Negotiations

[cdnavater]

Well said. It seems like some jazz pilot never understand they are part of the problem here. First, they accepted 39K pay because it was the best choice they had, but cry about low pay right after hired. They voted bad term, bad contract and wondering why jazz is the lowest pay pilots in Canada. And blame AC for it. AC don't owe jazz pilots anything in anyway. You are working for jazz because you choose to. You choose the low pay, bad contract and term, you did all this, not AC.

AC made a choice. In response, my no overtime policy will continue. I wonder which one will cost more money in the end?

I’m curious, what choice do you feel AC made? It wasn’t AC that stopped hiring Jazz pilots, it was Jazz that wouldn’t release them. Honestly, I don’t think AC gives a rat’s ass from where new hires come, as long as they’re qualified.

You say it’s poor pay and reduced flow to AC that slowing people approaching Jazz. Who made that choice? If the current pilot contract at Jazz is the issue, who decided on the terms of the contract? Who voted on those terms?

Yes, times have changed since that contract was penned. I’d say your beef was the lack of foresight at Jazz/CHR and not AC.

AC has a CPA contract with Jazz/CHR. Jazz was unable to fulfill that contract. AC didn’t choose to go to PAL (and possibly CMA) they had to cover the flying on which Jazz reneged.

That Jazz is so willing to release the large number of pilots in the autumn is probably an indicator of the planned size of Jazz come Christmastime.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be angry. (You should). I’m not saying you shouldn’t decline overtime and enjoy your summer. (You should). I’m just wandering if the target of your anger isn’t AC at all.

smooth,
I just want to point out the hypocrisy of your post, you are over in the AC forum saying your were just hired at AC, into the lowest paid starting pay for a mainline airline, you too are part of the problem!
You should also read Fanblades’ post, there is a lot of history on how we got here and AC pilots played a huge role, so get off your high horse!
Thanks Fanblade, it actually feels nice that someone recognizes the situation we were put in, the union and management openly admitted the lowering of the bar would cause recruitment issues down the road, should there be a shortage. However, the shortage was mere myth at the time, had never happened, was always just speculation that never seemed to materialize.
Our union’s standpoint was and is, recruiting is not our problem, seems AC who is paying the bills doesn’t care or can’t care at this point because it will weaken their bargaining with you.
I don’t feel threatened by PAL, I will not willingly make one more concession in my career, and I will support AC pilots any way I can, which so far is zero OT until you have your contract!

[cdnavater]

AC made a choice. In response, my no overtime policy will continue. I wonder which one will cost more money in the end?

I’m curious, what choice do you feel AC made? It wasn’t AC that stopped hiring Jazz pilots, it was Jazz that wouldn’t release them. Honestly, I don’t think AC gives a rat’s ass from where new hires come, as long as they’re qualified.

You say it’s poor pay and reduced flow to AC that slowing people approaching Jazz. Who made that choice? If the current pilot contract at Jazz is the issue, who decided on the terms of the contract? Who voted on those terms?

Yes, times have changed since that contract was penned. I’d say your beef was the lack of foresight at Jazz/CHR and not AC.

AC has a CPA contract with Jazz/CHR. Jazz was unable to fulfill that contract. AC didn’t choose to go to PAL (and possibly CMA) they had to cover the flying on which Jazz reneged.

That Jazz is so willing to release the large number of pilots in the autumn is probably an indicator of the planned size of Jazz come Christmastime.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be angry. (You should). I’m not saying you shouldn’t decline overtime and enjoy your summer. (You should). I’m just wandering if the target of your anger isn’t AC at all.

Based on the email update from the union, the choice AC made was to veto an agreement that Jazz ALPA and Jazz management came to after a year of negotiations, no one knows the details of the agreement just that there was one.
Your viewpoint above is very much lacking in context, AC and Jazz have a CPA that has been renegotiated over many years of commercial pressure applied by AC to bring costs down, what we are left with is the inability to attract pilots to fulfill the obligations under that agreement.
So AC creates the situation that leads to Jazz not being able to provide, goes to PAL for “help” but it’s solely Jazz’s fault!
Btw, most days my animosity is towards AC pilots, I’m working on that but Jazz was once a wholly owned AC company and your union’s decision to allow AC to outsource the flying we did is a DIRECT result of what we have today! Our scope was enshrined in your contract, it was literally the only tool we had but because we didn’t own the tool and you gave it away, there was nothing we could do but to react to the changing environment.
I also thinks it’s quite hilarious that you think Jazz/CHR didn’t foresee this, in fact I know they did. I have had conversations with VPs, two of them, and they were aware of the possibility, I believe they were under the impression AC would come to the table if the situation became problematic. Since wages are a pass through cost, AC has to sign off and appear unwilling to, their response to our agreement was a NO and here is a “pay table we are willing to discuss” who else is there to blame.
Based on our MEC update, we assume the table to be insulting.
I also have to assume any agreement that is being worked on must include some type of extension, otherwise why wouldn’t we just take the extra money! If there were no strings, just here is a raise, I would assume we would take it knowing it’s not enough to fix the problem anyway.
Anyway, I have a hard time believing you are a long time AC pilot, your level of either denial or history leads me to this conclusion!

