rudder wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:53 am
Jazz FA’s offered LOA/RTB for the remainder of 2023.
Looks like there is a plan. Jazz is getting smaller.
LOA/RTB for FA's??? Am I to understand this means there are too many of them, because there are too many flights being cancelled/up gauged to AC?
What it means is that AC has recalibrated the block hours that Jazz will fly for the remainder of 2023. And that even with FA attrition, there are too many Jazz FA’s for the planned flying. Up until recently, Jazz was hiring (a lot of) FA’s.
Everybody keeps saying that these things are ‘temporary’ (PAL/FA reductions), but are they?
One can only presume that with AC flow resumption in September and the Porter announcement that JAZ Pilot attrition rates are increasing, not decreasing.
And the corporate response? Pay the same. Shrink Jazz.
rudder wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:53 am
Jazz FA’s offered LOA/RTB for the remainder of 2023.
Looks like there is a plan. Jazz is getting smaller.
LOA/RTB for FA's??? Am I to understand this means there are too many of them, because there are too many flights being cancelled/up gauged to AC?
What it means is that AC has recalibrated the block hours that Jazz will fly for the remainder of 2023. And that even with FA attrition, there are too many Jazz FA’s for the planned flying. Up until recently, Jazz was hiring (a lot of) FA’s.
Everybody keeps saying that these things are ‘temporary’ (PAL/FA reductions), but are they?
One can only presume that with AC flow resumption in September and the Porter announcement that JAZ Pilot attrition rates are increasing, not decreasing.
And the corporate response? Pay the same. Shrink Jazz.
Not that PAL will be able to staff either... go to PAL or go to Porter... tough choice.
We have had way to many FAs outwest for a year now. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. But it is voluntary so far.
They can shrink us only so much. Given the memo published about their winter sched out west being screwed by having to cover regional flying, I would argue they have already pushed it too far.
But they can burn Jazz to the ground for all I care, I won't be bullied into accepting less than we are worth ever again.
Yep crew by shrinking. I know one F/A taking a leave . I think if an Aug 15 system bid happens it could be very disruptive or destructive. Calgary DHs everywhere so will they close the base I see ACs winter schedule starting in November has no RJs out of YVR going to San Diego, San Francisco or Denver but at least we can do Kelowna and Kamloops ! Maybe the West will be DHing to YZ all winter?
rudder wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:53 am
Jazz FA’s offered LOA/RTB for the remainder of 2023.
Looks like there is a plan. Jazz is getting smaller.
LOA/RTB for FA's??? Am I to understand this means there are too many of them, because there are too many flights being cancelled/up gauged to AC?
What it means is that AC has recalibrated the block hours that Jazz will fly for the remainder of 2023. And that even with FA attrition, there are too many Jazz FA’s for the planned flying. Up until recently, Jazz was hiring (a lot of) FA’s.
Everybody keeps saying that these things are ‘temporary’ (PAL/FA reductions), but are they?
One can only presume that with AC flow resumption in September and the Porter announcement that JAZ Pilot attrition rates are increasing, not decreasing.
And the corporate response? Pay the same. Shrink Jazz.
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:13 am
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:13 am
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
Well this is an interesting development and fits in with what I heard a short while ago, the next few months will be challenging but Jazz will persevere in some manner.
It could still fit with the discussion we are having in the Porter thread about purchase and merger, devalue Jazz to the point where Chorus unloads the asset dragging it’s core business down for pennies or even hand them the keys with lease agreements for now and future aircraft.
Hold on to your hat, this is going to be a bumpy ride!
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:13 am
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
Rudder as always, thank you for the insightful info
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:13 am
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:13 am
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
If they do close YYC I wonder if they realize they’ll be handing lots of pilots over to WestJet
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
If they do close YYC I wonder if they realize they’ll be handing lots of pilots over to WestJet
People need to start to make ‘fact based’ decisions about their future.
Pay at Jazz is a ‘fact’.
Decisions AC has taken about western flying and the YYC non-hub are a ‘fact’.
The PAL CPA is a ‘fact’.
Hope is not a plan. There is nothing to complain about when what you expected to happen actually happens.
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:13 am
I don't even know what else to say to that other then I don't think this is sustainable for very long
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
Any reduction just means even more pilots leave. But nothing would surprise me at this point, since those in charge don't seem to have even a basic understanding of the situation they find themselves in.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
If they do close YYC I wonder if they realize they’ll be handing lots of pilots over to WestJet
People need to start to make ‘fact based’ decisions about their future.
