Denying Overtime

[flyingcanuck]

If the new contract is anything less than historic, many recent hire FOs will be taking their talents elsewhere. In a global pilot shortage, there is no justification for 4 years of flat pay.

as one of those, I will be very depressed if I don't see a change in lifestyle/pay. Looks bleak when I think about 30+ years of living like this, lifestyle-wise.

[Fanblade]

And with 2000 cancellations and delays over the long weekend, wasn’t that a good idea?

The mood of the present MEC is that there will be no bargaining capital. There will be no concessions “traded”.

you mean, they assume they won't be getting a much better contract than the actual ? Or i read that wrong

ALPA/ACPA, it doesn't really matter if the faces and attitudes at the top don't change.

ALPA Canada and ALPA National (US) generally take turns muddying and/or complicating what was a pretty straight forward discussion at the table face to face.

Bobcaygeon

Whole sale change at the top.

Muddying or just far more willing to go to impasse?

Man in the sky,

He means we have no more blood to give. No more trading away our QOL in exchange for a raise. No more cost neutral bargaining where we are expected to trade something of equal value to attain a gain somewhere else. Like last years MOA.

That era is over.

[CPU2000]

Agree with your assumption on DB. When I started it boggled my mind how much people- even very junior people- talked about the pension the pension. It’s all pensionable time (which didn’t make any sense under DB but does now, ironically). Living life to retire.

No surprise pay, quality of life, vacation, benefits, all of it suffered all in service of keeping the holy pension. Even more ironically it seems that was the one thing keeping a lid on the other costs. Now that it’s gone…yeah.

+1

Always makes me laugh when the old "well at least we still have a pension!" is spoken from a 777C when US Airlines come up

Totally clueless on the massive uplift US Airlines have been negotiating in the past 5 years and massive higher payment you will get from 18% company paid contributions

They think they may have "saved" their pensions, but they now have an inferior alternate pension for over half the pilots. Good luck getting massive gains when over half are substantially behind in calculated annuities

[alkaseltzer]

If the new contract is anything less than historic, many recent hire FOs will be taking their talents elsewhere. In a global pilot shortage, there is no justification for 4 years of flat pay.

as one of those, I will be very depressed if I don't see a change in lifestyle/pay. Looks bleak when I think about 30+ years of living like this, lifestyle-wise.

6000 pilots to be hired...wondering what they're budgeting for the last 2000+pilots...

[Dias]

There's a couple of things in the contract, or the law, that pilots aren't availing themselves of:
Special Days Off (SDO)
Family Responsibility Leave (FRL)

These are both readily available upon request. Use them if you need them! That's what they're there for. You don't need to feel any guilt.

[flyingcanuck]

There's a couple of things in the contract, or the law, that pilots aren't availing themselves of:
Special Days Off (SDO)
Family Responsibility Leave (FRL)

These are both readily available upon request. Use them if you need them! That's what they're there for. You don't need to feel any guilt.

the problem is they both need ot be approved by a manager, and depending on which one it can be a hassle

[Canadaflyer46]

There's a couple of things in the contract, or the law, that pilots aren't availing themselves of:
Special Days Off (SDO)
Family Responsibility Leave (FRL)

These are both readily available upon request. Use them if you need them! That's what they're there for. You don't need to feel any guilt.

the problem is they both need ot be approved by a manager, and depending on which one it can be a hassle

Even at WJ I haven't heard of any bite back over taking personal days. They're part of the Canada Labour Code. Our guidance from ALPA over here has been to stick to the verbatim reason from the CLC, and avoid giving any extra details.

[Rowdy]

Exactly!

And with 2000 cancellations and delays over the long weekend, wasn’t that a good idea?

The mood of the present MEC is that there will be no bargaining capital. There will be no concessions “traded”.

AC proves time and time again they don't care what happens just that the managing genrals get their way.

Blind faith in ALPA being some messiah is laughable.

Half the AC list is 'new' and won't be pushed around...

You fine folk will have lots of unity, especially when it comes to turning the tables on a 'proper' increase and positive changes to the contract.

There is already work afoot south of the 49th that will massively undermine the AC managements attempts to keep wages low by allowing canucks into their ranks in the US.

ACPA was a complete dumpster fire.

[Ash Ketchum]

And with 2000 cancellations and delays over the long weekend, wasn’t that a good idea?

The mood of the present MEC is that there will be no bargaining capital. There will be no concessions “traded”.

AC proves time and time again they don't care what happens just that the managing genrals get their way.

Blind faith in ALPA being some messiah is laughable.

Half the AC list is 'new' and won't be pushed around...

You fine folk will have lots of unity, especially when it comes to turning the tables on a 'proper' increase and positive changes to the contract.

There is already work afoot south of the 49th that will massively undermine the AC managements attempts to keep wages low by allowing canucks into their ranks in the US.

ACPA was a complete dumpster fire.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots. I have zero loyalty to management and will go where the pay and WLB is best. If that means going to the US, so be it.

