Negotiations

[braaap Braap]

I am not a Jazz pilot. You all have a big decision and I respect the civilized discussion you are having. I will throw my $0.02 into the discussion though.

The entire industry is caught up in the theme of "knowing your worth". We look to the US and say "they got where they are because they know their worth". The Jazz pilot group - and those that "knew their worth" and voted with their feet - have built up a remarkable amount of leverage. I'm thinking of it as an inflated balloon. It's massive! The size is putting heavy pressure on AC and your pilot group controls the nozzle. AC is asking you to let a little bit of air out so that they're more comfortable. As with all things business/management, it's a calculated move! They want you to take it because its the lowest amount they've calculated to buy them some relief.

Does your MEC not endorsing the deal - with their analysis and behind the scenes knowledge - not point to the belief that this isn't "your worth" and would be some form of settling for less?


But I get that at the end of the day these are all things that have an impact on your personal lives. Just try your best to get informed and consider all facets. Avoid the short sighted/fear mongering that has caught pilot groups chasing carrots in the past.

[unionism101]

Air Canada pilots said no to an MOA about 9-12 months ago. No second offer was presented at the table. Different circumstances but still worth mentioning.

I haven’t flown with anyone that has regretted voting down that MOA. I think most of us still think of it as a bit insulting.

No "No" voter ever regrets voting No

It's always the "yes" voters that live with regret

So true...always hard to find "yes" voters after the fact

This won't be any different...

Vote No

[truedude]

I haven’t flown with anyone that has regretted voting down that MOA. I think most of us still think of it as a bit insulting.

No "No" voter ever regrets voting No

It's always the "yes" voters that live with regret

So true...always hard to find "yes" voters after the fact

This won't be any different...

Vote No

I am voting yes. And I know I will have no regrets. If the economy slides into a recession, might be many who regret voting no.

[truedude]

Lol. Even if this were possible….How long do you think that’ll take? I personally love how you think the court system and arbitrators would get anything resolved prior to 2028. Good luck to you.

Never stated fast or slow.
There're previous posts discussing how the recent dispute process at Sunwing was only a few months, arbitration in favor of pilots.



The MEC should be able to explain the legal steps they are taking towards a strike, or why the MOS excluded any mention of PAL & scope protection from the recent agreement. Ask them.

“The MOS does not meet the MEC’s expectations


At WJ the concern about scope protection was more important than wages.

If Jazz pilots agree to this MOS without a specific clause to prevent PAL from continuing, would the Jazz pilots then legally be approving the continuation of AC contracting to PAL & voiding the previous agreement of Jazz as the only AC regional?

Ask & vote how you want

No they would not.

We have a contract until 2035. There is no ability to strike. The labour code has very clear definitions of when a strike can occur. You need to drop that notion as being a possibility anytime before 2035.

[Nick678]

So illegal strike it is then?

“protocols” if the 30% isn’t met? What about the current violation? It’s pretty laughable to think that’s trust worthy. Where were those protocols 8 months ago. AC has shown it will do whatever it wants.

Also, no mention of PAL?

Also, if they can put a vote together this fast why didn’t we get to vote with Sky?

The majority of jazz is pre 2015 hire so I think this piece of trash will pass unfortunately.

[ourkid2000]

I'd like to know where PAL thinks they're getting the pilots to do this extra flying. They've never been known for their WAWCON. I know Jazz had to cover a few of their flights recently so I'm extremely skeptical of this idea.

[hithere]

PAL owns the Moncton flying club(MFC) one of the biggest flying schools in Canada, so there is their source of FOs. Also for the AC express flying they are basing people in Halifax, so there are a lay of people that will apply there just to live in Atlantic Canada. Last I heard there were several retired Jazz pilots now working for PAL

[Morg]

AC posted a net profit of $838 million, or $2.34 per share, for the quarter ended June 30, compared with a net loss of $386 million, or $1.60 per share, a year earlier

[CaptDukeNukem]

PAL owns the Moncton flying club(MFC) one of the biggest flying schools in Canada, so there is their source of FOs. Also for the AC express flying they are basing people in Halifax, so there are a lay of people that will apply there just to live in Atlantic Canada. Last I heard there were several retired Jazz pilots now working for PAL

Well…. Mostly correct, but……. EIC owns Moncton flight college, not PAL. And EIC owns PAL, along with calm air, perimeter/bearskin, keewaitin to name a few. So they gotta feed all these airlines through this school.

