Negotiations

[truedude]

You are making a rather large assumption that AC will still entertain negotiating with us at any point in the near future. They may not.

Edited to include the quote. Sorry about that.

You seem a little fear mongery to me. They have plans B, C, and D if you guys say no to this. All of which have a good chance of being better than this. They keep working with you guys so they are just as unhappy with the status quo as you are.

Look to your leadership. They have more context and background knowledge that has them unwilling to endorse this.

They also didn't reject it. Because they know there is a risk to voting no. It isn't fear mongering when you are familiar with ACs history. SR was started simply as a vengeful tactic because of 2010 contract talks.

[cdnavater]

You are making a rather large assumption that AC will still entertain negotiating with us at any point in the near future. They may not.

Edited to include the quote. Sorry about that.

You seem a little fear mongery to me. They have plans B, C, and D if you guys say no to this. All of which have a good chance of being better than this. They keep working with you guys so they are just as unhappy with the status quo as you are.

Look to your leadership. They have more context and background knowledge that has them unwilling to endorse this.

They also didn't reject it. Because they know there is a risk to voting no. It isn't fear mongering when you are familiar with ACs history. SR was started simply as a vengeful tactic because of 2010 contract talks.

Yes, they literally said, it would be “irresponsible” not to let us vote, implying they know there is a risk!

[hithere]

Everyone also needs to understand that the exclusivity on CPA work that Jazz was supposed to have with AC was always due to expire in December of 2025 anyway per the agreement signed in the 2021 deal where Jazz acquired Sky Regional. I’m not sure what would have been gained using bargaining capital to try to shore up and prevent anymore PAL like deals when we can’t even staff our own planes anyway. We have enough aircraft for 850 flights a day and are currently only able to staff 450 a day.
So the 2021 deal was supposed exclusivity on CPA flying until Dec 2025 thereafter the only guarantee was a minimum of 80 76-78 seat aircraft until 2035
The current MOS being voted on includes the earlier retirement of the 50 seat RJs from 2025 to 2024.

[flyingcanuck]

You are making a rather large assumption that AC will still entertain negotiating with us at any point in the near future. They may not.

Edited to include the quote. Sorry about that.

You seem a little fear mongery to me. They have plans B, C, and D if you guys say no to this. All of which have a good chance of being better than this. They keep working with you guys so they are just as unhappy with the status quo as you are.

Look to your leadership. They have more context and background knowledge that has them unwilling to endorse this.

They also didn't reject it. Because they know there is a risk to voting no. It isn't fear mongering when you are familiar with ACs history. SR was started simply as a vengeful tactic because of 2010 contract talks.

yes but they cant start a new one, especially for low wages. there arent any pilots.

[truedude]

Edited to include the quote. Sorry about that.

You seem a little fear mongery to me. They have plans B, C, and D if you guys say no to this. All of which have a good chance of being better than this. They keep working with you guys so they are just as unhappy with the status quo as you are.

Look to your leadership. They have more context and background knowledge that has them unwilling to endorse this.

They also didn't reject it. Because they know there is a risk to voting no. It isn't fear mongering when you are familiar with ACs history. SR was started simply as a vengeful tactic because of 2010 contract talks.

yes but they cant start a new one, especially for low wages. there arent any pilots.

Don't believe for a moment they can't start a new one. At some point our ask will be equal to the cost of starting a new one. We don't know where they have calculated that line is.

[coastdog13]

[/quote]


Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it
[/quote]

So when professional economists are saying there is a very strong likleyhood of a recession in the near future, you say we vote NO because it MAY not happen? Isnt that kind of like an engineer saying "well there is a high probability of the wings falling off this airplane" and you saying "well theres a chance it may not happen, lets go flying".


As said previously there is no strings attatched to this free money. If we say yes and the economy stays good, this MOS wont work and likley AC will come back with more. If we say yes and the economy tanks then we still have a respectable raise.

NO vote puts us in uncharted territory with a spiteful company pulling the strings. A company that has shown on multiple occasions they have little regard for breaking current contracts to benefit ther operation. Saying no is a massive gamble Im not willing to bet on, and neither is my family who my salary feeds.

Its not succumbing fear mongering, its common sense, say yes to free money.

[Goodman5]

Truedude,

You’ve said many times over the last while that you see the decision makers at AC as incompetent, oblivious, playing an outdated game. That you’d be happy to let it burn. That there is a line they have which will force them into reality, requiring market rates for pilots.

