How to build PIC/CX while an FO

[Me262]

750hr TT employed in a 704/705 as an FO.

Problem is: still need PIC time, night CX and day CX PIC for ATPL requirements. No instructor rating. Let's say under supervision is not an option.

What are some options in the YVR area to not be stuck forever in the right seat because no ATPL due to not enough PIC, day/night CX PIC?

[digits_]

Renting a plane would likely be the most realistic option.

[Bede]

Rent a plane. Realistically it's the only option at this point.

I don't want to crap on you, but your story should serve as a cautionary tale. I have heard this story from A LOT of pilots: they get a job offer on a decent size airplane straight out of school. It's a great starting job until they realize that they can never upgrade. Then they're stuck as an FO. When they apply for jobs as PIC, they can't get hired because the operators know that they're only in it for a few months until they can get their ATPL.

A year or so ago I spoke to a friend of my daughter's. She had 2 job offers: the first as an FO at a 704 operator. The second one flying a C206 and eventually the Navajo. The first was a "better" job but she turned it down for the second. She planned to get her PIC time and then get a job with a 704 operator and get a quick upgrade. Smart thinking.

[ZBBYLW]

750hr TT employed in a 704/705 as an FO.

Problem is: still need PIC time, night CX and day CX PIC for ATPL requirements. No instructor rating. Let's say under supervision is not an option.

What are some options in the YVR area to not be stuck forever in the right seat because no ATPL due to not enough PIC, day/night CX PIC?

Block time an aircraft. Maybe learn a new skill, fly a tail wheel or floats. Do some xc trips.

Or get a new job flying a 703 bird for a bit.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Rent a plane. Realistically it's the only option at this point.

I don't want to crap on you, but your story should serve as a cautionary tale. I have heard this story from A LOT of pilots: they get a job offer on a decent size airplane straight out of school. It's a great starting job until they realize that they can never upgrade. Then they're stuck as an FO. When they apply for jobs as PIC, they can't get hired because the operators know that they're only in it for a few months until they can get their ATPL.

A year or so ago I spoke to a friend of my daughter's. She had 2 job offers: the first as an FO at a 704 operator. The second one flying a C206 and eventually the Navajo. The first was a "better" job but she turned it down for the second. She planned to get her PIC time and then get a job with a 704 operator and get a quick upgrade. Smart thinking.

Great post Bede!

(I froze my arse off years back in a 172 trying to build the missing hours for an ATPL in the middle of winter.)

TPC

[Me262]

Rent a plane. Realistically it's the only option at this point.

I don't want to crap on you, but your story should serve as a cautionary tale. I have heard this story from A LOT of pilots: they get a job offer on a decent size airplane straight out of school. It's a great starting job until they realize that they can never upgrade. Then they're stuck as an FO. When they apply for jobs as PIC, they can't get hired because the operators know that they're only in it for a few months until they can get their ATPL.

A year or so ago I spoke to a friend of my daughter's. She had 2 job offers: the first as an FO at a 704 operator. The second one flying a C206 and eventually the Navajo. The first was a "better" job but she turned it down for the second. She planned to get her PIC time and then get a job with a 704 operator and get a quick upgrade. Smart thinking.

Seems like it would still be cheaper to get an instructor rating and work at a school as they seem to always be short at the moment rather than just "rent a plane".

And where does one find these 703 jobs? They are not well known (for example I don't know who operates C206's around) Is there a directory of all 703 operators?

[Bede]

Seems like it would still be cheaper to get an instructor rating and work at a school as they seem to always be short at the moment rather than just "rent a plane".

An instructor rating will set you back over $10k. A class 4 instructor rating is a gamble. Like everything, the shortage is in the "experienced...."

And where does one find these 703 jobs? They are not well known (for example I don't know who operates C206's around) Is there a directory of all 703 operators?

Usually word of mouth or friend of a friend. When I started, I looked up operators on the TC aircraft register- looked up owners for all the planes I thought that I'd have a chance of flying.

[yowflyer23]

Rent a plane. Realistically it's the only option at this point.

I don't want to crap on you, but your story should serve as a cautionary tale. I have heard this story from A LOT of pilots: they get a job offer on a decent size airplane straight out of school. It's a great starting job until they realize that they can never upgrade. Then they're stuck as an FO. When they apply for jobs as PIC, they can't get hired because the operators know that they're only in it for a few months until they can get their ATPL.