[Little Star]

AC wants to wrap this all up before they start negotiating with the mainline pilots but don't expect anything better than this for the time being.

This is a good deal for A-Scalers. It includes a one-time long service award, additional steps at the top of the scale that align with Porter's pay scale, and a 5% increase for training pilots. This is all real cash. Don't forget that the language in MOS-7 doesn't prohibit AC to establish another CPA carrier. Take advantage of early retirement and head over to Porter or PAL or the new CPA carrier to double dip.

For college kids, Jazz offers higher pay compared to Porter and the mainline while you wait for your turn to go there. Perhaps no J deadhead while you are at Jazz but you will get it when you get to the mainline.

[flyingcanuck]

No "No" voter ever regrets voting No

It's always the "yes" voters that live with regret

So true...always hard to find "yes" voters after the fact

This won't be any different...

Vote No

I am voting yes. And I know I will have no regrets. If the economy slides into a recession, might be many who regret voting no.

That's not an argument.

There might be many who regret voting yes if this shortage continues and other companies continue to rise.

You can't predict this

[CanadaAir]

Don't forget that the language in MOS-7 doesn't prohibit AC to establish another CPA carrier.

This is a moment to direct the MEC to ask Jazz & AC to include this language. The MEC could go back to negotiate language included to reopen the option to strike if PAL flying continues past October. Then the pilots can accept.

AC & Jazz should have no issue with such language, as they already told the pilots that PAL is temporary -unless they're lying.

Some say there's no strings attached. Gains to Jazz pilots without gains to the company?
The gain to the company may not be laid out for pilots.

Accepting as is would indicate to a future arbitrator, that in exchange for large wages hikes the pilots agree to the recent changes in company policy to date. This includes the planned fleet reductions, the constant West-East deadheading & base shrink & the pilots are accepting of the build up of PAL against the previous Jazz AC capacity agreement.

Whenever the company makes large changes, the union has a say & opportunity to negotiate a revised agreement.
Jazz pilots have the ability to direct the MEC to request scope protection changes & reopening of strike options.

Voting yes indicates you agree in the exchange. Do you know what you are exchanging?


"Jazz to provide 100% of Air Canada Express 70+ seat regional capacity until 2025.

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/air-canada- ... -1.5328501

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... s-flights/

https://chorusaviation.com/chorus-aviat ... ir-canada/

[CPU2000]

Interesting to see all the shills come out begging for a yes vote

Don't be a shill and know you're worth

Aeroplan said no and got a much better deal

United pilots said no and got a much better deal

American pilots said no and got a much better deal

Say no and get a much better deal

[Little Star]

Don't forget that the language in MOS-7 doesn't prohibit AC to establish another CPA carrier.

This is a moment to direct the MEC to ask Jazz & AC to include this language. The MEC could go back to negotiate language included to reopen the option to strike if PAL flying continues past October. Then the pilots can accept.

You can't just go back to renegotiate while the TA is being ratified.

[rudder]

Rudder I’m sure you are aware that Jazz flies a 76 seat Embraer and Porter flies a 132 seat Embraer. Come on buddy you can do better than this

And AC fly 137-468 seat aircraft.

The top scale CA on either aircraft is in a range of $240-340/hr. In the not too distant future it will be $300-400/hr presuming the AC pilots not only catch but exceed WJ (a pretty low bar). AC pay rates are non-linear. Bigger planes pay more but not nearly what would be the case on a per seat criteria.

However, the dynamic for the rest of the industry is simple - if you don’t pay enough your aircraft will either be parked or under utilized. So for everybody except AC, it is a decision about your assets generating revenue or no revenue. And in a pilot depleted market, this results in King Air jobs paying $150+/hr. It is less about what is fair than what the market demands.

It is hard to feel sorry for Jazz (or AC) that the market has decided that pilot pay for non-mainline aircraft has gone up. The flow Ponzi Scheme in exchange for pay was never sustainable and in the end has left the parties with the current mess.

This MOS will not fix it. Both Jazz and AC need to go so much further both economically and philosophically. But instead it will be a bandaid.

Other carriers are starting to feel the heat now too. CA quitting carriers like Morningstar and Flair and Cargojet to go to Porter. Pilots will gravitate to the $$. It is a sellers market (except perhaps for AC). Anybody operating under the Express banner trying to sustain non-market rates will find themselves in the same predicament as Jazz.