You’ve seemed to have switched gears since this proposal. Now AC may drop us off a cliff. Now there’s a line in which they’ll move forward without us. (general gist)

Are we not playing AC’s old game by voting yes on the first (member reviewed) offer? Accepting it in fear of what might happen. If that’s the old game then what’s the new game? I’m pretty sure we’re seeing it play out across the industry. Groups standing up and saying ‘no, do better’.

I agree that this proposal will not fill the cracks in the way of retention/recruitment. Taking the money, and letting them figure that out for themselves in the future is the safe bet. If we’re waiting for them to wake up, might as well wait with more money in our pockets, I get that. But how will they wake up if they’re not told ‘no’, first.

I think I’ve speared myself on the fence.

[Fullflaps]

Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it
[/quote]

So when professional economists are saying there is a very strong likleyhood of a recession in the near future, you say we vote NO because it MAY not happen? Isnt that kind of like an engineer saying "well there is a high probability of the wings falling off this airplane" and you saying "well theres a chance it may not happen, lets go flying".


As said previously there is no strings attatched to this free money. If we say yes and the economy stays good, this MOS wont work and likley AC will come back with more. If we say yes and the economy tanks then we still have a respectable raise.

NO vote puts us in uncharted territory with a spiteful company pulling the strings. A company that has shown on multiple occasions they have little regard for breaking current contracts to benefit ther operation. Saying no is a massive gamble Im not willing to bet on, and neither is my family who my salary feeds.

Its not succumbing fear mongering, its common sense, say yes to free money.
[/quote]

Hahahahahhahaha.. are you seriously considering voting yes for this bread crumbs offer?? 30%??? Lol, no wonder you guys signed the last one for 17 years ! Haha good luck amigos !!

[RRJetPilot]

Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it

So when professional economists are saying there is a very strong likleyhood of a recession in the near future, you say we vote NO because it MAY not happen? Isnt that kind of like an engineer saying "well there is a high probability of the wings falling off this airplane" and you saying "well theres a chance it may not happen, lets go flying".


As said previously there is no strings attatched to this free money. If we say yes and the economy stays good, this MOS wont work and likley AC will come back with more. If we say yes and the economy tanks then we still have a respectable raise.

NO vote puts us in uncharted territory with a spiteful company pulling the strings. A company that has shown on multiple occasions they have little regard for breaking current contracts to benefit ther operation. Saying no is a massive gamble Im not willing to bet on, and neither is my family who my salary feeds.

Its not succumbing fear mongering, its common sense, say yes to free money.
[/quote]

Hahahahahhahaha.. are you seriously considering voting yes for this bread crumbs offer?? 30%??? Lol, no wonder you guys signed the last one for 17 years ! Haha good luck amigos !!
[/quote]

Canadian Loser Mentality.

[Blueontop]

Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it
[/quote]

So when professional economists are saying there is a very strong likleyhood of a recession in the near future, you say we vote NO because it MAY not happen? Isnt that kind of like an engineer saying "well there is a high probability of the wings falling off this airplane" and you saying "well theres a chance it may not happen, lets go flying".


As said previously there is no strings attatched to this free money. If we say yes and the economy stays good, this MOS wont work and likley AC will come back with more. If we say yes and the economy tanks then we still have a respectable raise.

NO vote puts us in uncharted territory with a spiteful company pulling the strings. A company that has shown on multiple occasions they have little regard for breaking current contracts to benefit ther operation. Saying no is a massive gamble Im not willing to bet on, and neither is my family who my salary feeds.

Its not succumbing fear mongering, its common sense, say yes to free money.
[/quote]


Ahhh not quite… apples and oranges there bud. An engineer can back that up with quantifiable data with equations and metallurgical data. Show where the weak points are, stress test it physically. An economist deals with abstract economic theory using “past models” to “predict” the future. They are pretty much guessing like a meteorologist. And there can be a wide variety of guesses based on who you ask. There has literally been predictions that the economy would collapse last year and it never happened yet. And then what do you hear, “economists are puzzled as to why it didn’t happen last year. They are going to have to go back and revise their thinking.”

Engineering is a science while economic theory is more of an art. What is always in the fine print? Past performance does not guarantee future results. Says a lot, eh.

Now I am not saying the experts shouldn’t be listened to at all and they should be taken into account but to base this entire decision all on an economic theory that has already failed their predictions during the pandemic and failed post-pandemic? Look the iron is hot now a year from now, who knows but this deal is already stale.