[Man_in_the_sky]

Well said. It seems like some jazz pilot never understand they are part of the problem here. First, they accepted 39K pay because it was the best choice they had, but cry about low pay right after hired. They voted bad term, bad contract and wondering why jazz is the lowest pay pilots in Canada. And blame AC for it. AC don't owe jazz pilots anything in anyway. You are working for jazz because you choose to. You choose the low pay, bad contract and term, you did all this, not AC.

There is some history being lost here.

The reason Jazz has the contract they do is directly related to ACPA giving AC a gun to the head of the Jazz pilots in the form of a scope change back at the start of Skyregional.

Remember. ACPA knew exactly what AC had planned with Sky. They even endorsed the plan. Historical note. Same group from TA1/FOS. All recalled eventually to end up in management.

So what I am saying is this. If you want to point fingers about the Jazz CBA? Just remember three fingers point back at us. The Jazz CBA is a result of a four way toxic mess.

This is all rear view mirror stuff. Time to move on and address the problems rather than play the blame game.

Remember one of the more caustic nuances of cost neutral bargaining. Instead of giving something of equal value in the trade. You could give something of value from another pilot group instead.

For clarity. I am AC and not proud of our history. I am 1000% behind doing what we can do to support the Jazz pilots in their quest to undue the past.

There is that and so much more.

Remember who agreed to accept the GGN pilots DOH to allow AC to terminate the problematic GGN CPA. Remember who took the SKV pilots DOH so AC could assimilate Express flying under one AOC.

The Jazz pilots have done nothing but support AC in their commercial objectives. And what do they receive in return? PAL.

CHR and AC need to sort out their relationship first. How big? How long? How much?

Factor in that being the lowest paid Part 705 pilots will not make any plan involving Jazz work.

Don't wanna be too politic there... But probably 99% of jazz pilots were against SKV DOH... Don't tap their back and say ''they did this for the commercial good of AC''. It's been pushed down their troath and lots of OG jazz are still bitter when they fly with '' sky guys''...

[smooth]

I choose AC knowing their 4 year flat pay, do I like the pay cut coming here? No I don’t. But I’m NOT complaining about it knowing what offer I signed. I choose AC because after 4 years, or early upgrade, you will have the best pay scale and job security in Canadian aviation. My problem is, pilots crying about their pay AFTER accepting its term and offer.

Canadian aviation has the best opportunities RIGHT NOW than ever. WJ/Flair/porter/Transat/Cargojet/Morningstar. If you don’t like where you are now, look elsewhere. It’s a free market, no one forced you to be anywhere.

Most of my jazz friends left to elsewhere, but people I talked to who worked at jazz are appreciated the opportunity jazz gave them. They went to jazz because they like jazz. And it was the best option for them at the time.

Well said. It seems like some jazz pilot never understand they are part of the problem here. First, they accepted 39K pay because it was the best choice they had, but cry about low pay right after hired. They voted bad term, bad contract and wondering why jazz is the lowest pay pilots in Canada. And blame AC for it. AC don't owe jazz pilots anything in anyway. You are working for jazz because you choose to. You choose the low pay, bad contract and term, you did all this, not AC.

I’m curious, what choice do you feel AC made? It wasn’t AC that stopped hiring Jazz pilots, it was Jazz that wouldn’t release them. Honestly, I don’t think AC gives a rat’s ass from where new hires come, as long as they’re qualified.

You say it’s poor pay and reduced flow to AC that slowing people approaching Jazz. Who made that choice? If the current pilot contract at Jazz is the issue, who decided on the terms of the contract? Who voted on those terms?

Yes, times have changed since that contract was penned. I’d say your beef was the lack of foresight at Jazz/CHR and not AC.

AC has a CPA contract with Jazz/CHR. Jazz was unable to fulfill that contract. AC didn’t choose to go to PAL (and possibly CMA) they had to cover the flying on which Jazz reneged.