Pay at Jazz is a ‘fact’.
Decisions AC has taken about western flying and the YYC non-hub are a ‘fact’.
The PAL CPA is a ‘fact’.
Hope is not a plan. There is nothing to complain about when what you expected to happen actually happens.
Yup. Get ahead of the 8-ball.
When I was at jazz flying around on the E1…
People would always say to me…. “I’m gonna wait till the E2 arrives from brazil.” Then when it showed up, it was…”jazz gonna improve the contract.”
Some of those same people are still hanging on the “hope” as rudder mentioned.
Despite all of the Kumbaya rhetoric, one can only presume that AC will be pressuring CHR on the CPA front. Whatever form that will take remains to be determined. The PAL initiative may just be the first shot across the bow.
Jazz may only have a sustainable pilot population below 1000. And even that number will be dependant upon some meaningful movement on the compensation front. What does that equate to in terms of block hours? Airframes?
Everything is geared to peak summer flying levels. Summer 2023 will shortly be in the history books. The next equipment bid will be about summer 2024. That should be more illustrative of the future at Jazz.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
If they do close YYC I wonder if they realize they’ll be handing lots of pilots over to WestJet
You mean the pilots that are basically forced to move to a temp base in YYZ, (for months…. Or eternity), aren’t already looking at other options?
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
If they do close YYC I wonder if they realize they’ll be handing lots of pilots over to WestJet
You mean the pilots that are basically forced to move to a temp base in YYZ, (for months…. Or eternity), aren’t already looking at other options?
Rudder said it best; inaction is a choice
I'm sure this alone has cost them at least 20 pilots.
It’s all part of the plan. They know exactly what they’re doing and how the shuffle affects the employees. If I had to guess , AC will continue to put metal on jazz routes going forward if they can’t keep up. It will all change again in several years. It always does.
PA-18 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:17 pm
It’s all part of the plan. They know exactly what they’re doing and how the shuffle affects the employees. If I had to guess , AC will continue to put metal on jazz routes going forward if they can’t keep up. It will all change again in several years. It always does.
They have no idea what they are doing, except hoping something happens that means they don't have to pay pilots. Aside from that there is no plan.
I'll be stunned if the YYC base survives the next bid. The latest AC addition is YYC-YWG leaving the RJ to just operate YEG. Q has very few departures too.
Also will be surprised if YVR doesn't reduce.
If they do close YYC I wonder if they realize they’ll be handing lots of pilots over to WestJet
People need to start to make ‘fact based’ decisions about their future.
Pay at Jazz is a ‘fact’.
Decisions AC has taken about western flying and the YYC non-hub are a ‘fact’.
The PAL CPA is a ‘fact’.
Hope is not a plan. There is nothing to complain about when what you expected to happen actually happens.
I think this is the single best piece of advice on this forum if people take nothing else away from this...
Up until the latest POE pay/recruitment initiative, one could have argued that there were around 500 active Jazz pilots that were never going to leave. Now that 500 number is no longer realistic. Most can go to POE as DEC and either maintain or increase their pay rate. Many did the same by moving to FLAIR.
Similarly, most of those 500 had the opportunity to go to AC over the years and chose not to. An offer of employment at AC - even via merger- is not what most of them are looking for.
Inserting a merger scenario into any discussion with the mainline pilots is a poison pill. There are many other joint initiatives that would have a far higher possibility of success.
The reality right now is POE is playing offence, AC is playing defence, and Jazz is not even playing. They are sitting in the stands watching the game.
Hope is not a strategy and inaction is a choice.
And while all of this is going on, individual pilots should be making decisions that are best for them selves based on all current available information and circumstances. Certainly things may change, but the game is going on and there is no pause button.
I agree with most of what you say fairly often, I just think this time you might be wrong. The poison pill is exactly why AC could be considering this route, it will divide the groups who will now be looking to protect their members best interest.
As for the 500, I agree, most of them are/were not considering AC because they would have lost too much in any flow/pml scenario. A merger would not be that, it would have to consider all that, we would not be “new hires” and all that goes with that.
I ask you this, with presumably 5 years to go for your retirement and a merger announcement, would you go to Porter or stick it out and see what happens.
How many of the current Jazz pilot roster would leave if they were looking at a seniority number, whatever that looks like or roll the dice with Porter and join AC down the road as a new hire.
I believe at this point the only real option AC has if they want Jazz(aircraft) to remain as a going concern is to buy it and merge it into the operations, the other extremely unlikely option is a wage increase enough to keep pilots on property operating 76/78 seat aircraft. Which scenario is cheaper for AC, that will answer the question of what direction they might be heading.