Fullflaps seems to have captured it best by pointing out jazz pilot mentality is signing a crappy 17 year deal to begin with. Most likely served on a dinner plate with ample side of fear to the pilots. So I guess good luck..

[Tbayer2021]

Vote on the conditions of today, not an imaginary future that MAY NOT even happen.

To all the yes voters out there, if you were guaranteed sunshine and roses in the economy for the next ten years would you still vote yes on this MOS?

Think about it like that and see how you would feel about it

So when professional economists are saying there is a very strong likleyhood of a recession in the near future, you say we vote NO because it MAY not happen? Isnt that kind of like an engineer saying "well there is a high probability of the wings falling off this airplane" and you saying "well theres a chance it may not happen, lets go flying".


As said previously there is no strings attatched to this free money. If we say yes and the economy stays good, this MOS wont work and likley AC will come back with more. If we say yes and the economy tanks then we still have a respectable raise.

NO vote puts us in uncharted territory with a spiteful company pulling the strings. A company that has shown on multiple occasions they have little regard for breaking current contracts to benefit ther operation. Saying no is a massive gamble Im not willing to bet on, and neither is my family who my salary feeds.

Its not succumbing fear mongering, its common sense, say yes to free money.

Hahahahahhahaha.. are you seriously considering voting yes for this bread crumbs offer?? 30%??? Lol, no wonder you guys signed the last one for 17 years ! Haha good luck amigos !!
[/quote]

Canadian Loser Mentality.
[/quote]

Situations like this make it very clear that most canadian pilot are happy with whatever scrap falls off the table. Things couldn't be any better for us and we're still afraid of saying no. We don't want to fight for anything, just be happy with what they're giving you.

[Blueontop]

Unfortunately I think you’re absolutely correct. I think that’s why didn’t truly have our own country until 1983, 207 years after our American brothers.

[RRJetPilot]

Then give half to daddy Trudeau and his bloated government. For shit services and a shit country.

[airway]

Here are selected pay comparisons between the post 2015 Jazz payscale and the proposed one:

1st year FO:
Current - $43.30/credit
Proposed - $64.95/credit
50% increase

Top scale FO:
Current - $89.66/credit
Proposed - $103.11/credit
15% increase

1st year Captain:
Current - $86.59/credit
Proposed - $108.23/credit
25% increase

Top scale Captain:
Current - $143.50/credit
Proposed - $165.03
15% increase



.

[GIVCE!]

Did Westjet say no? Did porter? Did flair? Did PAL? Will AC? Will Jazz? Remove just one of those players from the list in the next 2-4 years and the landscape for pilots looks a lot different in Canada. What is everyone expecting for a raise number if we vote no? You got 25% already year 1 FO’s are almost 50%. How much more is enough? What are you willing to risk to get it? I believe the port workers got 8%.(pleas correct me if I’m wrong). Remember the CRA strike? They got 11.5% over four years.
https://www.hrreporter.com/focus-areas/ ... ent/375662

The point here is we all feel angry and that we deserve more. Jazz is unique in that we are not an airline. We are a wet lease service. We own very little to nothing. Planes and flying included. Sure chorus owns the (most)planes, different company, see what they did there? I’m not saying we should not be looking for more but it’s not the same bargaining with a third party(AC). Why are they even involved in our pay discussion? Are they paying my salary? Who do I work for the;? Hmm….lol just kidding. Anyway rambling here but it’s all good discussion. Each persons situation is different as will be their reasons for voting yes or no.

[Westerncanuck]

Here are selected pay comparisons between the post 2015 Jazz payscale and the proposed one:

1st year FO:
Current - $43.30/credit
Proposed - $64.95/credit
50% increase

Top scale FO:
Current - $89.66/credit
Proposed - $103.11/credit
15% increase

1st year Captain:
Current - $86.59/credit
Proposed - $108.23/credit
25% increase

Top scale Captain:
Current - $143.50/credit
Proposed - $165.03
15% increase



.

It’s more than that though. With the company covering the benefits except STD (Total about $1150/mth for family coverage) the take home up goes up more than that.

[rudder]

Here are selected pay comparisons between the post 2015 Jazz payscale and the proposed one:

1st year FO:
Current - $43.30/credit
Proposed - $64.95/credit
50% increase

Top scale FO:
Current - $89.66/credit
Proposed - $103.11/credit
15% increase

1st year Captain:
Current - $86.59/credit
Proposed - $108.23/credit
25% increase

Top scale Captain:
Current - $143.50/credit
Proposed - $165.03
15% increase



.

