American Airlines TA in jeopardy due to UAL.

[cjp]

Just keep outdoing each other...

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-07-18/

CHICAGO, July 18 (Reuters) - American Airlines' (AAL.O) pilot union has warned that the ratification of the company's new contract deal is in "jeopardy" as United Airlines (UAL.O) has raised the benchmark with its own deal, according to a union memo seen by Reuters.

American pilots are due to start voting next week on a new four-year deal that provides for a pay increase of about 42% and other benefits.

But the Allied Pilots Association (APA), which represents over 15,000 American pilots, said the proposed pay rates as well as some quality-of-life items in the agreement pale in comparison with those in United's preliminary deal.

Management is fully aware that the proposed UAL (United) deal has now put the ratification of our TA (tentative agreement) in jeopardy," the union said in the memo sent out to American pilots on July 16.

It asked the company to further improve the contract to "meet the new industry standards" if it wants to have a deal that can be ratified by the pilots.

"Surely AA (American Airlines) management cannot expect our pilots to accept an agreement that puts us behind our contemporaries at other airlines for at least the next four years," the union said.

A spokesperson for American Airlines said the company will work with the union to make sure its pilots are taken care of.

United's four-year pilot deal offers cumulative pay raises of 34.5% to about 40%. It also includes provisions such as increased sick time, more days off and restrictions on involuntary and some standby assignments as the company seeks to encourage pilots to become junior captains.

Dennis Tajer, a spokesman for American's pilots union, said United's contract will lead to at least a 2% pay gap between United and American pilots. United's back pay provisions are also better than what American has provided in its pilot deal, he said.

United's contract offers more days off for junior pilots and sick time than American's, Tajer said.

"Reality of the marketplace has changed," he said, adding the contract deal in its current shape "will not encourage new pilots to come to American."

Airline unions negotiate their contracts in a pattern bargaining process where a deal at one carrier acts as a benchmark for other companies.

[JHR]

What a joke Canada is. Would never have the balls to do this here.

[Tbayer2021]

What a joke Canada is. Would never have the balls to do this here.

Nah, we'd rather help out the team and pitch in with a little grooming. /s

I don't think complacency and apathy are apt descriptors anymore.

[Aspiredtofly]

What's the TA payrate for UA?

[rudder]

Interesting.

In Canada, it has historically been a race to the bottom. In a handful of cases, it still is.

Meanwhile in the US…… no threat of strike. No threat of government intervention. 40% raises with de facto ‘me too’ clauses.

Canada is a joke.

[TFTMB heavy]

Canadian pilots have not been in a position to do any sort of pattern bargaining in the last decade or two. With AC doing a full reopened for the first time in nearly a decade perhaps the tides will turn?

[JHR]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

[rudder]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

Just watch how the BC longshoremen dispute is handled by Trudeau and you will get a preview of what might be in store at AC.

Polievre has already made it clear he supports back-to-work legislation. MP’s like flying J class back and forth to YOW.

[JHR]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

Just watch how the BC longshoremen dispute is handled by Trudeau and you will get a preview of what might be in store at AC.

Polievre has already made it clear he supports back-to-work legislation. MP’s like flying J class back and forth to YOW.

And there will certainly be no sympathy from the flying public. Might even win Dear Leader some more votes!

[Airbrake]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

Just watch how the BC longshoremen dispute is handled by Trudeau and you will get a preview of what might be in store at AC.

Polievre has already made it clear he supports back-to-work legislation. MP’s like flying J class back and forth to YOW.

My Polievre was just on a WestJet flight to Stampede the other day. He was row 17. Not J class at all.

[cjp]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

Just watch how the BC longshoremen dispute is handled by Trudeau and you will get a preview of what might be in store at AC.

Polievre has already made it clear he supports back-to-work legislation. MP’s like flying J class back and forth to YOW.

My Polievre was just on a WestJet flight to Stampede the other day. He was row 17. Not J class at all.

He has a bit of an image to maintain as to avoid the pre-election hypocrite conjecture being lobbed his way by Trudeau and Freeland.

Continues to play his cards right and it'll be Challenger 650 soon enough.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Just watch how the BC longshoremen dispute is handled by Trudeau and you will get a preview of what might be in store at AC.

Polievre has already made it clear he supports back-to-work legislation. MP’s like flying J class back and forth to YOW.

My Polievre was just on a WestJet flight to Stampede the other day. He was row 17. Not J class at all.

He has a bit of an image to maintain as to avoid the pre-election hypocrite conjecture being lobbed his way by Trudeau and Freeland.

Continues to play his cards right and it'll be Challenger 650 soon enough.

I once sat next to a senator in J class that literally said she would refuse a ticket south of row 4.

[cjp]

My Polievre was just on a WestJet flight to Stampede the other day. He was row 17. Not J class at all.

He has a bit of an image to maintain as to avoid the pre-election hypocrite conjecture being lobbed his way by Trudeau and Freeland.

Continues to play his cards right and it'll be Challenger 650 soon enough.

I once sat next to a senator in J class that literally said she would refuse a ticket south of row 4.

I absolutely believe it.

[RippleRock]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

A few of the big mistakes made were MR taking a 233% raise, and an upper management memo that alluded to their pay being "on par" with their American counterparts. Delta and United were used specifically as a comparator metric.

If ALPA fails to use these extremely damning points when arguing compensation, it would be a grave error. I would like to proudly wear my hat in a customs line with AM/Del/Unt pilots around me. I'm prepared to go to the wall for it. If you aren't, let me know and I'll list VO today.

JT is in power until 2025, so no threat from Polly. This will be long past by then.