That Jazz is so willing to release the large number of pilots in the autumn is probably an indicator of the planned size of Jazz come Christmastime.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be angry. (You should). I’m not saying you shouldn’t decline overtime and enjoy your summer. (You should). I’m just wandering if the target of your anger isn’t AC at all.

smooth,
I just want to point out the hypocrisy of your post, you are over in the AC forum saying your were just hired at AC, into the lowest paid starting pay for a mainline airline, you too are part of the problem!
You should also read Fanblades’ post, there is a lot of history on how we got here and AC pilots played a huge role, so get off your high horse!
Thanks Fanblade, it actually feels nice that someone recognizes the situation we were put in, the union and management openly admitted the lowering of the bar would cause recruitment issues down the road, should there be a shortage. However, the shortage was mere myth at the time, had never happened, was always just speculation that never seemed to materialize.
Our union’s standpoint was and is, recruiting is not our problem, seems AC who is paying the bills doesn’t care or can’t care at this point because it will weaken their bargaining with you.
I don’t feel threatened by PAL, I will not willingly make one more concession in my career, and I will support AC pilots any way I can, which so far is zero OT until you have your contract!

[truedude]

I choose AC knowing their 4 year flat pay, do I like the pay cut coming here? No I don’t. But I’m NOT complaining about it knowing what offer I signed. I choose AC because after 4 years, or early upgrade, you will have the best pay scale and job security in Canadian aviation. My problem is, pilots crying about their pay AFTER accepting its term and offer.

Canadian aviation has the best opportunities RIGHT NOW than ever. WJ/Flair/porter/Transat/Cargojet/Morningstar. If you don’t like where you are now, look elsewhere. It’s a free market, no one forced you to be anywhere.

Most of my jazz friends left to elsewhere, but people I talked to who worked at jazz are appreciated the opportunity jazz gave them. They went to jazz because they like jazz. And it was the best option for them at the time.

Well said. It seems like some jazz pilot never understand they are part of the problem here. First, they accepted 39K pay because it was the best choice they had, but cry about low pay right after hired. They voted bad term, bad contract and wondering why jazz is the lowest pay pilots in Canada. And blame AC for it. AC don't owe jazz pilots anything in anyway. You are working for jazz because you choose to. You choose the low pay, bad contract and term, you did all this, not AC.

smooth,
I just want to point out the hypocrisy of your post, you are over in the AC forum saying your were just hired at AC, into the lowest paid starting pay for a mainline airline, you too are part of the problem!
You should also read Fanblades’ post, there is a lot of history on how we got here and AC pilots played a huge role, so get off your high horse!
Thanks Fanblade, it actually feels nice that someone recognizes the situation we were put in, the union and management openly admitted the lowering of the bar would cause recruitment issues down the road, should there be a shortage. However, the shortage was mere myth at the time, had never happened, was always just speculation that never seemed to materialize.
Our union’s standpoint was and is, recruiting is not our problem, seems AC who is paying the bills doesn’t care or can’t care at this point because it will weaken their bargaining with you.
I don’t feel threatened by PAL, I will not willingly make one more concession in my career, and I will support AC pilots any way I can, which so far is zero OT until you have your contract!

What you seem to fail to appreciate it why that crap contract was signed. Encore places a massive preasure on regional airlines, along with AC pilots giving up the exclusivity on tier 2 flying.

Also, it was AC that violated flow, not Jazz, no matter what the VP of Flight ops rants to New hire classes.

And that is the main issue. AC has a vp of flight ops the believes the regional feeder airline should have a cost structure comparable to US regionals did 15 years ago, and is aggressively fighting reality to not have to pay. Jazz knows they need to pay more, have for a long time. But under the CPA, pay is a flow through cost. The issue is AC, and they are paying a hefty price in failing to deal with the issue. And I will ensure I don't pick up any over time. What is one canceled flight of customer compensation worth compared to paying a market wage?

[cdnavater]

I choose AC knowing their 4 year flat pay, do I like the pay cut coming here? No I don’t. But I’m NOT complaining about it knowing what offer I signed. I choose AC because after 4 years, or early upgrade, you will have the best pay scale and job security in Canadian aviation. My problem is, pilots crying about their pay AFTER accepting its term and offer.

Canadian aviation has the best opportunities RIGHT NOW than ever. WJ/Flair/porter/Transat/Cargojet/Morningstar. If you don’t like where you are now, look elsewhere. It’s a free market, no one forced you to be anywhere.

Most of my jazz friends left to elsewhere, but people I talked to who worked at jazz are appreciated the opportunity jazz gave them. They went to jazz because they like jazz. And it was the best option for them at the time.

