Negotiations

[QKZXKV]

Didn't you resign? Why are you in this conversation?

58

Does that matter? This is a public forum..

If he isn't with the company, and trying to sway a vote, then where the person actually works is important.

Nonsense!

Again... it's a public forum with the right to everyone's opinions. If any of that mattered, we'd all have to use our real names and credentials. Pretty naive to think avcanada will be the be all end all for people's voting decisions. Furthermore, some of us used to work at the same place and still do take interest in what's going on. We have our own experiences that allow us to generate our own opinions. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your thinking, doesn't mean it's not allowed on here.

[QKZXKV]

Your bargaining realities, wherever you are, are different than ours. We are not even in a contract/wage opener, yet we have this proposal in front of us. Honestly, go away, and let the Jazz pilots decide on their own future. Thank-you

Then take the conversation off a public forum... until then, suffer the consequences of everyone and anyone having the ability to comment.

[truedude]

Does that matter? This is a public forum..

If he isn't with the company, and trying to sway a vote, then where the person actually works is important.

Nonsense!

Again... it's a public forum with the right to everyone's opinions. If any of that mattered, we'd all have to use our real names and credentials. Pretty naive to think avcanada will be the be all end all for people's voting decisions. Furthermore, some of us used to work at the same place and still do take interest in what's going on. We have our own experiences that allow us to generate our own opinions. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your thinking, doesn't mean it's not allowed on here.

No one is saying he isn't allowed to voice an oppinion. But it is important to know how much skin he has in the game.

[canadian_aviator_4]

If he isn't with the company, and trying to sway a vote, then where the person actually works is important.

Nonsense!

Again... it's a public forum with the right to everyone's opinions. If any of that mattered, we'd all have to use our real names and credentials. Pretty naive to think avcanada will be the be all end all for people's voting decisions. Furthermore, some of us used to work at the same place and still do take interest in what's going on. We have our own experiences that allow us to generate our own opinions. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your thinking, doesn't mean it's not allowed on here.

No one is saying he isn't allowed to voice an oppinion. But it is important to know how much skin he has in the game.

I would suggest if you have concerns, bring them up to your union. Not av canada.
Or you could always ask Capt_Z. They know all

[truedude]

Nonsense!

Again... it's a public forum with the right to everyone's opinions. If any of that mattered, we'd all have to use our real names and credentials. Pretty naive to think avcanada will be the be all end all for people's voting decisions. Furthermore, some of us used to work at the same place and still do take interest in what's going on. We have our own experiences that allow us to generate our own opinions. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your thinking, doesn't mean it's not allowed on here.

No one is saying he isn't allowed to voice an oppinion. But it is important to know how much skin he has in the game.

I would suggest if you have concerns, bring them up to your union. Not av canada.
Or you could always ask Capt_Z. They know all

I really don't get what your issue is. No one is saying you aren't allowed to have an opinon. But I don't see what is wrong with calrifying if you actually work for Jazz, so your opinion can be waited accordingly.

[JustaCanadian]

Not a Jazz pilot. But I do know you will sleep in the bed you make.

I think the message from the MEC is clear, they say a yes vote won’t solve the problems for Jazz, AC, and the pilots. I think it won’t take long for regret to sink in if this passes, and will lead to more issues for all involved.

[Curiousflyer]

Using the pay scale from 2019 and adjusting for inflation, this represents an 8% raise.

With current market conditions, Jazz pilots are worth more than 8%.

[Ash Ketchum]

Pay increases seem a bit low - new hire should be $80-90 / hour in my opinion and first year captain at least $130. With the amount of leverage Jazz pilots have, it would be nice to match the US regional pay rates but in Canadian dollars.

[ourkid2000]

Good day folks,

I work for Jazz but I'm not a pilot (more maintenance side of things). I've been following this thread but I must say I'm really in the dark as to what's going on with you guys and I had a few questions. Maybe you could enlighten me if you could find the time? It seems that there is so much going on right now that Jazz is trying to keep as quiet as possible and I find that annoying. I hate not having the full picture.

1. So, what happened with YYC? All of our flying has disappeared out of YYC (also YQB) and the reasons we've been given over the past few months just doesn't make sense to me. I feel we've been given hearsay, basically. I hear rumors of the flying coming back through YYC but again, seems like hearsay or trying to keep the doom and gloom talk to a minimum.