Cdnaviator, with all due respect I think you’re giving Jazz and the Jazz pilot group way more credit than they have.
I get it, you want a merger with AC to happen real bad, it would be the best case scenario for and everyone still at Jazz. I agree with you and (as an ex Jazz guy) I certainly hope it happens.
Unfortunately, Jazz doesn’t have as much pull as they used to in their relationship with AC and AC is slowly putting distance between them and Jazz. Flow has stalled, negotiations with pay have stalled, reduced flying across the country, LOA’s being offered to FA’s… the list goes on.
I hate to say it, but take the emotion out of the equation and look at the situation through AC’s eyes. It’s doesn’t look good for Jazz.
I could see AC buying Porter long before they even consider buying Jazz. Porter is a direct threat to AC at the moment and AC is actively putting the 220, Max and Rouge on a lot of Jazz routes and bringing that flying in-house.
AC is treating Jazz as a necessary evil, they’re actively cutting them out as quickly as they can.
As I said, I certainly hope I’m wrong and Jazz comes out of this significantly better for it. Unfortunately the reality of the situation is much different when you take the emotion out of it and look at it from a business perspective. AC doesn’t give a sh!t about causing confusion in the pilot ranks, pitting the unions against each other or any other scenario that would disrupt the “pilot group”. All AC cares about is money and the share holders… that’s what drives their decision making.
For anyone considering joining Jazz I hope it is only because you’ve exhausted all other options. Jazz is quickly becoming a dead-end career opportunity and it’ll cause more harm than good.
IMO
Also, this is a Porter thread. Best to bring this conversation back to the appropriate place.
Agreed, just to say that I am not using emotional thinking, I’m thinking logically and with over 30 years of industry experience for my personal analysis.
However, your thought on replacing Jazz with the 220s, look to the south, why are they paying so much more to keep the small jets going? Why pay that if they don’t serve a purpose? Why not just let them die on their own, the part you haven’t or aren’t considering is AC is in a predicament, they can’t pay us 20-30% more while they are trying to keep you from attaining those same gains.
With the plans Porter has for its growth and new terminal, I sincerely doubt it’s for sale and if it were, it won’t be cheap.
But, I’ll continue this in the Jazz thread
I agree with most of what you say fairly often, I just think this time you might be wrong. The poison pill is exactly why AC could be considering this route, it will divide the groups who will now be looking to protect their members best interest.
As for the 500, I agree, most of them are/were not considering AC because they would have lost too much in any flow/pml scenario. A merger would not be that, it would have to consider all that, we would not be “new hires” and all that goes with that.
I ask you this, with presumably 5 years to go for your retirement and a merger announcement, would you go to Porter or stick it out and see what happens.
How many of the current Jazz pilot roster would leave if they were looking at a seniority number, whatever that looks like or roll the dice with Porter and join AC down the road as a new hire.
I believe at this point the only real option AC has if they want Jazz(aircraft) to remain as a going concern is to buy it and merge it into the operations, the other extremely unlikely option is a wage increase enough to keep pilots on property operating 76/78 seat aircraft. Which scenario is cheaper for AC, that will answer the question of what direction they might be heading.
Cdnaviator, with all due respect I think you’re giving Jazz and the Jazz pilot group way more credit than they have.
I get it, you want a merger with AC to happen real bad, it would be the best case scenario for and everyone still at Jazz. I agree with you and (as an ex Jazz guy) I certainly hope it happens.
Unfortunately, Jazz doesn’t have as much pull as they used to in their relationship with AC and AC is slowly putting distance between them and Jazz. Flow has stalled, negotiations with pay have stalled, reduced flying across the country, LOA’s being offered to FA’s… the list goes on.
I hate to say it, but take the emotion out of the equation and look at the situation through AC’s eyes. It’s doesn’t look good for Jazz.
I could see AC buying Porter long before they even consider buying Jazz. Porter is a direct threat to AC at the moment and AC is actively putting the 220, Max and Rouge on a lot of Jazz routes and bringing that flying in-house.
AC is treating Jazz as a necessary evil, they’re actively cutting them out as quickly as they can.
As I said, I certainly hope I’m wrong and Jazz comes out of this significantly better for it. Unfortunately the reality of the situation is much different when you take the emotion out of it and look at it from a business perspective. AC doesn’t give a sh!t about causing confusion in the pilot ranks, pitting the unions against each other or any other scenario that would disrupt the “pilot group”. All AC cares about is money and the share holders… that’s what drives their decision making.
