Negotiations

[truedude]

Pilots have never been in a better position to demand improvements

I wouldn't be taking the first offer from a management group drunk on Canadian pilot discount punch

Time to let them sober up

This wasn't the first offer. It was the first offer the union brought to the membership.

[Morg]

We didn't get to see the deal between the Mec and Jazz that AC killed so how does this compare to that one. I'm a No !

[FL030]

You can't just walk off the job.

Try me.

[truedude]

You can't just walk off the job.

Try me.

Good luck with that...

[CanadaAir]

You can't just walk off the job.

Try me.

If the employer does such a large violation of the intent of the agreement, its beyond a typical grievance.
If the formal process doesn't work at shutting down contracting out to PAL, then Jazz is getting away with illegal labor practice.
The whole intent of a meaningful collective agreement isn't there.
So the pilots could do whatever job action necessary, the company broke the agreement.

Jazz/AC contracting to PAL allows the opportunity for a strike ahead of agreement expiry.
Jazz MEC may want to point that out to the company.

[flyingcanuck]

You can't just walk off the job.

Try me.

If the employer does such a large violation of the intent of the agreement, its beyond a typical grievance.
If the formal process doesn't work at shutting down contracting out to PAL, then Jazz is getting away with illegal labor practice.
The whole intent of a meaningful collective agreement isn't there.
So the pilots could do whatever job action necessary, the company broke the agreement.

Jazz/AC contracting to PAL allows the opportunity for a strike ahead of agreement expiry.
Jazz MEC may want to point that out to the company.

Where in the labour code is this said? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm serious

[truedude]

Try me.

If the employer does such a large violation of the intent of the agreement, its beyond a typical grievance.
If the formal process doesn't work at shutting down contracting out to PAL, then Jazz is getting away with illegal labor practice.
The whole intent of a meaningful collective agreement isn't there.
So the pilots could do whatever job action necessary, the company broke the agreement.

Jazz/AC contracting to PAL allows the opportunity for a strike ahead of agreement expiry.
Jazz MEC may want to point that out to the company.

Where in the labour code is this said? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm serious

It doesn't. They are on crack

[stall]

Anyone who thinks this new pay scheme is a respectable offer is on crack

[CanadaAir]

Try me.

If the employer does such a large violation of the intent of the agreement, its beyond a typical grievance.
If the formal process doesn't work at shutting down contracting out to PAL, then Jazz is getting away with illegal labor practice.
The whole intent of a meaningful collective agreement isn't there.
So the pilots could do whatever job action necessary, the company broke the agreement.

Jazz/AC contracting to PAL allows the opportunity for a strike ahead of agreement expiry.
Jazz MEC may want to point that out to the company.

Where in the labour code is this said? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm serious

Using the current labor dispute process, the ALPA lawyers would prove breach of agreement and large damages such as loss of CRJ200 without replacement while PAL builds fleet and takes over Jazz routes.

If they can prove that there was a large breach in the scope & intents of the agreement, such that continuation of the work by PAL is large damage to the future of the pilots and an ongoing illegal action. Then the lawyers can ask the arbitrator to force reopening the strike clause as a condition of settlement of the dispute.

Then ALPA follows the strike process.

There're other ways.
At the moment, Jazz & ALPA are in a collective agreement process altering large parts of the agreement.
Competent lawyers would see some opportunity in this, if the MEC is directing the lawyers to explore avenues to legally strike.

[rudder]

Anyone who thinks this new pay scheme is a respectable offer is on crack

Yup. This is an August 2022 deal.

It is stale and the ink isn’t even dry on it.

My guess is that it will pass since 70% of the eligible voters won’t be working for Jazz in 5 years.

[truedude]

Anyone who thinks this new pay scheme is a respectable offer is on crack

I don't think anyone thinks that. But this is a step in that direction. You don't need to climb the entire mountain in a day to still reach the top.

Voting this down keeps you at the bottom looking up, hoping someone builds a gondola.

[JustaCanadian]

The year is 2035. A jazz new hire pilot is making 85,000 a year after spending 200k to meet the qualifications for licensing for the privilege of working this job.

Meanwhile Wendy’s pays its entry level restaurant managers 40 per hour, which happens to be $7 more than the $28/hour minimum wage.

You think wages are bad today? Unbelievable this deal has FO’s paid less than 100k yr over a decade from now.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If the employer does such a large violation of the intent of the agreement, its beyond a typical grievance.
If the formal process doesn't work at shutting down contracting out to PAL, then Jazz is getting away with illegal labor practice.
The whole intent of a meaningful collective agreement isn't there.
So the pilots could do whatever job action necessary, the company broke the agreement.

Jazz/AC contracting to PAL allows the opportunity for a strike ahead of agreement expiry.
Jazz MEC may want to point that out to the company.

Where in the labour code is this said? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm serious

Using the current labor dispute process, the ALPA lawyers would prove breach of agreement and large damages such as loss of CRJ200 without replacement while PAL builds fleet and takes over Jazz routes.

If they can prove that there was a large breach in the scope & intents of the agreement, such that continuation of the work by PAL is large damage to the future of the pilots and an ongoing illegal action. Then the lawyers can ask the arbitrator to force reopening the strike clause as a condition of settlement of the dispute.

Then ALPA follows the strike process.

There're other ways.
At the moment, Jazz & ALPA are in a collective agreement process altering large parts of the agreement.
Competent lawyers would see some opportunity in this, if the MEC is directing the lawyers to explore avenues to legally strike.