2. What's with these negotiations? I thought the pilots had a deal in place until the mid 2030's? Please forgive my ignorance but I thought that the pilots deal locked everything down for a ridiculous amount of time where wages were set and right to strike removed during that period (for better or for worse). So where is this coming from now? PAL took some flying from us.....we really don't understand how this happened either.

3. Why do we have no E175 crews?

Again, don't attack me, I'm just genuinely curious and want to know what's going on. I mean I get that we don't pay well and this has caused a severe pilot shortage but there's got to be more to this story right?

[Fanblade]

Good day folks,

I work for Jazz but I'm not a pilot (more maintenance side of things). I've been following this thread but I must say I'm really in the dark as to what's going on with you guys and I had a few questions. Maybe you could enlighten me if you could find the time? It seems that there is so much going on right now that Jazz is trying to keep as quiet as possible and I find that annoying. I hate not having the full picture.

1. So, what happened with YYC? All of our flying has disappeared out of YYC (also YQB) and the reasons we've been given over the past few months just doesn't make sense to me. I feel we've been given hearsay, basically. I hear rumors of the flying coming back through YYC but again, seems like hearsay or trying to keep the doom and gloom talk to a minimum.

2. What's with these negotiations? I thought the pilots had a deal in place until the mid 2030's? Please forgive my ignorance but I thought that the pilots deal locked everything down for a ridiculous amount of time where wages were set and right to strike removed during that period (for better or for worse). So where is this coming from now? PAL took some flying from us.....we really don't understand how this happened either.

3. Why do we have no E175 crews?

Again, don't attack me, I'm just genuinely curious and want to know what's going on. I mean I get that we don't pay well and this has caused a severe pilot shortage but there's got to be more to this story right?

68 pages in one post.

Pilot shortage

- Other airlines increase pay to attract pilots.
- Jazz develops a pilot attraction and retention issue as a result.
- Porter in particular targets qualified Q400 and E175 pilots from Jazz
- AC drastically reduces pilot flow to mainline to compensate. This exasperates the attraction and retention issue as it becomes faster to get to AC from outside Jazz.

- AC uses the PAL CPA to place pressure on the Jazz MEC. This uncertainty exasperates Jazz’s ability to attract pilots yet again. But PAL can’t possibly cover for the attrition losses at Jazz.

- Jazz starts to park aircraft due to a lack of crews.
- Air Canada starts moving regional and mainline metal out of places like YYC and YQB to shore up regional routes out of the main hubs YYZ, YUL and YVR.

All this to avoid opening the Jazz pilot contract and paying Jazz pilots market rates.

After 18 months of self inflicted pain AC has finally decided to make an offer which the Jazz pilots are currently entertaining.

Two questions remain.

Will they vote yes?

Will the offer be enough to fix the pilot attraction and retention issues that have triggered this cascading mess in the first place? At first glance it looks like AC is making a “barely enough “ offer which may fail to fix the problem even if the Jazz pilots vote yes.

What does the future hold?

Some Jazz routes will migrate to the A220 and stay at mainline.

Assuming AC actually addresses its pilot attraction and retention issues at Jazz in a satisfactory manor, Jazz will rebuild its pilot numbers and move back into some of its former regional routes. Mainline metal will move back into places like YYC and YQB. But this is not certain to happen with this deal. It’s not just the barely enough pay increase. The flow reduction from 60% to 30% will make Jazz less attractive.

[kiaszceski]

a. The Company shall have an allotment of six (6) Credits per Position which may be used in the Bid Periods of October to December 2023 to increase Maximum Scheduled Credits above eighty-five (85).

Why only those 3 months? I thought those months were shoulder seasons.

[ourkid2000]

Wonderful response. Thanks so much for breaking that down for me, I really appreciate it.

After 18 months of self inflicted pain AC has finally decided to make an offer which the Jazz pilots are currently entertaining.

Just a followup question. Why do you mention Air Canada making a deal with the Jazz pilots? I thought Jazz management would be the ones dealing with you guys?

[Fanblade]

Wonderful response. Thanks so much for breaking that down for me, I really appreciate it.

After 18 months of self inflicted pain AC has finally decided to make an offer which the Jazz pilots are currently entertaining.

Just a followup question. Why do you mention Air Canada making a deal with the Jazz pilots? I thought Jazz management would be the ones dealing with you guys?