Well said. It seems like some jazz pilot never understand they are part of the problem here. First, they accepted 39K pay because it was the best choice they had, but cry about low pay right after hired. They voted bad term, bad contract and wondering why jazz is the lowest pay pilots in Canada. And blame AC for it. AC don't owe jazz pilots anything in anyway. You are working for jazz because you choose to. You choose the low pay, bad contract and term, you did all this, not AC.

smooth,
I just want to point out the hypocrisy of your post, you are over in the AC forum saying your were just hired at AC, into the lowest paid starting pay for a mainline airline, you too are part of the problem!
You should also read Fanblades’ post, there is a lot of history on how we got here and AC pilots played a huge role, so get off your high horse!
Thanks Fanblade, it actually feels nice that someone recognizes the situation we were put in, the union and management openly admitted the lowering of the bar would cause recruitment issues down the road, should there be a shortage. However, the shortage was mere myth at the time, had never happened, was always just speculation that never seemed to materialize.
Our union’s standpoint was and is, recruiting is not our problem, seems AC who is paying the bills doesn’t care or can’t care at this point because it will weaken their bargaining with you.
I don’t feel threatened by PAL, I will not willingly make one more concession in my career, and I will support AC pilots any way I can, which so far is zero OT until you have your contract!

I responded in the other thread, best of luck, appears I misunderstood your point

[rudder]

I also have to assume any agreement that is being worked on must include some type of extension, otherwise why wouldn’t we just take the extra money! If there were no strings, just here is a raise, I would assume we would take it knowing it’s not enough to fix the problem anyway.

I don’t think that an extension would form part of the discussion.

2035 will likely remain the conclusion in the current CPA and the Jazz Pilot CBA. What might be part of the discussion is an immediate reduction in minimum fleet under the CPA. I could see the number ‘80’ getting moved forward from January 2026 to now.

There are approximately 1060 active Jazz line pilots. That is sufficient to staff 80-88 fully utilized airframes. AC can choose to have more Express airframes at Jazz, but the daily utilization will be sub-optimum.

Jazz will lose 150-200 more pilots in 2023. Hiring for the remainder of 2023 will likely not exceed that number so the pilot ranks will not increase and stand a fair chance of further decreasing.

It seems that a plan based on 1000-1100 Jazz line pilots is a ‘best case’ plan going forward. But attracting or retaining a pilot population of 1000-1100 will be entirely predicated on offering adequate compensation.

The smaller that Jazz gets the easier it might be to replace it. I am certain that AC is well aware of that.

[cdnavater]

I also have to assume any agreement that is being worked on must include some type of extension, otherwise why wouldn’t we just take the extra money! If there were no strings, just here is a raise, I would assume we would take it knowing it’s not enough to fix the problem anyway.

I don’t think that an extension would form part of the discussion.

2035 will likely remain the conclusion in the current CPA and the Jazz Pilot CBA. What might be part of the discussion is an immediate reduction in minimum fleet under the CPA. I could see the number ‘80’ getting moved forward from January 2026 to now.

There are approximately 1060 active Jazz line pilots. That is sufficient to staff 80-88 fully utilized airframes. AC can choose to have more Express airframes at Jazz, but the daily utilization will be sub-optimum.

Jazz will lose 150-200 more pilots in 2023. Hiring for the remainder of 2023 will likely not exceed that number so the pilot ranks will not increase and stand a fair chance of further decreasing.

It seems that a plan based on 1000-1100 Jazz line pilots is a ‘best case’ plan going forward. But attracting or retaining a pilot population of 1000-1100 will be entirely predicated on offering adequate compensation.

The smaller that Jazz gets the easier it might be to replace it. I am certain that AC is well aware of that.

Ok, so if an extension is not part of the discussions what is the problem?
If I offer you 1000 dollars no strings attached you would take it, if you think you can get 2000 you’ll try but still wouldn’t you take the 1000?
My question then, what are the strings, why not take the offer on the table if not for some type of quid pro quo, I mean seriously we don’t have to do anything but watch the implosion. Is Jazz ALPA holding out for more on principal or are we being asked to give up too much for what they are offering.
We apparently came to an agreement AC didn’t like for likely the obvious reason but it would be great to know what the ask is.
Ie; are we giving up the flow for higher wages, is that what the survey asked for, if so, then yes hold your ground but again there obviously has to be something we are giving up in exchange for gains elsewhere otherwise we would just say thanks and take what they offered.

[Nick678]

I also have to assume any agreement that is being worked on must include some type of extension, otherwise why wouldn’t we just take the extra money! If there were no strings, just here is a raise, I would assume we would take it knowing it’s not enough to fix the problem anyway.

I don’t think that an extension would form part of the discussion.

2035 will likely remain the conclusion in the current CPA and the Jazz Pilot CBA. What might be part of the discussion is an immediate reduction in minimum fleet under the CPA. I could see the number ‘80’ getting moved forward from January 2026 to now.

There are approximately 1060 active Jazz line pilots. That is sufficient to staff 80-88 fully utilized airframes. AC can choose to have more Express airframes at Jazz, but the daily utilization will be sub-optimum.

Jazz will lose 150-200 more pilots in 2023. Hiring for the remainder of 2023 will likely not exceed that number so the pilot ranks will not increase and stand a fair chance of further decreasing.