[CanadaAir]

Don't forget that the language in MOS-7 doesn't prohibit AC to establish another CPA carrier.

This is a moment to direct the MEC to ask Jazz & AC to include this language. The MEC could go back to negotiate language included to reopen the option to strike if PAL flying continues past October. Then the pilots can accept.

You can't just go back to renegotiate while the TA is being ratified.

Majority vote no would send it back to renegotiate.

MEC stated “The MOS does not meet the MEC’s expectations

Unlike WJ MEC, Jazz MEC's not recommending pilots accept this.
Jazz MEC's shifting choice on the next steps to the pilots.

Voting no tells MEC the Jazz pilots support the MEC to continue to negotiate & to go further.
Voting yes tells MEC Jazz pilots are happy with MOS & Jazz pilots are liable for the choice - not the MEC to be blamed

[truedude]

This is a moment to direct the MEC to ask Jazz & AC to include this language. The MEC could go back to negotiate language included to reopen the option to strike if PAL flying continues past October. Then the pilots can accept.

You can't just go back to renegotiate while the TA is being ratified.

Majority vote no would send it back to renegotiate.

MEC stated “The MOS does not meet the MEC’s expectations

Unlike WJ MEC, Jazz MEC's not recommending pilots accept this.
Jazz MEC's shifting choice on the next steps to the pilots.

Voting no tells MEC the Jazz pilots support the MEC to continue to negotiate & to go further.
Voting yes tells MEC Jazz pilots are happy with MOS & Jazz pilots are liable for the choice - not the MEC to be blamed

You are making a rather large assumption that AC will still entertain negotiating with us at any point in the near future. They may not.

[ourkid2000]

Other carriers are starting to feel the heat now too. CA quitting carriers like Morningstar and Flair and Cargojet to go to Porter. Pilots will gravitate to the $$. It is a sellers market (except perhaps for AC). Anybody operating under the Express banner trying to sustain non-market rates will find themselves in the same predicament as Jazz.

I also want to know where Porter is getting all these resources to upset the balance so significantly? I mean, yeah Deluce's got some cash but, in my opinion, they do not have THAT kind of cash. Nothing short of going into space can burn through money like an airline, especially one in Canada, and I am very skeptical about Porter.

That company completely shut the doors during the pandemic, for like 2 years. That's a long time for an airline to just sit there dormant. The second the pandemic was over, they came out swinging like no other airline I've witnessed. How many airlines over the years have attempted, and succeeded, in this way? Seems pretty unprecedented in my opinion. Hell of a gamble.

Here's Jazz, a solid, longstanding, reliable airline with a direct relationship with Canada's largest airline getting ragdolled by what I consider to be a pseudo-startup airline like Porter?? How could such a thing occur? Especially after the pandemic.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Other carriers are starting to feel the heat now too. CA quitting carriers like Morningstar and Flair and Cargojet to go to Porter. Pilots will gravitate to the $$. It is a sellers market (except perhaps for AC). Anybody operating under the Express banner trying to sustain non-market rates will find themselves in the same predicament as Jazz.

I also want to know where Porter is getting all these resources to upset the balance so significantly? I mean, yeah Deluce's got some cash but, in my opinion, they do not have THAT kind of cash. Nothing short of going into space can burn through money like an airline, especially one in Canada, and I am very skeptical about Porter.

That company completely shut the doors during the pandemic, for like 2 years. That's a long time for an airline to just sit there dormant. The second the pandemic was over, they came out swinging like no other airline I've witnessed. How many airlines over the years have attempted, and succeeded, in this way? Seems pretty unprecedented in my opinion. Hell of a gamble.

Here's Jazz, a solid, longstanding, reliable airline with a direct relationship with Canada's largest airline getting ragdolled by what I consider to be a pseudo-startup airline like Porter?? How could such a thing occur? Especially after the pandemic.

It’s probably because of the pandemic that porter does have cash floating around. Instead of burning millions per day like Ac and jazz they just shut down operations, got a wicked deal on ultra efficient airplanes and saw market share to grab.

Deluce family are aviation geniuses, don’t discount them.

[coastdog13]

Vote No, a recession hits and we wont be seeing any leverage for many years. AC will not come back to the table fast, as can be seen in this MOS taking a year to come to fruition. We'd be lucky if they came back at all

Vote Yes, and we take their money while they realize this isn't enough to solve the issue. A "no" vote is just saving the company money while they figure that out. Vote Yes and at least we have something locked in in the event of a recession. 23% raise is nothing to scoff at.

