Is Mr Jones Lying to everyone?

[ziggy]

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/flair-apolo ... -1.6312579

[flyinhigh]

Just trying to control the narrative.

If he gets pushed harder about this he could find himself in some serious doodoo. The fact airborne released their first statement after this just throws more mud on Flair and the BS they have been spewing.

[Gino Under]

And you would know this, how?

No one sues anyone for $50 million frivolously. Especially if they sit on a financial precipice.
But then, you’d know that. Or, you should.
Right?
The illusion that Flair somehow is the only lessee to submit late lease payments isn’t a “thing” in the airline industry. It’s more common than you realize.

[Airbrake]

https://josimarfootball.com/2023/07/03/ ... l-mystery/


It’s a long read, but it touches a lot of the 777 history and Flair in how it fits.

[DanWEC]

Flair created a renevue generating customer in Flair and is monopolizing the profit top to bottom. Pretty simple, normal, and legal.

[WJ200]

Flair created a renevue generating customer in Flair and is monopolizing the profit top to bottom. Pretty simple, normal, and legal.

No this whole venture is shady AF

[co-joe]

Yes let's rehash a story from March and talk about it again.

[fish4life]

Yes let's rehash a story from March and talk about it again.

The 777 partners football club article is not from March

[ant_321]

Yes let's rehash a story from March and talk about it again.

It’s not just a “Story”. It’s a well known fact that 777 partners is nothing but a bunch of crooks. I hope flair can find a way to get out of their agreement with them.

[tbaylx]

Flair created a renevue generating customer in Flair and is monopolizing the profit top to bottom. Pretty simple, normal, and legal.

No this whole venture is shady AF

There are a lot of inaccuracies and speculation in that story from Flair's perspective. We didn't buy any aircraft from 777, most are leased at market rates from 3rd parties.

If 777 managed to profit by buying Max's in the middle of a grounding during covid at discount prices, then reselling to leasing companies at a 10M /tail profit, then that's a shrewd business move. That has nothing to do with flair or their lease rates, however.

[Aviator12]

https://onemileatatime.com/news/777-par ... vestments/
This whole deal has always seemed pretty shady to me. Trouble is brewing…

[вести70]

Flair created a renevue generating customer in Flair and is monopolizing the profit top to bottom. Pretty simple, normal, and legal.

No this whole venture is shady AF

There are a lot of inaccuracies and speculation in that story from Flair's perspective. We didn't buy any aircraft from 777, most are leased at market rates from 3rd parties.

If 777 managed to profit by buying Max's in the middle of a grounding during covid at discount prices, then reselling to leasing companies at a 10M /tail profit, then that's a shrewd business move. That has nothing to do with flair or their lease rates, however.

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2022-63

[72] Subsequent to filing its response on May 3, 2022, Flair informed the Agency that it has agreed to purchase one Boeing MAX 8 aircraft from 777. Flair has also been assigned the direct purchase rights previously held by 777 to acquire from Boeing five new MAX 8 aircraft. Flair has agreed to a sale and leaseback finance arrangement with independent aircraft lessors to fund the direct lease of the existing aircraft that is being acquired from 777 and for four of the new aircraft to be acquired from Boeing. These leases are not subject to any guarantee or financial assistance from 777. The first of these aircraft is to be delivered in June 2022. Flair has filed with the Agency term sheets reflecting these arrangements.


Maybe that's what they referred to? Seems like there was a plan to buy an aircraft ...Thats direct from CTA, but who knows the exact detail of whats happened since.

[Jean-Pierre]

https://onemileatatime.com/news/777-par ... vestments/
This whole deal has always seemed pretty shady to me. Trouble is brewing…

Jesus

[the_new_guy]

I'll give you that the past of some of 777 partners is.. Less than desirable as reported in some articles if true. However I haven't personally verified this info myself so I can't speak to it.

What I can say is that Flair doesn't buy its aircraft, so right there the onemileatatime article is not reporting facts. It also loves to use "reportedly" a lot, and is short on sources that can prove most of the article true.

It looks like an aviation themed sensationalist click bait. Half of it revolves around the airlines buying at a premium the planes from 777, which is just not the case. Some of it could be based in facts, but to what degree is it presented to faithfully paint a picture of reality? When most of it is false I doubt that what is true is depicted in a manner that really speaks to the truth.

Anyway, just saying.. Don't take all of it at face value. I know I don't when I'm told by managers "we're going to be there in 2 years" and "that's how many planes we're going to have in 3 years". Could be true, could not be, but I don't either read a shit article and think of it as factual. What's true and what's not, we'll know in time.

Cheers, and fly safe

[CFM Symphony]

I'll give you that the past of some of 777 partners is.. Less than desirable as reported in some articles if true. However I haven't personally verified this info myself so I can't speak to it.

What I can say is that Flair doesn't buy its aircraft, so right there the onemileatatime article is not reporting facts. It also loves to use "reportedly" a lot, and is short on sources that can prove most of the article true.