It seems that a plan based on 1000-1100 Jazz line pilots is a ‘best case’ plan going forward. But attracting or retaining a pilot population of 1000-1100 will be entirely predicated on offering adequate compensation.

The smaller that Jazz gets the easier it might be to replace it. I am certain that AC is well aware of that.

Ok, so if an extension is not part of the discussions what is the problem?
If I offer you 1000 dollars no strings attached you would take it, if you think you can get 2000 you’ll try but still wouldn’t you take the 1000?
My question then, what are the strings, why not take the offer on the table if not for some type of quid pro quo, I mean seriously we don’t have to do anything but watch the implosion. Is Jazz ALPA holding out for more on principal or are we being asked to give up too much for what they are offering.
We apparently came to an agreement AC didn’t like for likely the obvious reason but it would be great to know what the ask is.
Ie; are we giving up the flow for higher wages, is that what the survey asked for, if so, then yes hold your ground but again there obviously has to be something we are giving up in exchange for gains elsewhere otherwise we would just say thanks and take what they offered.

I’m wondering the same thing, extra money no matter how little with no strings attached would probably just be accepted. It wouldn’t fix retention but would be nice in the mean time.

I and others suspected they wanted the flow grievance to disappear and flow rate reduced going forward but I spoke with a rep who said the grievance is filed and they have scheduled it for the summer.

[Fanblade]

And that is the main issue. AC has a vp of flight ops the believes the regional feeder airline should have a cost structure comparable to US regionals did 15 years ago, and is aggressively fighting reality to not have to pay. Jazz knows they need to pay more, have for a long time. But under the CPA, pay is a flow through cost. The issue is AC, and they are paying a hefty price in failing to deal with the issue.

Truedude,

I can’t speak to what the VP Of Flight Ops believes or thinks about Jazz or AC pilot compensation. Yes he seems to have forgotten what his own worth looked like pre Bankruptcy. I can say this though, he isn’t the logjam preventing a needed contract at Jazz. AC flight ops doesn’t hold that kind of decision making power. The decision is above him. Whether the VP of flight ops believes what he is saying or not, he is simply following direction.

Which at the moment is no money for anyone. Rousseau’s team has taken a clear stance that they will resist what has happened in the US, even to the point of pain. In some cases substantial pain. This is going to be a fight to the point where they have exhausted every conceivable option, before they pay market rates.

This includes.

-Suspending routes
-Parking Aircraft
-Cancelling flights

They are all however short term measures. They can not continue indefinitely.

Wait them out. They have a line in the sand somewhere. You won’t find it until you trip over it.

[rudder]

Ok, so if an extension is not part of the discussions what is the problem?
If I offer you 1000 dollars no strings attached you would take it, if you think you can get 2000 you’ll try but still wouldn’t you take the 1000?
My question then, what are the strings, why not take the offer on the table if not for some type of quid pro quo, I mean seriously we don’t have to do anything but watch the implosion. Is Jazz ALPA holding out for more on principal or are we being asked to give up too much for what they are offering.
We apparently came to an agreement AC didn’t like for likely the obvious reason but it would be great to know what the ask is.
Ie; are we giving up the flow for higher wages, is that what the survey asked for, if so, then yes hold your ground but again there obviously has to be something we are giving up in exchange for gains elsewhere otherwise we would just say thanks and take what they offered.

I think from previous JAZ MEC communications the topics being discussed were not just pay rates. Pay rates were on the ALPA list, not the company list, at least pay adjustments for all Jazz pilots (company was originally looking only at starting pay rates).

So, if an agreement was reached between Jazz and ALPA, then one can presume that it included all relevant topics. If the parties are still in the ‘proposal’ phase of discussions, then clearly the matters are not fully resolved.

The only specific info that should be relevant to Jazz pilots is an MOA that they get to vote on. The rest is just noise. Duelling bulletins. Rhetoric. Spin.

As of July 18, 2023 status quo prevails. And Jazz pilots should make career decisions based on that.

[androids]

There are a lot of comments regarding what VP Flt Ops says or thinks or otherwise comments on regarding all things relevant to the topic in this thread...

In general a VP Flt Ops (or VP of any organization for that matter) pulls little to no weight whatsoever in determining an operations overall course of path, strategic manpower resource decision making and contract negotiations.

There is a tremendous amount of resistance and a VERY firm line that has been well defined by key stakeholders (shareholders) of both AC and Chorus - there are VERY clear directions and marching orders on the desk of the Chairmans, CEOs and Directors within both organizations. Nothing the pilots do will have any affect on the guidance being followed. Trust me, the resolve has been and will continue to be solid when it comes to this.