Lol. Even if this were possible….How long do you think that’ll take? I personally love how you think the court system and arbitrators would get anything resolved prior to 2028. Good luck to you.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

The year is 2035. A jazz new hire pilot is making 85,000 a year after spending 200k to meet the qualifications for licensing for the privilege of working this job.

Meanwhile Wendy’s pays its entry level restaurant managers 40 per hour, which happens to be $7 more than the $28/hour minimum wage.

You think wages are bad today? Unbelievable this deal has FO’s paid less than 100k yr over a decade from now.

There won't be a Jazz in 2035 unless pay rapidly goes up

There simply isn't pilots entering the industry anymore

It seems US & European majors all have plans for creating pilots

AC is still stuck in 1995. I'm seriously concerned about the complete reactionary actions by this company to a very serious problem

[truedude]

The year is 2035. A jazz new hire pilot is making 85,000 a year after spending 200k to meet the qualifications for licensing for the privilege of working this job.

Meanwhile Wendy’s pays its entry level restaurant managers 40 per hour, which happens to be $7 more than the $28/hour minimum wage.

You think wages are bad today? Unbelievable this deal has FO’s paid less than 100k yr over a decade from now.

There won't be a Jazz in 2035 unless pay rapidly goes up

There simply isn't pilots entering the industry anymore

It seems US & European majors all have plans for creating pilots

AC is still stuck in 1995. I'm seriously concerned about the complete reactionary actions by this company to a very serious problem

So we vote yes, and they come back with more money later.

[TheAlcalde]

Air Canada pilots said no to an MOA about 9-12 months ago. No second offer was presented at the table. Different circumstances but still worth mentioning.

I haven’t flown with anyone that has regretted voting down that MOA. I think most of us still think of it as a bit insulting.

[kiaszceski]

Anyone who thinks this new pay scheme is a respectable offer is on crack

Yup. This is an August 2022 deal.

It is stale and the ink isn’t even dry on it.

My guess is that it will pass since 70% of the eligible voters won’t be working for Jazz in 5 years.

Are you saying the union accepted to present a MOS that is more than a year old to the pilots?
What changed in the union's mind? Have they been threatened?

[rudder]

Anyone who thinks this new pay scheme is a respectable offer is on crack

Yup. This is an August 2022 deal.

It is stale and the ink isn’t even dry on it.

My guess is that it will pass since 70% of the eligible voters won’t be working for Jazz in 5 years.

Are you saying the union accepted to present a MOS that is more than a year old to the pilots?
What changed in the union's mind? Have they been threatened?

No.

I am saying that if this offer had been tabled in August of 2022 it may have been timely.

But other agreements reached by other pilot groups render this MOS as outdated.

[truedude]

Anyone who thinks this new pay scheme is a respectable offer is on crack

Yup. This is an August 2022 deal.

It is stale and the ink isn’t even dry on it.

My guess is that it will pass since 70% of the eligible voters won’t be working for Jazz in 5 years.

Are you saying the union accepted to present a MOS that is more than a year old to the pilots?
What changed in the union's mind? Have they been threatened?

No, he is saying this represents the market a year ago, and not the realities of today. Which is why I say we vote for it, and let them come back whe they realize it won't fix anything.

[kiaszceski]

Yup. This is an August 2022 deal.

It is stale and the ink isn’t even dry on it.

My guess is that it will pass since 70% of the eligible voters won’t be working for Jazz in 5 years.

Are you saying the union accepted to present a MOS that is more than a year old to the pilots?
What changed in the union's mind? Have they been threatened?

No, he is saying this represents the market a year ago, and not the realities of today. Which is why I say we vote for it, and let them come back whe they realize it won't fix anything.

Okay! understood

[hithere]

Rudder I’m sure you are aware that Jazz flies a 76 seat Embraer and Porter flies a 132 seat Embraer. Come on buddy you can do better than this

[truedude]

Rudder I’m sure you are aware that Jazz flies a 76 seat Embraer and Porter flies a 132 seat Embraer. Come on buddy you can do better than this

Yes, but where are Jazz pilots going. This argument makes sense when there is a lot of pilots to spare. It starts making less sense when pilots are in short supply, and you still want to run x number of airplanes. Then it is about what is required to attract and keep them on property.

[lament]

hold out for J class deadheads

[CanadaAir]

Lol. Even if this were possible….How long do you think that’ll take? I personally love how you think the court system and arbitrators would get anything resolved prior to 2028. Good luck to you.

Never stated fast or slow.
There're previous posts discussing how the recent dispute process at Sunwing was only a few months, arbitration in favor of pilots.



The MEC should be able to explain the legal steps they are taking towards a strike, or why the MOS excluded any mention of PAL & scope protection from the recent agreement. Ask them.

“The MOS does not meet the MEC’s expectations


At WJ the concern about scope protection was more important than wages.

If Jazz pilots agree to this MOS without a specific clause to prevent PAL from continuing, would the Jazz pilots then legally be approving the continuation of AC contracting to PAL & voiding the previous agreement of Jazz as the only AC regional?

Ask & vote how you want

[noreasterYHZ]

Air Canada pilots said no to an MOA about 9-12 months ago. No second offer was presented at the table. Different circumstances but still worth mentioning.

I haven’t flown with anyone that has regretted voting down that MOA. I think most of us still think of it as a bit insulting.

No "No" voter ever regrets voting No

It's always the "yes" voters that live with regret