We all know this MOS wont solve any problems the companies are facing, which is a good reason to vote Yes and take their money as soon as possible.

[truedude]

Vote No, a recession hits and we wont be seeing any leverage for many years. AC will not come back to the table fast, as can be seen in this MOS taking a year to come to fruition. We'd be lucky if they came back at all

Vote Yes, and we take their money while they realize this isn't enough to solve the issue. A "no" vote is just saving the company money while they figure that out. Vote Yes and at least we have something locked in in the event of a recession. 23% raise is nothing to scoff at.

We all know this MOS wont solve any problems the companies are facing, which is a good reason to vote Yes and take their money as soon as possible.

Agreed!

[Blueontop]

No "No" voter ever regrets voting No

It's always the "yes" voters that live with regret

So true...always hard to find "yes" voters after the fact

This won't be any different...

Vote No

I am voting yes. And I know I will have no regrets. If the economy slides into a recession, might be many who regret voting no.

Newsflash. The economy will always “slide into recession” only question is when.

This is probably a number one reason that our wages have been consistently been held down. Canadians and specifically pilots are scurred, timid creatures alway being played by management about “the dreaded recession that’s always just around the corner”. While record profits are generally always being posted.

Always seems to just around the corner when the contract is up and it’s time to negotiate again.

I’ve noticed over the years that anytime you’re watching/reading an economic report it’s always feels like bad news. Until something really bad happens and bam there actually is an economic downturn. Suddenly the pst 8 years are reflected on as being an amazing bull market that everyone is now getting all nostalgic about.

Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it

[ourkid2000]

It’s probably because of the pandemic that porter does have cash floating around. Instead of burning millions per day like Ac and jazz they just shut down operations, got a wicked deal on ultra efficient airplanes and saw market share to grab.

Deluce family are aviation geniuses, don’t discount them.

I suppose, but it's certainly one massive gamble. Gambles in the airline industry have to be one of the most risky ones going.

The way things usually go in this industry is a company gains a foothold with some early success and then gets stomped out by the big dogs. It happens over and over and over and over........

They had their own little YTZ thing going on for ages which worked really well for them but now they're in the Pearson game where they're taking on the big dogs. Like I said, they're in the majors now and the game is different. They've upset the balance by, somehow, throwing down on wages.....another huge gamble.

They have so many balls in the air, so to speak. It usually doesn't work out well in this business. I would not be surprised if they're making these moves and looking to get bought out by someone......or something like that.

[braaap Braap]

You are making a rather large assumption that AC will still entertain negotiating with us at any point in the near future. They may not.

Edited to include the quote. Sorry about that.

You seem a little fear mongery to me. They have plans B, C, and D if you guys say no to this. All of which have a good chance of being better than this. They keep working with you guys so they are just as unhappy with the status quo as you are.

Look to your leadership. They have more context and background knowledge that has them unwilling to endorse this.

[cdnavater]

So true...always hard to find "yes" voters after the fact

This won't be any different...

Vote No

I am voting yes. And I know I will have no regrets. If the economy slides into a recession, might be many who regret voting no.

Newsflash. The economy will always “slide into recession” only question is when.

This is probably a number one reason that our wages have been consistently been held down. Canadians and specifically pilots are scurred, timid creatures alway being played by management about “the dreaded recession that’s always just around the corner”. While record profits are generally always being posted.

Always seems to just around the corner when the contract is up and it’s time to negotiate again.

I’ve noticed over the years that anytime you’re watching/reading an economic report it’s always feels like bad news. Until something really bad happens and bam there actually is an economic downturn. Suddenly the pst 8 years are reflected on as being an amazing bull market that everyone is now getting all nostalgic about.

Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it

What everyone seems to be forgetting, we are not in a position of normal bargaining, this is them trying to fix a problem that exist. They are trying the cheapest options first, if it doesn’t work they may come back. A no vote signals a militant group that was the problem when they first created SR over a decade ago, they may just let’s us die a natural death or they may try to fix it, but one thing is for certain, we don’t know the answer to that question.
It’s definitely a gamble, I don’t understand why anyone thinks not taking “free money” is a good idea!
There are no strings attached, no extension to the contract, no loss to current pilots and the 30% flow is most certainly exactly what they have done under the 60% minimum, probably a lot more realistic.
It’s FREE money, nothing to lose here but I think you’d be certifiable if you think saying no to this will result in an immediate increase to the offer.