ALPA or no ALPA - it changes nothing at Jazz and will change nothing at AC. The next generation of compensation increase (net) whenever or however it eventually comes to be will be based on the 10 year rolling average inflation (minus) -0.8% to -1.5%. This will make the face value on paper %+ gains seem like big wins for 99% of pilots who don't have the insight or lack understanding of how this game has worked since the 1990s.

Do the math - feel free to debunk this.

My best guess is 2025 earliest.

On a side note. The golden age of being a pilot has long since past. Regardless of the path taken to the top of ones flying career the net outcome all things considered puts a Canadian pilot (and most others in the world) no further ahead than a truck driver, bus driver, train driver, ferry driver - pension or no pension. There is a well known "complex" that exists within most pilots chasing the lifelong carrot that somehow draws blinders or just completely ignores this fact. Everything in life gets delayed chasing this carrot - house, family, kids, divorce etc.. the sacrifices are massive. Very very hard for pilots to see or understand this until they reach their 50's, by then the damage has already been done.

[truedude]

There is a tremendous amount of resistance and a VERY firm line that has been well defined by key stakeholders (shareholders) of both AC and Chorus - there are VERY clear directions and marching orders on the desk of the Chairmans, CEOs and Directors within both organizations. Nothing the pilots do will have any affect on the guidance being followed. Trust me, the resolve has been and will continue to be solid when it comes to this.

Well then I hope the shareholders and stakeholders enjoy a dysfunctional AC with lots of late and canceled flights, increased competition and eroding market share. Because that is what they are going to get. Along with a hostile pilot group.

[Stu Pidasso]

On a side note. The golden age of being a pilot has long since past. Regardless of the path taken to the top of ones flying career the net outcome all things considered puts a Canadian pilot (and most others in the world) no further ahead than a truck driver, bus driver, train driver, ferry driver - pension or no pension. There is a well known "complex" that exists within most pilots chasing the lifelong carrot that somehow draws blinders or just completely ignores this fact. Everything in life gets delayed chasing this carrot - house, family, kids, divorce etc.. the sacrifices are massive. Very very hard for pilots to see or understand this until they reach their 50's, by then the damage has already been done.

That is only in Canada, because we collectively let it happen. Together with the Socialist Agenda of "we're all equal" Pilots have been dragged down to the benefit of all the unskilled labor running around the Airline. Plus the Airlines are nothing more that an ATB for the Peoples Republic of Canukistan to tax to death, then toss in the outrageous Airport Authorities cash grab.

Christ - the clerk in charge of parking at Pearson is a six figure career.

Most certainly not the case south of the border, unless you haven't been paying attention. US Airline Pilots certainly aren't equal to the occupations you mention.

[accountant]

On a side note. The golden age of being a pilot has long since past. Regardless of the path taken to the top of ones flying career the net outcome all things considered puts a Canadian pilot (and most others in the world) no further ahead than a truck driver, bus driver, train driver, ferry driver - pension or no pension. There is a well known "complex" that exists within most pilots chasing the lifelong carrot that somehow draws blinders or just completely ignores this fact. Everything in life gets delayed chasing this carrot - house, family, kids, divorce etc.. the sacrifices are massive. Very very hard for pilots to see or understand this until they reach their 50's, by then the damage has already been done.

That is only in Canada, because we collectively let it happen. Together with the Socialist Agenda of "we're all equal" Pilots have been dragged down to the benefit of all the unskilled labor running around the Airline. Plus the Airlines are nothing more that an ATB for the Peoples Republic of Canukistan to tax to death, then toss in the outrageous Airport Authorities cash grab.

Christ - the clerk in charge of parking at Pearson is a six figure career.

Most certainly not the case south of the border, unless you haven't been paying attention. US Airline Pilots certainly aren't equal to the occupations you mention.

How many clerks in charge of parking? 1-3 max?

How many pilots?

This is a financial exercise.

If it costs less to cancel a flight than run it, they will cancel the flight and deal with the repercussions later.

Reality - you want a flight, you pay for it.

Until it costs AC more to cancel the flight than run it, they don't care if your wages are subpar.

[rudder]

Until it costs AC more to cancel the flight than run it, they don't care if your wages are subpar.

And that is why pilots unionize.

[Outlaw58]

On a side note. The golden age of being a pilot has long since past. Regardless of the path taken to the top of ones flying career the net outcome all things considered puts a Canadian pilot (and most others in the world) no further ahead than a truck driver, bus driver, train driver, ferry driver - pension or no pension. There is a well known "complex" that exists within most pilots chasing the lifelong carrot that somehow draws blinders or just completely ignores this fact. Everything in life gets delayed chasing this carrot - house, family, kids, divorce etc.. the sacrifices are massive. Very very hard for pilots to see or understand this until they reach their 50's, by then the damage has already been done.

Interesting.