It looks like an aviation themed sensationalist click bait. Half of it revolves around the airlines buying at a premium the planes from 777, which is just not the case. Some of it could be based in facts, but to what degree is it presented to faithfully paint a picture of reality? When most of it is false I doubt that what is true is depicted in a manner that really speaks to the truth.

Anyway, just saying.. Don't take all of it at face value. I know I don't when I'm told by managers "we're going to be there in 2 years" and "that's how many planes we're going to have in 3 years". Could be true, could not be, but I don't either read a shit article and think of it as factual. What's true and what's not, we'll know in time.

Cheers, and fly safe

While I agree that the article is poorly written, with multiple spelling errors etc., and while I also value a critical viewpoint, there are likely more than mere kernels of truth in this publication. As for the aircraft ownership issue, Flair does indeed appear to purchase the aircraft from 777 Partners (at the allegedly inflated price) and immediately does a sale-and-leaseback deal with a lessor to continue using said aircraft. But, they are unlikely to be able to use the same purchase value in this deal, so this is where they are on the hook.

[SPR]

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/flair-ceo-s ... -1.1962119

Moreover, Flair must continue to make payments of more than US$7 million per month on its 21 Boeing 737 plane leases and manage loans amounting to between US$200 million and US$300 million, Jones said.

“We do pay expensive debt," he said, citing rates of 18 per cent on loans from 777 Partners, the Miami-based company that owns one-quarter of the airline.

“No one else was standing there willing, during COVID and during high oil prices, to say, ‘You know what, we believe in the vision of a low-cost carrier in Canada, here's some 17 per cent money.’

“The balance sheet is not in great shape," Jones added, but noted the interest is "non-cash" — no monthly payments required — and merely adds to the principal. "At some point there will be some form of reckoning, whether it's a restructure or whatever."

"At some point there will be some form of reckoning, whether it's a restructure or whatever."

That's from the CEO.

[JoeShmoe]

Haha I just read that article as well,

"The balance sheet is not in great shape."

Did this guy get drunk before this interview?? What a wild article, and such weird timing after a month of 90% load factors and the end of swoop you would think Flair would be bragging about a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope they make it but what is the purpose of telling the media how high the interest is on your massive debt??

[Tbayer2021]

Haha I just read that article as well,

"The balance sheet is not in great shape."

Did this guy get drunk before this interview?? What a wild article, and such weird timing after a month of 90% load factors and the end of swoop you would think Flair would be bragging about a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope they make it but what is the purpose of telling the media how high the interest is on your massive debt??

High load factors are only part of the equation. JetsGo had excellent load factors selling $1 tickets.

[Tavpi]

Haha I just read that article as well,

"The balance sheet is not in great shape."

Did this guy get drunk before this interview?? What a wild article, and such weird timing after a month of 90% load factors and the end of swoop you would think Flair would be bragging about a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope they make it but what is the purpose of telling the media how high the interest is on your massive debt??

and to add

"At some point there will be some form of reckoning, whether it's a restructure or whatever."

. I assume restructure as bankruptcy protection?

[cdnavater]

Haha I just read that article as well,

"The balance sheet is not in great shape."

Did this guy get drunk before this interview?? What a wild article, and such weird timing after a month of 90% load factors and the end of swoop you would think Flair would be bragging about a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope they make it but what is the purpose of telling the media how high the interest is on your massive debt??

and to add

"At some point there will be some form of reckoning, whether it's a restructure or whatever."

. I assume restructure as bankruptcy protection?

Yes, that’s CEO language for don’t panic but we are approaching bankruptcy.

[flyinhigh]

Ah don’t worry, cojoe will clarify that his words are being taken out of context and the sending of planes to Australia is normal.

[fish4life]

What seems alarming to me is that they are not even paying the interest on their debt but just adding more principal debt with the interest costs. This is like the payday loan cycle that people get into a downward spiral with.
If you can’t pay down debt right now with one of the most robust travel markets how are you going to pay it down during a shoulder season or slow down?

[DanWEC]

I'll say this yet again for the record. 777 doesn't give a flying rats ass about Flair. They have created a customer with a devils deal in leasing. They will make money from Flair until Flair is done, then wash their hands of it. That's all.

[DanWEC]

I'll say this yet again for the record. 777 doesn't give a flying rats ass about Flair. They have created a customer with a devils deal in leasing. They will make money from Flair until Flair is done, then wash their hand of it. That's all. But trust me, I don't wish any pilot group to fail. Not only for obvious reasons, but also the more competition for labour, the better for all of us.

[WJ200]

Flair created a renevue generating customer in Flair and is monopolizing the profit top to bottom. Pretty simple, normal, and legal.

No this whole venture is shady AF

There are a lot of inaccuracies and speculation in that story from Flair's perspective. We didn't buy any aircraft from 777, most are leased at market rates from 3rd parties.

If 777 managed to profit by buying Max's in the middle of a grounding during covid at discount prices, then reselling to leasing companies at a 10M /tail profit, then that's a shrewd business move. That has nothing to do with flair or their lease rates, however.

I think this should say "that has nothing to do with flair or their lease rates, or whatever!"