paycut. From the roadshow the take home for a year 1 fo is basically the same take home as a year 5 jazz captain

Jazz needs to take both CA and FO rates and just drop the year 1-5 numbers. Old year 6 = new year 1. That leaves a 7 year FO scale and a 12 year CA scale. Even better would be to take the 2025 rates for the purpose of this ‘adjustment’ and make it effective in 2023 (now).

Even this will barely be competitive with the other offers that are out there.

[kiaszceski]

I wouldn't be surprised if jazz sees huge movement especially with a lot of the YYC guys. Guys tired of temp basing and pay cut is almost negligible in the short run.

Not even that much of a paycut. From the roadshow the take home for a year 1 fo is basically the same take home as a year 5 jazz captain

Jazz needs to take both CA and FO rates and just drop the year 1-5 numbers. Old year 6 = new year 1. That leaves a 7 year FO scale and a 12 year CA scale. Even better would be to take the 2025 rates for the purpose of this ‘adjustment’ and make it effective in 2023 (now).

Even this will barely be competitive with the other offers that are out there.

Rudder, you and I know that will never happen until Jazz is shrunk to the right size, and with PAL taking over for the far east routes and YYC getting less and less flying, once we get to 80 tails we'll probably see a raise that will be just enough. While others will start paying decent wages.

Choose your side, I heard Porter is a nice place if one lives in GTA.

[rudder]

Not even that much of a paycut. From the roadshow the take home for a year 1 fo is basically the same take home as a year 5 jazz captain

Jazz needs to take both CA and FO rates and just drop the year 1-5 numbers. Old year 6 = new year 1. That leaves a 7 year FO scale and a 12 year CA scale. Even better would be to take the 2025 rates for the purpose of this ‘adjustment’ and make it effective in 2023 (now).

Even this will barely be competitive with the other offers that are out there.

Rudder, you and I know that will never happen until Jazz is shrunk to the right size, and with PAL taking over for the far east routes and YYC getting less and less flying, once we get to 80 tails we'll probably see a raise that will be just enough. While others will start paying decent wages.

Choose your side, I heard Porter is a nice place if one lives in GTA.

YYZ pilots are leaving for …. Porter, Morningstar, Sunwing, CargoJet, Transat, WestJet, and Flair (when they resume hiring).

YUL pilots leaving for Porter, Sunwing, and Transat.

YYC pilots leaving for WestJet and Flair (when they resume hiring).

YVR pilots have fewer local options.

This ‘status quo’ on basing and staffing will not last. Crews will be placed where they are needed. Bases and rosters can be shrunk via attrition (that should not pose too much of a challenge).

Notice that I did not mention attrition to AC. I understand that there are a handful of Jazz pilots on each PIT course. But attrition to ‘OAL’ will far exceed attrition to AC unless and until the 60% ratio is respected.

Jazz isn’t even putting up a fight. Trying to take a 2015 pay scale and put it up against 2023 reality.