For clarity I am an AC pilot.

The CPA Chorus has with Air Canada doesn’t have room in it to pay Jazz pilots more. The Jazz pilots do negotiate with Jazz, however the purse strings are held by AC. It makes the situation a three way negotiation in reality.

Jazz management has shown willingness to come to the table and address the issue for some time now. It has been AC that has been the hold out.

[Morg]

Hard NO! for me!

[twa22]

I understand that the offer could be better for the later years, but saying no now means they could come back with an offer tomorrow, next month, next year, or never... So I really don't understand all the hard no people, as many have already said, this isn't contract negotiations, and if attrition doesn't stop, the parties involved will be hard pressed to come back to the table

[ourkid2000]

Wonderful response. Thanks so much for breaking that down for me, I really appreciate it.

After 18 months of self inflicted pain AC has finally decided to make an offer which the Jazz pilots are currently entertaining.

Just a followup question. Why do you mention Air Canada making a deal with the Jazz pilots? I thought Jazz management would be the ones dealing with you guys?

For clarity I am an AC pilot.

The CPA Chorus has with Air Canada doesn’t have room in it to pay Jazz pilots more. The Jazz pilots do negotiate with Jazz, however the purse strings are held by AC. It makes the situation a three way negotiation in reality.

Jazz management has shown willingness to come to the table and address the issue for some time now. It has been AC that has been the hold out.

Ok I get that. I'm assuming AC is saying "well, you guys (Jazz pilots-Jazz mgmt) have your 15 year contract in place sooooo.....tough luck"?

So AC is giving up on routes such as YQB and YYC just willingly because of the Jazz pilot pay issue? Are they hoping that they'll get some new airplanes or something and then come back in??

[rudder]

The JAZ MEC should post the prior TA (non-AC approved) to show how far backwards they had to move for TA2.

[cdnavater]

Just want to say, it’s a yes for me and here is why!
We have and agreed to a long term pilot agreement, the rational back then was the company is creating their own mess they would someday need to address, at that point they would come to us hat in hand. Well, this is not necessarily that but it is more money in our pockets and no real strings. The end date of our contract remains unchanged, no concessions for on property pilots, 30% pilot flow seems more realistic anyway and contract trainers has an end date with restrictions that can be enforced.
It fell short of many pilots expectations I’m sure but again, it’s more money when they don’t have to, they could literally just leave it as is and close the doors when the last pilot leaves, they are trying to put out a fast moving forest fire with a garden hose, will they put more on it when they realize it’s not working, time will tell.
For me, it’s a 25% pay increase and with the benefits costs share it will be another 6000+ in my account every year on top of that and to reiterate no extension to the contract, that was my line in the sand. If they tried to tack on any more time to that, it was a hard no!

[cdnavater]

The JAZ MEC should post the prior TA (non-AC approved) to show how far backwards they had to move for TA2.

I’m sure that would fall under the NDAs

[cdnavater]

Hard NO! for me!

Morg,
Please, take emotion out of your decision for a second to think about this.
You’re a hard NO, why? We have an agreement in place to 2035, this doesn’t change it, there are no concessions for pilots currently employed.
We’re you hoping for a contract that made you want to stick it out at Jazz, well if this doesn’t do that, maybe 6 months from now when the AC pilots have their contract, AC opens up their wallet a little more.
I don’t understand the thought process here, it’s more money and no strings! Who doesn’t take that!
I offer you an extra 20 grand a year and all I ask of you is you continue to do your job, you say, @#$! no, gimme more!

[Inverted2]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

[truedude]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Then let them figure it out the hard way. At least they can't blame us for it, and we get to say "told you so." And going from this to the next jump will be easier for them to rationalize.

[rudder]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Check your annual pay summary. You will still be paying 100% of STD premiums. That is a large number.

[truedude]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Check your annual pay summary. You will still be paying 100% of STD premiums. That is a large number.

I take it this is a no from you then rudder?

[cdnavater]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Check your annual pay summary. You will still be paying 100% of STD premiums. That is a large number.

Rudder,
Correct me if I’m wrong, the reason we pay the STD premiums is because when they are self funded they are tax free when being collected.
They have to be a “self” funded wage replacement to be tax free, which is a huge benefit, especially at tax time. If you’ve ever had to use it, you’ll understand how important it is.
Edited to add; STD premium is less than 300/month for top scale Captain