Top scale CA is:

01/07/24 +17.3%
01/07/25 +22.6%
01/07/26 +25.1%
01/07/27 +27.6%

Issue isn’t percentage increase, it is going rate.

My prediction is going rate keeps increasing.

[flyingfool]

You guys realize you are voting in a huge concession with LOU 58 right?

LOU 58 - CONTRACT TRAINERS shall take effect upon successful ratification of this MOS-7 agreement and run concurrently with the Collective Agreement.

Any concession should be a hard No in this market

[truedude]

You guys realize you are voting in a huge concession with LOU 58 right?

LOU 58 - CONTRACT TRAINERS shall take effect upon successful ratification of this MOS-7 agreement and run concurrently with the Collective Agreement.

Any concession should be a hard No in this market

That isn't a huge concession. It has an expiry date. Anyone in the company can apply. And if that person is rejected, it needs to be explained to the union as to why.

[flyingfool]

You guys realize you are voting in a huge concession with LOU 58 right?

LOU 58 - CONTRACT TRAINERS shall take effect upon successful ratification of this MOS-7 agreement and run concurrently with the Collective Agreement.

Any concession should be a hard No in this market

That isn't a huge concession. It has an expiry date. Anyone in the company can apply. And if that person is rejected, it needs to be explained to the union as to why.

It literally says it runs concurrently with the collective agreement

Not much of an expiry

And contract worker = scabs

Ask any profession on what "contract" staff does to your ability to maintain leverage

This is a huge huge concession. Full stop!

[truedude]

You guys realize you are voting in a huge concession with LOU 58 right?

LOU 58 - CONTRACT TRAINERS shall take effect upon successful ratification of this MOS-7 agreement and run concurrently with the Collective Agreement.

Any concession should be a hard No in this market

That isn't a huge concession. It has an expiry date. Anyone in the company can apply. And if that person is rejected, it needs to be explained to the union as to why.

It literally says it runs concurrently with the collective agreement

Not much of an expiry

And contract worker = scabs

Ask any profession on what "contract" staff does to your ability to maintain leverage

This is a huge huge concession. Full stop!

It expires Dec 31st 2025. It can only be a total of 10% of all training positions. Preference needs to be given to Jazz pilots. Refusals need to be explained, with disagreements going to arbitration.

So not at all what you are making it out to be.

[Winnikegger]

That isn't a huge concession. It has an expiry date. Anyone in the company can apply. And if that person is rejected, it needs to be explained to the union as to why.

It literally says it runs concurrently with the collective agreement

Not much of an expiry

And contract worker = scabs

Ask any profession on what "contract" staff does to your ability to maintain leverage

This is a huge huge concession. Full stop!

It expires Dec 31st 2025. It can only be a total of 10% of all training positions. Preference needs to be given to Jazz pilots. Refusals need to be explained, with disagreements going to arbitration.

So not at all what you are making it out to be.

So just a "small" concession?

Are other airline pilot groups taking "any" concessions?

[truedude]

It literally says it runs concurrently with the collective agreement

Not much of an expiry

And contract worker = scabs

Ask any profession on what "contract" staff does to your ability to maintain leverage

This is a huge huge concession. Full stop!

It expires Dec 31st 2025. It can only be a total of 10% of all training positions. Preference needs to be given to Jazz pilots. Refusals need to be explained, with disagreements going to arbitration.

So not at all what you are making it out to be.

So just a "small" concession?

Are other airline pilot groups taking "any" concessions?

It is only a concession if the company can't fill the spots internally. They have to try first.

[Morg]

pay is 5$ you get a raise to 10$ that's a 100% raise who cares about percentages can you pay your bills and save for the future !

[cdnavater]

It literally says it runs concurrently with the collective agreement

Not much of an expiry

And contract worker = scabs

Ask any profession on what "contract" staff does to your ability to maintain leverage

This is a huge huge concession. Full stop!

It expires Dec 31st 2025. It can only be a total of 10% of all training positions. Preference needs to be given to Jazz pilots. Refusals need to be explained, with disagreements going to arbitration.

So not at all what you are making it out to be.

So just a "small" concession?

Are other airline pilot groups taking "any" concessions?

It’s not really a concession, the priority is Jazz pilots, then Jazz retired pilots, the non Jazz pilots. The first two will fill the gaps and 10% of the roster is at most 8 contract pilots with an end date in place.
I know personally at least 5 retired Jazz pilots who would’ve stayed and went next door because guess who has contract training pilots in their buildings, I’ll give you a hint, it’s the company the pays my salary indirectly.