A year or so ago I spoke to a friend of my daughter's. She had 2 job offers: the first as an FO at a 704 operator. The second one flying a C206 and eventually the Navajo. The first was a "better" job but she turned it down for the second. She planned to get her PIC time and then get a job with a 704 operator and get a quick upgrade. Smart thinking.

Seems like it would still be cheaper to get an instructor rating and work at a school as they seem to always be short at the moment rather than just "rent a plane".

And where does one find these 703 jobs? They are not well known (for example I don't know who operates C206's around) Is there a directory of all 703 operators?

This is a decent reference.
https://pilotcareercenter.com/Search-A ... e/1/Canada

[lownslow]

Buy a Lazair, get MPIC while you’re at it!

Jk, don’t do that. IIRC you can only credit 50 hours in ultralights towards your ATPL.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Rent a plane. Realistically it's the only option at this point.

I don't want to crap on you, but your story should serve as a cautionary tale. I have heard this story from A LOT of pilots: they get a job offer on a decent size airplane straight out of school. It's a great starting job until they realize that they can never upgrade. Then they're stuck as an FO. When they apply for jobs as PIC, they can't get hired because the operators know that they're only in it for a few months until they can get their ATPL.

A year or so ago I spoke to a friend of my daughter's. She had 2 job offers: the first as an FO at a 704 operator. The second one flying a C206 and eventually the Navajo. The first was a "better" job but she turned it down for the second. She planned to get her PIC time and then get a job with a 704 operator and get a quick upgrade. Smart thinking.

She is getting more than just PIC, she is getting real world experience at being responsible for making difficult preflight and inflight decisions as the PIC in commercial flying operations. Those experiences will make the upgrade from FO to Captain go much better. Anecdotally I am hearing that the zero to hero straight from flight school to the dash 8 or RJ are failing the upgrades at a disproportionally higher rate than those FO that have some real PIC time.

Renting a C 150 to drive around the local area is not going to give you what you missed by bypassing instructing or 703 flying. However in the case of the OP it is too late so I would suggest get a LWOP for a month and do a block time deal and fly across the country and back. You will get some real world aviation skills and probably have the most interesting flying of your whole career.

[ahramin]

https://raa85.ca/club-plane/

[Cavalier44]

Many years ago, when I was just getting started out in my aviation career, I was working at an airline that had a 703/704 division, as well as a 705 division. An opportunity came up - I could leave the small northern town that I was living in, and transfer from my 703/704 FO position to an FO position on the 705 side of the operation. However, in doing so, I would be giving up the opportunity to go left seat on the 703/704 side, which was also an option that would be presenting itself shortly.

I knew that I lacked the PIC time that I would ultimately need for my ATPL, but I had a foolproof plan! The company offered a PIC-under-supervision program on the 705 side of the operation, and that would allow me to acquire the PIC time that I needed. Having made my decision, I packed my things in my car and moved away to the big city, full of hopes and dreams of flying the mighty Dash-8.

To my disappointment, shortly after I arrived, the company suspended its PICUS program. What happened, you ask? The Captains at the company, frustrated with the additional paperwork and duties that came with providing PIC under supervision to a growing number of CPLs, made their position known to the company that they would like to receive additional compensation for the duties that they were performing. The company promptly responded that said Captains could pound sand, and suspended the PICUS program in its entirety.

There I was, a not-quite wet-behind-the-ears CPL holder with a couple of thousand hours under my belt, with no hope of getting the PICUS time that I would need to complete my ATPL. I was left with two choices - leave the company that I was with and the seniority that I had accrued and try to make a lateral move to another company that would allow me to build the PIC time that I needed, or stay put and pay out of pocket for the 40-odd hours of PIC time that I would need. Ultimately, I chose the latter option. It was a frustrating, time-consuming, and expensive endeavor for someone on a junior FO's salary in a big city. It took several months and put me many thousands of dollars in debt.

Having flown a few thousand hours up north and in the 705 world, doing 40 hours of circuits in a Cessna with the occasional cross-country thrown in didn't offer much in the way of learning opportunities that would prepare me for my first 705 command. As I said - it was mostly an exercise in boredom and frustration. With all that being said, I was eventually able to secure a 705 Captain position (about as soon as the ink on my ATPL was dry), but I certainly could have made my life much easier by getting the PIC time at an earlier stage of my career. Luckily, the new Captain's salary enabled me to pay off the accumulated debt quite quickly.