[cdnavater]

AC proves time and time again they don't care what happens just that the managing genrals get their way.

Blind faith in ALPA being some messiah is laughable.

Half the AC list is 'new' and won't be pushed around...

You fine folk will have lots of unity, especially when it comes to turning the tables on a 'proper' increase and positive changes to the contract.

There is already work afoot south of the 49th that will massively undermine the AC managements attempts to keep wages low by allowing canucks into their ranks in the US.

ACPA was a complete dumpster fire.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots. I have zero loyalty to management and will go where the pay and WLB is best. If that means going to the US, so be it.

Let’s be honest here, if you could you would already be there and the contract has zero to do with it! You and others could get exactly what you want and if the border opens, many will still go

[Fanblade]

Half the AC list is 'new' and won't be pushed around...

You fine folk will have lots of unity, especially when it comes to turning the tables on a 'proper' increase and positive changes to the contract.

There is already work afoot south of the 49th that will massively undermine the AC managements attempts to keep wages low by allowing canucks into their ranks in the US.

ACPA was a complete dumpster fire.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots. I have zero loyalty to management and will go where the pay and WLB is best. If that means going to the US, so be it.

Let’s be honest here, if you could you would already be there and the contract has zero to do with it! You and others could get exactly what you want and if the border opens, many will still go

For some. Most don’t leave home and family unless the gain is significant. If AC closed the gap to a reasonable point and the border opened I doubt they would have a mass exodus.

[schnitzel2k3]

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots. I have zero loyalty to management and will go where the pay and WLB is best. If that means going to the US, so be it.

Let’s be honest here, if you could you would already be there and the contract has zero to do with it! You and others could get exactly what you want and if the border opens, many will still go

For some. Most don’t leave home and family unless the gain is significant. If AC closed the gap to a reasonable point and the border opened I doubt they would have a mass exodus.

That's on the order of what, 275-350k CAD at the top end as far as difference at any of the majors compared to AC on an average year.

That's an enormous delta, not factoring for lower federal and state taxation rates. Olive branch, healthcare could be a factor for some.

You are correct, likely lots wouldn't uproot for financial only, but there would be enough to put further stress on the industry here.

[RVR6000]

There are actually a handful of pilots that commute from the US. The switch over for them would be the easiest, however after 10-15 years at the company a lot of people can’t just walk away from seniority and start all over again.

[Tbayer2021]

Yeah, anyone that's serious about leaving isn't waiting to see what the new contract brings. It's not going to be anywhere close to US pay and you'd be silly to be giving up hundreds of seniority numbers in the meantime.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots.

This is what you tell yourself to justify kicking the can down the road a little longer till the new contract finally drops and say, "Well its not that bad". Meanwhile, its nowhere close to what you really wanted but you were never going to leave anyways. At least you got to pump your chest a few times though.

[Ash Ketchum]

Yeah, anyone that's serious about leaving isn't waiting to see what the new contract brings. It's not going to be anywhere close to US pay and you'd be silly to be giving up hundreds of seniority numbers in the meantime.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots.

This is what you tell yourself to justify kicking the can down the road a little longer till the new contract finally drops and say, "Well its not that bad". Meanwhile, its nowhere close to what you really wanted but you were never going to leave anyways. At least you got to pump your chest a few times though.

As a matter of fact I am working on my EB-2 NIW petition at the moment but due to my experience (or lack thereof) my lawyers says I may or may not get approved. If I do I will leave to the US regardless of what the new AC contract brings. If anyone has a more surefire way of getting to the US aside from the EB-2 NIW (not counting family or marriage) I am happy to learn. From my understanding none of the US airlines are willing to sponsor Canadians at this point.

[Tbayer2021]

Yeah, anyone that's serious about leaving isn't waiting to see what the new contract brings. It's not going to be anywhere close to US pay and you'd be silly to be giving up hundreds of seniority numbers in the meantime.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots.

This is what you tell yourself to justify kicking the can down the road a little longer till the new contract finally drops and say, "Well its not that bad". Meanwhile, its nowhere close to what you really wanted but you were never going to leave anyways. At least you got to pump your chest a few times though.

As a matter of fact I am working on my EB-2 NIW petition at the moment but due to my experience (or lack thereof) my lawyers says I may or may not get approved. If I do I will leave to the US regardless of what the new AC contract brings. If anyone has a more surefire way of getting to the US aside from the EB-2 NIW (not counting family or marriage) I am happy to learn. From my understanding none of the US airlines are willing to sponsor Canadians at this point.

Well then, I wish you all the luck and hope you get approved soon!

[cdnavater]

Yeah, anyone that's serious about leaving isn't waiting to see what the new contract brings. It's not going to be anywhere close to US pay and you'd be silly to be giving up hundreds of seniority numbers in the meantime.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots.

This is what you tell yourself to justify kicking the can down the road a little longer till the new contract finally drops and say, "Well its not that bad". Meanwhile, its nowhere close to what you really wanted but you were never going to leave anyways. At least you got to pump your chest a few times though.