The appraisal of the pilot profession made in this post (and this thread) and the gloomy picture it paints is squarely rooted in the assumption that the pilot profession does not exist if you aren't an airline pilot. That a pilot's career is meaningless unless it culminates in reaching the highest seniority at one of the majors.

Once you let go of that paradigm, the pilot profession takes an entirely new meaning. And I for one can say that I am well in my 50s, undamaged, and still giggle like a little kid every time I pop on top of the clouds to a view that never gets old.

I'll never come close to hold a high seniority number at a major. And yet I have a had a great life and flying career! How bout that??

58

PS: While writing this I forgot the point i was trying to make.

Young new pilots entering the profession are being brainwashed to think like this and perpetuates this fallacy that the pilot profession isn't what it used to be. The AIRLINE profession isn't what it used to be. But FLYING? That has not changed

[Fanblade]

There are a lot of comments regarding what VP Flt Ops says or thinks or otherwise comments on regarding all things relevant to the topic in this thread...

In general a VP Flt Ops (or VP of any organization for that matter) pulls little to no weight whatsoever in determining an operations overall course of path, strategic manpower resource decision making and contract negotiations.

There is a tremendous amount of resistance and a VERY firm line that has been well defined by key stakeholders (shareholders) of both AC and Chorus - there are VERY clear directions and marching orders on the desk of the Chairmans, CEOs and Directors within both organizations. Nothing the pilots do will have any affect on the guidance being followed. Trust me, the resolve has been and will continue to be solid when it comes to this.

ALPA or no ALPA - it changes nothing at Jazz and will change nothing at AC. The next generation of compensation increase (net) whenever or however it eventually comes to be will be based on the 10 year rolling average inflation (minus) -0.8% to -1.5%. This will make the face value on paper %+ gains seem like big wins for 99% of pilots who don't have the insight or lack understanding of how this game has worked since the 1990s.

Do the math - feel free to debunk this.

My best guess is 2025 earliest.

On a side note. The golden age of being a pilot has long since past. Regardless of the path taken to the top of ones flying career the net outcome all things considered puts a Canadian pilot (and most others in the world) no further ahead than a truck driver, bus driver, train driver, ferry driver - pension or no pension. There is a well known "complex" that exists within most pilots chasing the lifelong carrot that somehow draws blinders or just completely ignores this fact. Everything in life gets delayed chasing this carrot - house, family, kids, divorce etc.. the sacrifices are massive. Very very hard for pilots to see or understand this until they reach their 50's, by then the damage has already been done.

The statement in bold indicates you don’t understand the process. Strike/lockout for AC pilots could be as early as December of this year, realistically January/February, but highly unlikely later than the end of Q1 2024.

The idea that we will continue with the past few decades trend of below inflation raises is quite frankly ridiculous. The whole reason ACPA no longer exists is because of the history you describe. AC pilots have had enough. No more losses. Instead recapture the losses of the last two decades.

The pilots will do whatever it takes. ALPA will support doing whatever it takes.

[cdnavater]

There are a lot of comments regarding what VP Flt Ops says or thinks or otherwise comments on regarding all things relevant to the topic in this thread...

In general a VP Flt Ops (or VP of any organization for that matter) pulls little to no weight whatsoever in determining an operations overall course of path, strategic manpower resource decision making and contract negotiations.

There is a tremendous amount of resistance and a VERY firm line that has been well defined by key stakeholders (shareholders) of both AC and Chorus - there are VERY clear directions and marching orders on the desk of the Chairmans, CEOs and Directors within both organizations. Nothing the pilots do will have any affect on the guidance being followed. Trust me, the resolve has been and will continue to be solid when it comes to this.

ALPA or no ALPA - it changes nothing at Jazz and will change nothing at AC. The next generation of compensation increase (net) whenever or however it eventually comes to be will be based on the 10 year rolling average inflation (minus) -0.8% to -1.5%. This will make the face value on paper %+ gains seem like big wins for 99% of pilots who don't have the insight or lack understanding of how this game has worked since the 1990s.

Do the math - feel free to debunk this.

My best guess is 2025 earliest.

On a side note. The golden age of being a pilot has long since past. Regardless of the path taken to the top of ones flying career the net outcome all things considered puts a Canadian pilot (and most others in the world) no further ahead than a truck driver, bus driver, train driver, ferry driver - pension or no pension. There is a well known "complex" that exists within most pilots chasing the lifelong carrot that somehow draws blinders or just completely ignores this fact. Everything in life gets delayed chasing this carrot - house, family, kids, divorce etc.. the sacrifices are massive. Very very hard for pilots to see or understand this until they reach their 50's, by then the damage has already been done.

The statement in bold indicates you don’t understand the process. Strike/lockout for AC pilots could be as early as December of this year, realistically January/February, but highly unlikely later than the end of Q1 2024.