As for the original poster, it seems to me that your only choice now is going to be to rent a plane and get the hours that you need. Don't even think about instructing - the initial investment to get the rating is going to set you back at least $10k, and it's going to be extremely difficult to find a flight school that's going to hire someone to work one or two days a week around their other employer's schedule. Not to mention - you will need to remain CARs compliant as far as flight times are concerned with both employers. Go to a bank, secure a line of credit, and bang out the hours you need as quickly as you can do it. If you know anyone in the instructing world who can help you leverage a "friends and family discount", I would try and do that, otherwise buy block time from a private owner if you can rather than a flight school - it'll be cheaper. Wishing you the best of luck!

And for everyone else out there reading this cautionary tale - PIC time is king! Get it early if you can, you will be doing your career a massive favour. Don't rely on programs like PICUS - they can evaporate in an instant. In the end, some of my colleagues who had stayed at the 703/704 level and pursued Captain positions early ultimately advanced their careers quicker and ended up at the "big leagues" a few years before I did. It's tough to delay gratification and stay in the small northern town, or in the 703/704 position that you don't really care for, but it will be to your advantage in the long run.

[I WAS Pez]

This is a decent reference.
https://pilotcareercenter.com/Search-A ... e/1/Canada

Definitely not a complete listing though.... Bede pretty much hit the nail on the head with finding these jobs (and the importance of experience gained at said jobs). They exist. Word of mouth, friend, road trip all good. TC Civil Aircraft Register can also be filtered by commercial operators and type.... May provide insights into operators that would otherwise not be particularly obvious.

[TailwheelPilot]

"Operator List Search" on TCs website will also help find operators.

[Heavy Rayn]

Is there any chance for you to upgrade to captain on the 704 machine without an ATPL? Not sure if that would be the case considering you said 704/705. Depending on what you operate if it’s a single pilot AC and solely operated under 704 you do not need an ATPL to act as PIC, just 1200 hours.

[Bede]

Is there any chance for you to upgrade to captain on the 704 machine without an ATPL? Not sure if that would be the case considering you said 704/705. Depending on what you operate if it’s a single pilot AC and solely operated under 704 you do not need an ATPL to act as PIC, just 1200 hours.

Maybe today's pilots are more skilled than I was at 1200 hrs, but there's not a chance that I was ready for a 704 command at 1200 hours.

[goldeneagle]

Is there any chance for you to upgrade to captain on the 704 machine without an ATPL? Not sure if that would be the case considering you said 704/705. Depending on what you operate if it’s a single pilot AC and solely operated under 704 you do not need an ATPL to act as PIC, just 1200 hours.

Maybe today's pilots are more skilled than I was at 1200 hrs, but there's not a chance that I was ready for a 704 command at 1200 hours.

That's why back in the day, the ATPL required 750 of PIC, 1500 total, but right seat time only counted half, so, if you only had 750 PIC you needed 1500 in the right seat to get the ATPL. Today you dont really need any PIC, just what you got on the way to the CPL then tack on a hundred pretend-a-pic and good to go.

Back in the early 80's I was with a small mom and pop operation, had a guy come looking to fly the 185 for the summer. Apparently he had been hired by AC strait out of Selkirk College, had over 3000 in the right seat of the diesel 9 but was stuck on the upgrade for lack of the ATPL, said he was taking an LOA to get PIC time so he could upgrade.

[digits_]

Is there any chance for you to upgrade to captain on the 704 machine without an ATPL? Not sure if that would be the case considering you said 704/705. Depending on what you operate if it’s a single pilot AC and solely operated under 704 you do not need an ATPL to act as PIC, just 1200 hours.

Maybe today's pilots are more skilled than I was at 1200 hrs, but there's not a chance that I was ready for a 704 command at 1200 hours.

Did you feel ready at whatever hour mark you did get your multi crew 703/704 command?

[Heavy Rayn]

Given the state of the industry currently, whether candidates feel ready or not, upgrades are being offered and accepted at 1200 hours in the 704 world. It’s happening at every 704 that I am familiar with, it’s not just one outlier. Not saying it’s right or wrong but companies are offering/encouraging upgrades at 1200 hours due to the lack of captains/ability to retain captains and pilots are accepting it.