For anyone considering joining Jazz I hope it is only because you’ve exhausted all other options. Jazz is quickly becoming a dead-end career opportunity and it’ll cause more harm than good.
IMO
Also, this is a Porter thread. Best to bring this conversation back to the appropriate place.
Agreed, just to say that I am not using emotional thinking, I’m thinking logically and with over 30 years of industry experience for my personal analysis.
However, your thought on replacing Jazz with the 220s, look to the south, why are they paying so much more to keep the small jets going? Why pay that if they don’t serve a purpose? Why not just let them die on their own, the part you haven’t or aren’t considering is AC is in a predicament, they can’t pay us 20-30% more while they are trying to keep you from attaining those same gains.
With the plans Porter has for its growth and new terminal, I sincerely doubt it’s for sale and if it were, it won’t be cheap.
But, I’ll continue this in the Jazz thread
PS; I would much prefer to keep my seniority at Jazz, the AC merger scenario does not likely improve my situation, perhaps the benefit of knowing I’m not going to be unemployed again 10 years from retirement but that’s about it.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:59 am
PS; I would much prefer to keep my seniority at Jazz, the AC merger scenario does not likely improve my situation, perhaps the benefit of knowing I’m not going to be unemployed again 10 years from retirement but that’s about it.
In the event that AC absorbed Jazz, even if AC pilots aren't willing to give some credit for seniority to Jazz pilots and send them BOTL, I'm sure there would be 5-10 year fences put up so new hire AC pilots wouldn't be able to go top of the captain list on the Q or RJ and vice versa, 35 year Jazz captains wouldn't be able to bid 777 captain. Seeing as how both companies are ALPA, I'm sure they would respect the time and service put in by senior Jazz pilots and find an amicable solution. I mean Jazz ALPA isn't dealing with ACPA anymore so I would expect some reasonability in negotiations in the event of a merger or take over. By the time the fences come down, most of the senior Jazz guys would be retired anyways. I would think it would be the most fair solution in a merger scenario.
fixnfly wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:15 am
Seeing as how both companies are ALPA, I'm sure they would respect the time and service put in by senior Jazz pilots and find an amicable solution. I mean Jazz ALPA isn't dealing with ACPA anymore so I would expect some reasonability in negotiations in the event of a merger or take over. By the time the fences come down, most of the senior Jazz guys would be retired anyways. I would think it would be the most fair solution in a merger scenario.
Never in the history of airline mergers has the union to which one belongs, had any bearing in the arbitrated outcome. Never. And …. I have studied hundreds of North American airline mergers. Not to mention, the only Canadian arbitrated merger where the outcome was DOH was between different unions.
Comments like on this thread make me wonder. Do Jazz pilots, really think there is going to be a “merger” or “take over” between Jazz and Air Canada? I hope they are not planning their future on such an unlikely fantasy.
I know Jazz pilots really, really, really want a merger with Air Canada. But there is zero economic reason for either airline to do so. But if they are really going for a home run, pie in the sky, fantasy …. go for top dog. Pretend you’re merging with Delta Air Lines, they’re ALPA too. DOH, right?
This is a big problem at the moment. Lots of senior guys at Jazz are hoping for a merger or something to justify their YOS and commitment to the brand. They don’t want to accept that they may have to walk away from all the years they’ve invested in the airline.
I get it, I truly do.
Some airlines (WJ, Encore, Flair, Porter) are focussing on rapid expansion at different levels. And then there’s AC and their handling of Jazz.
Two completely different sides of the spectrum. For everyone saying AC has no clue what they’re doing, I think this is incredibly naive.
I believe AC knows exactly what they’re doing and it certainly will not favour Jazz pilots.
The writing is on the wall. I really hope Jazz pilots can see this for what it is.
As Rudder says, “HOPE” is not a strategy you should be basing your career on at this point.
A lot of us on the outside looking in can all see it. This is a relationship going bad REAL fast.
I would say for the most part I'm an optimistic person.
I've been with jazz a while and I'm a commuter to YYZ for the left seat. I love jazz and can say from my resume it's one of the best places I've worked.
But with everything going on and have already gone through a company downsizing I've decided I should consider taking my skills elsewhere. Ac doesn't help things and already I avoid commuting on the mother ship because of their treatment of jazz guys.
Tons of high end experience is leaving bases like yvr and yyc due what is going on.