The idea that we will continue with the past few decades trend of below inflation raises is quite frankly ridiculous. The whole reason ACPA no longer exists is because of the history you describe. AC pilots have had enough. No more losses. Instead recapture the losses of the last two decades.

The pilots will do whatever it takes. ALPA will support doing whatever it takes.

Just want to say, if anyone knows the process it’s rudder, won’t detail that but if you know who he is you would know that.
I also do thank you for support and will support AC pilots anyway I can, it’s time we work together but AC can extend your negotiations by making progress but not enough to make an agreement. If you are making progress you will continue negotiating until you stop making progress, could that extend out to 2025 who knows, maybe he meant 2024, I’m sure he’ll chime in.
That being said, regardless of any progress, if you put enough pressure on them, this will obviously speed things up so hold your ground and make sure any pilot taking overtime understands how they are affecting their summer enjoyment! Days off are very very important to a happy home life!

[rudder]

Just want to say, if anyone knows the process it’s rudder, won’t detail that but if you know who he is you would know that.
I also do thank you for support and will support AC pilots anyway I can, it’s time we work together but AC can extend your negotiations by making progress but not enough to make an agreement. If you are making progress you will continue negotiating until you stop making progress, could that extend out to 2025 who knows, maybe he meant 2024, I’m sure he’ll chime in.
That being said, regardless of any progress, if you put enough pressure on them, this will obviously speed things up so hold your ground and make sure any pilot taking overtime understands how they are affecting their summer enjoyment! Days off are very very important to a happy home life!

For greater clarity - AC will be in a ‘self help’ position sometime in 2024. Eligibility will be based on when the conciliation phase concludes.

As for Jazz, a closed CBA means no deadlines/no self help/ no guarantee for change.

External pressure should apply on both properties. Jazz more than AC.

The honeymoon phase of pilot labour costs is coming to a close everywhere. AC and Jazz cannot pretend they are immune.

[cdnavater]

Just want to say, if anyone knows the process it’s rudder, won’t detail that but if you know who he is you would know that.
I also do thank you for support and will support AC pilots anyway I can, it’s time we work together but AC can extend your negotiations by making progress but not enough to make an agreement. If you are making progress you will continue negotiating until you stop making progress, could that extend out to 2025 who knows, maybe he meant 2024, I’m sure he’ll chime in.
That being said, regardless of any progress, if you put enough pressure on them, this will obviously speed things up so hold your ground and make sure any pilot taking overtime understands how they are affecting their summer enjoyment! Days off are very very important to a happy home life!

For greater clarity - AC will be in a ‘self help’ position sometime in 2024. Eligibility will be based on when the conciliation phase concludes.

As for Jazz, a closed CBA means no deadlines/no self help/ no guarantee for change.

External pressure should apply on both properties. Jazz more than AC.

The honeymoon phase of pilot labour costs is coming to a close everywhere. AC and Jazz cannot pretend they are immune.

Rudder, maybe you remember, I seem to recall our long term contract had five reopening dates, all were cost neutral except one which wages could be negotiated based on inflation and was subject to arbitration, given how far behind inflation we are this should obviously have some affect on the current talks.
I believe this is the next opener, sometime this year or maybe 2024, am I correct?

[rudder]

Rudder, maybe you remember, I seem to recall our long term contract had five reopening dates, all were cost neutral except one which wages could be negotiated based on inflation and was subject to arbitration, given how far behind inflation we are this should obviously have some affect on the current talks.
I believe this is the next opener, sometime this year or maybe 2024, am I correct?

Contract 8 - July 01, 2029

[cdnavater]

Rudder, maybe you remember, I seem to recall our long term contract had five reopening dates, all were cost neutral except one which wages could be negotiated based on inflation and was subject to arbitration, given how far behind inflation we are this should obviously have some affect on the current talks.
I believe this is the next opener, sometime this year or maybe 2024, am I correct?

Contract 8 - July 01, 2029

Well, we should be good and behind by then, I thought it was sooner!

[rudder]

Rudder, maybe you remember, I seem to recall our long term contract had five reopening dates, all were cost neutral except one which wages could be negotiated based on inflation and was subject to arbitration, given how far behind inflation we are this should obviously have some affect on the current talks.
I believe this is the next opener, sometime this year or maybe 2024, am I correct?

Contract 8 - July 01, 2029

Well, we should be good and behind by then, I thought it was sooner!

I would be surprised if more than 25% of the Jazz pilots on the property today will be there on that date.

[cdnavater]

Contract 8 - July 01, 2029

Well, we should be good and behind by then, I thought it was sooner!

I would be surprised if more than 25% of the Jazz pilots on the property today will be there on that date.

I agree, a couple hundred retirements by then, I should be top 200 and the amount of pilots between me and the 2015 hires is not that many anymore