[Bede]

Is there any chance for you to upgrade to captain on the 704 machine without an ATPL? Not sure if that would be the case considering you said 704/705. Depending on what you operate if it’s a single pilot AC and solely operated under 704 you do not need an ATPL to act as PIC, just 1200 hours.

Maybe today's pilots are more skilled than I was at 1200 hrs, but there's not a chance that I was ready for a 704 command at 1200 hours.

Did you feel ready at whatever hour mark you did get your multi crew 703/704 command?

Certainly. I had 3000 hours and 1500 on type when I finally upgraded.

[Me262]

Is there any chance for you to upgrade to captain on the 704 machine without an ATPL? Not sure if that would be the case considering you said 704/705. Depending on what you operate if it’s a single pilot AC and solely operated under 704 you do not need an ATPL to act as PIC, just 1200 hours.

Maybe today's pilots are more skilled than I was at 1200 hrs, but there's not a chance that I was ready for a 704 command at 1200 hours.

That's why back in the day, the ATPL required 750 of PIC, 1500 total, but right seat time only counted half, so, if you only had 750 PIC you needed 1500 in the right seat to get the ATPL. Today you dont really need any PIC, just what you got on the way to the CPL then tack on a hundred pretend-a-pic and good to go.

Back in the early 80's I was with a small mom and pop operation, had a guy come looking to fly the 185 for the summer. Apparently he had been hired by AC strait out of Selkirk College, had over 3000 in the right seat of the diesel 9 but was stuck on the upgrade for lack of the ATPL, said he was taking an LOA to get PIC time so he could upgrade.

This is irrelevant but EASA does not require any additional PIC time other than the one you get doing your CPL. Everything else required for ATPL can be gained PICUS (500hrs of it). Once you do the job from the right seat and acting as PIC, there is no reason not to be successful after several years. It's literally the same in the military to upgrade to captain. This whole ideology of getting an extra 150hrs of PIC on your own, instructing or going up north is just boomer Buffalo Joe mentality "I had to do it and paid my dues, so do you". And the airspace in EU is magnitudes busier than Canada.

Anyway, got to play the game.

[Turboprops]

Given the state of the industry currently, whether candidates feel ready or not, upgrades are being offered and accepted at 1200 hours in the 704 world. It’s happening at every 704 that I am familiar with, it’s not just one outlier. Not saying it’s right or wrong but companies are offering/encouraging upgrades at 1200 hours due to the lack of captains/ability to retain captains and pilots are accepting it.

I even know a pilot that got upgraded with less than 1200 hours, the company just made sure the flight has 9 pax or less until he reaches 1200 hours.

[mmm...bacon]

This is irrelevant but EASA does not require any additional PIC time other than the one you get doing your CPL. Everything else required for ATPL can be gained PICUS (500hrs of it). Once you do the job from the right seat and acting as PIC, there is no reason not to be successful after several years. It's literally the same in the military to upgrade to captain. This whole ideology of getting an extra 150hrs of PIC on your own, instructing or going up north is just boomer Buffalo Joe mentality "I had to do it and paid my dues, so do you". And the airspace in EU is magnitudes busier than Canada.

Anyway, got to play the game.

Except that, you don’t have ‘several years’ experience - you’ve got (based on 80 hrs/month) about 6 months! Further, that ‘boomer Buffalo Joe’ mentality actually works - we went and got shitty jobs in FtLakeNowhere, scared the crap out of ourselves a few times, and came back with a load of experience and PIC, so that we don’t have to whine about pretend-a-PIC and not being able to upgrade…

[goldeneagle]

scared the crap out of ourselves a few times, and came back with a load of experience and PIC, so that we don’t have to whine about pretend-a-PIC and not being able to upgrade…

This is the part many here dont seem to grok. You will never have the 'scared the crap out of ourselves' piece if you are pretending to be PIC with the real PIC sitting beside you, and ready to intervene when one makes that bad decision. All of us that can say 'been there, done that' have managed to survive the poor judgement that caused those situations, and taught us better judgement. There were a few of our compatriots not so lucky, they didn't survive that weeding out process.

There is an old saying that comes to mind. Experience is a nasty teacher, she gives the test first, then provides the lesson afterwards.