[newlygrounded]

He has a bit of an image to maintain as to avoid the pre-election hypocrite conjecture being lobbed his way by Trudeau and Freeland.

Continues to play his cards right and it'll be Challenger 650 soon enough.

I once sat next to a senator in J class that literally said she would refuse a ticket south of row 4.

I absolutely believe it.

He's telling the truth, I'm the senator!

[smooth]

And this is why US pilots deserve better pay than Canadian pilots

[smooth]

Here you go, UA's new pay rate

What's the TA payrate for UA?

[twa22]

Here you go, UA's new pay rate

What's the TA payrate for UA?

At first I didn't believe that was real since it includes types they don't/never operated such as the A380, but I found the link to the full AIP

https://upa23.com/

Those rates are insane... year 12 777 CA at 421.72... couldn't find the MMG, but assuming 75 hours, that's 31,629 a month or 379,548 a year just in BASE pay

[smooth]

In case you didn't know, any US regional FO is making more than our major here in Canada. My friend at Envoy(AA regional) was making $92 USD on the right seat. Once they have 750hr on type E175. They switched to CA pay($160 USD) on the right seat, for retention purposes.

Here you go, UA's new pay rate

What's the TA payrate for UA?

At first I didn't believe that was real since it includes types they don't/never operated such as the A380, but I found the link to the full AIP

https://upa23.com/

Those rates are insane... year 12 777 CA at 421.72... couldn't find the MMG, but assuming 75 hours, that's 31,629 a month or 379,548 a year just in BASE pay

[pelmet]

The AC agreement will be a disappointment just like WJ was. Mark my words. It won't even be close to what the Americans get but people will say what a win it was. Same BS as every other Canadian airline.

Just watch how the BC longshoremen dispute is handled by Trudeau and you will get a preview of what might be in store at AC.

Polievre has already made it clear he supports back-to-work legislation. MP’s like flying J class back and forth to YOW.

My Polievre was just on a WestJet flight to Stampede the other day. He was row 17. Not J class at all.

I was on a flight with trudeau before he became PM. He waited until all were on board and then walked past us all in economy to his seat at near the back. A couple of old grannies beside me were impressed and no doubt voted for the economic destruction/ and woke BS we have gotten from him. Doubt it had any detrimental effect on the grannies though.

Am still waiting for when he is no longer PM to find out where he sits then. Bets anyone?

[twa22]

In case you didn't know, any US regional FO is making more than our major here in Canada. My friend at Envoy(AA regional) was making $92 USD on the right seat. Once they have 750hr on type E175. They switched to CA pay($160 USD) on the right seat, for retention purposes.

Here you go, UA's new pay rate

At first I didn't believe that was real since it includes types they don't/never operated such as the A380, but I found the link to the full AIP

https://upa23.com/

Those rates are insane... year 12 777 CA at 421.72... couldn't find the MMG, but assuming 75 hours, that's 31,629 a month or 379,548 a year just in BASE pay

Oh yes I am aware, considering around 10-15 years ago, a new FO at envoy and the likes was making 20-25k a year, they have done very, very well in the US... funny how the tides have turned, where the US was once one of the worst paying locations on earth for pilots, is now one of the best... meanwhile, all the legacy airlines around the world were paying handsomely back then, and now, they either still pay the same, or worse

[braaap Braap]

Oh yes I am aware, considering around 10-15 years ago, a new FO at envoy and the likes was making 20-25k a year, they have done very, very well in the US... funny how the tides have turned, where the US was once one of the worst paying locations on earth for pilots, is now one of the best... meanwhile, all the legacy airlines around the world were paying handsomely back then, and now, they either still pay the same, or worse

Supply and Demand - that's what it all comes down to.

[BTD]

Oh yes I am aware, considering around 10-15 years ago, a new FO at envoy and the likes was making 20-25k a year, they have done very, very well in the US... funny how the tides have turned, where the US was once one of the worst paying locations on earth for pilots, is now one of the best... meanwhile, all the legacy airlines around the world were paying handsomely back then, and now, they either still pay the same, or worse

Supply and Demand - that's what it all comes down to.

Indeed, but the low pay of the past created the limited supply of today.

[braaap Braap]

Oh yes I am aware, considering around 10-15 years ago, a new FO at envoy and the likes was making 20-25k a year, they have done very, very well in the US... funny how the tides have turned, where the US was once one of the worst paying locations on earth for pilots, is now one of the best... meanwhile, all the legacy airlines around the world were paying handsomely back then, and now, they either still pay the same, or worse

Supply and Demand - that's what it all comes down to.

Indeed, but the low pay of the past created the limited supply of today.

That and the 1500 rule that got implemented which created a loftier bar to jump over than the 200 hrs + 25 multi they were requiring back then

[RippleRock]

Supply and Demand - that's what it all comes down to.

Indeed, but the low pay of the past created the limited supply of today.

That and the 1500 rule that got implemented which created a loftier bar to jump over than the 200 hrs + 25 multi they were requiring back then

Not ONE US major carrier has had a problem finding pilots. Not ONE.

This 1500 hour rule may affect the Regionals, but it has ZERO bearing on the gains at the Majors level. Their gains can be attributed to them KNOWING THEIR WORTH....and them HOLDING THE LINE.

Until we do that, and FOLLOW THEIR LEAD TO THE LETTER, and act cohesively as a SINGLE UNITED bargaining unit, we will be the bottom feeders of North American Aviation.

Anyone acting alone, or outside "perceived or direct" Union initiatives are rot, and are the enemy. They jeopardize ANY forward movement on the WACON front and weaken us as a bargaining unit.