As a matter of fact I am working on my EB-2 NIW petition at the moment but due to my experience (or lack thereof) my lawyers says I may or may not get approved. If I do I will leave to the US regardless of what the new AC contract brings. If anyone has a more surefire way of getting to the US aside from the EB-2 NIW (not counting family or marriage) I am happy to learn. From my understanding none of the US airlines are willing to sponsor Canadians at this point.

Therefore, you’re original statement that you will quit if you don’t get what you want was false, you will quit if you get approved but if you don’t get approved, does the contract matter.
There is no better option in Canada, I’m doubting you will quit without a better option!

[Ash Ketchum]

Yeah, anyone that's serious about leaving isn't waiting to see what the new contract brings. It's not going to be anywhere close to US pay and you'd be silly to be giving up hundreds of seniority numbers in the meantime.




This is what you tell yourself to justify kicking the can down the road a little longer till the new contract finally drops and say, "Well its not that bad". Meanwhile, its nowhere close to what you really wanted but you were never going to leave anyways. At least you got to pump your chest a few times though.

As a matter of fact I am working on my EB-2 NIW petition at the moment but due to my experience (or lack thereof) my lawyers says I may or may not get approved. If I do I will leave to the US regardless of what the new AC contract brings. If anyone has a more surefire way of getting to the US aside from the EB-2 NIW (not counting family or marriage) I am happy to learn. From my understanding none of the US airlines are willing to sponsor Canadians at this point.

Therefore, you’re original statement that you will quit if you don’t get what you want was false, you will quit if you get approved but if you don’t get approved, does the contract matter.
There is no better option in Canada, I’m doubting you will quit without a better option!

I used to be an engineer. I would quit and do that again. I was treated and paid way better as an engineer than a Canadian airline pilot.

[cdnavater]

As a matter of fact I am working on my EB-2 NIW petition at the moment but due to my experience (or lack thereof) my lawyers says I may or may not get approved. If I do I will leave to the US regardless of what the new AC contract brings. If anyone has a more surefire way of getting to the US aside from the EB-2 NIW (not counting family or marriage) I am happy to learn. From my understanding none of the US airlines are willing to sponsor Canadians at this point.

Therefore, you’re original statement that you will quit if you don’t get what you want was false, you will quit if you get approved but if you don’t get approved, does the contract matter.
There is no better option in Canada, I’m doubting you will quit without a better option!

I used to be an engineer. I would quit and do that again. I was treated and paid way better as an engineer than a Canadian airline pilot.

Ok, fair enough, I’m curious though, long term as an engineer will you make 200k plus. I know that long term AC will pay better than 98% of the jobs in Canada

[hank998899]

Therefore, you’re original statement that you will quit if you don’t get what you want was false, you will quit if you get approved but if you don’t get approved, does the contract matter.
There is no better option in Canada, I’m doubting you will quit without a better option!

I used to be an engineer. I would quit and do that again. I was treated and paid way better as an engineer than a Canadian airline pilot.

Ok, fair enough, I’m curious though, long term as an engineer will you make 200k plus. I know that long term AC will pay better than 98% of the jobs in Canada

I took the pay cut from being an engineer to becoming an airline pilot. I left engineering in my late 20’s and was bringing in $150k+.

[flyingcanuck]

I used to be an engineer. I would quit and do that again. I was treated and paid way better as an engineer than a Canadian airline pilot.

Ok, fair enough, I’m curious though, long term as an engineer will you make 200k plus. I know that long term AC will pay better than 98% of the jobs in Canada

I took the pay cut from being an engineer to becoming an airline pilot. I left engineering in my late 20’s and was bringing in $150k+.

How's it feel now

[QKZXKV]

Half the AC list is 'new' and won't be pushed around...

You fine folk will have lots of unity, especially when it comes to turning the tables on a 'proper' increase and positive changes to the contract.

There is already work afoot south of the 49th that will massively undermine the AC managements attempts to keep wages low by allowing canucks into their ranks in the US.

ACPA was a complete dumpster fire.

Exactly, if I don't get what I want from the new contract I will quit as will many other recently hired AC pilots. I have zero loyalty to management and will go where the pay and WLB is best. If that means going to the US, so be it.

Let’s be honest here, if you could you would already be there and the contract has zero to do with it! You and others could get exactly what you want and if the border opens, many will still go

Yup, there's not much AC can or will do to stop people from heading south... The gap is just too large and the attitudes at AC are too arrogant.

[Rooster69]

Every time one our peers comes in on a day off for VO they are going to end up costing the rest of us money. The Draft pigs always have an excuse for their greed. Some even say that by them flying for double pay they are helping the rest of us. They are a cancer to pilot unity. Other pilots sit back and wonder why they pass on VO only to see the same characters take the flying they passed on.
On a brighter side, at least if most of the pilots hold off on VO now, they can pick up VO after the forthcoming raise! VO totals don’t reset at end of year, but rather in the summer.




Do you think any of the airlines down south tolerate Draft pigs? Look at what unity can bring:


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