Negotiations

[Alkasultzer]

I just want to make sure I understand the logic here:

You need to say "Yes" because the management at Air Canada is so incompetent that you need to take subpar pay to "save" your airline?

[Tbayer2021]

I just want to make sure I understand the logic here:

You need to say "Yes" because the management at Air Canada is so incompetent that you need to take subpar pay to "save" your airline?

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

[truedude]

I just want to make sure I understand the logic here:

You need to say "Yes" because the management at Air Canada is so incompetent that you need to take subpar pay to "save" your airline?

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

[FNGYYZ]

I just want to make sure I understand the logic here:

You need to say "Yes" because the management at Air Canada is so incompetent that you need to take subpar pay to "save" your airline?

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

There have been some changes to the union at mainline if you haven't noticed

And the catalyst to this change was a "No" vote to a MOA

[truedude]

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

There have been some changes to the union at mainline if you haven't noticed

And the catalyst to this change was a "No" vote to a MOA

And I am hopeful for the future. But I also need to see we won't be thrown under the bus when push comes to shove.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Then this MOS won't fix any problems, and they will be back, all while we collect more cash.

I agree with this 100%. This won't fix anything... People will still leave.

[Rowdy]

Does this move to a LOLOP refund for our medical and dental make it a taxable benefit? Do we now lose the deduction after paying as we previously got? If so, does that not further eliminate this as a decent bump in take home pay? I've seen the breakdown someone posted on how much they figured it would be per position/family, but that didnt factor in the tax implications?

As someone else asked, How does this impact LTD? I know we will still be paying for STD at a significant cost. Does it reduce the amount payable to us?

The move to additional credits per position per months at 2 per month. Does that mean 87 credits for 6-7 months in 2024? Thats what it looks like to me.

How about the remainder of this year? The language is confusing and no one will give me a straight answer. I was actually told it was 'window dressing for ac'. I'd rather not be force scheduled into 19 days a month or asked to reduce my min days off...

The current flow established at 60% (used to be 80% express before we took on all the GGN and SKR pilots) which wasn't met, will be reduced to 30% which also won't be met? Where is the penalty incorporated for AC not meeting this target. I'd like to see it outlined before it spends the next 3 years in arbitration when that also doesn't happen. While I'm not moving to AC, it does impact everyone on the list regardless.

Why is the bonus only applied to those between 13 and 20 YOS?

Someone explain the increase in the ERP and DB? I wasn't given an appropriate comment on that.

The CRJ200's being let go a year and a half early. I mean, they're atrocious and we cant staff them anyways.. but still thats a loss of positions.

Why aren't there other incentives attached? J upgrades? POS space commuting? Proper allowances for commuting/out of base trainers? Increase in Vacay credit (currently 4hr per day when min is 4.5) Increase in daily min credit? TB for REA. Full credit for DH? Proper credit for Training (CRM/ART/GS)? C3 or greater passes?

I know it'll pass by a small margin because people just want $$ now... but I honestly cant in good conscience vote for this.

[Inverted2]

Does this move to a LOLOP refund for our medical and dental make it a taxable benefit? Do we now lose the deduction after paying as we previously got? If so, does that not further eliminate this as a decent bump in take home pay? I've seen the breakdown someone posted on how much they figured it would be per position/family, but that didnt factor in the tax implications?

As someone else asked, How does this impact LTD? I know we will still be paying for STD at a significant cost. Does it reduce the amount payable to us?

The move to additional credits per position per months at 2 per month. Does that mean 87 credits for 6-7 months in 2024? Thats what it looks like to me.

How about the remainder of this year? The language is confusing and no one will give me a straight answer. I was actually told it was 'window dressing for ac'. I'd rather not be force scheduled into 19 days a month or asked to reduce my min days off...

The current flow established at 60% (used to be 80% express before we took on all the GGN and SKR pilots) which wasn't met, will be reduced to 30% which also won't be met? Where is the penalty incorporated for AC not meeting this target. I'd like to see it outlined before it spends the next 3 years in arbitration when that also doesn't happen. While I'm not moving to AC, it does impact everyone on the list regardless.

Why is the bonus only applied to those between 13 and 20 YOS?

Someone explain the increase in the ERP and DB? I wasn't given an appropriate comment on that.

The CRJ200's being let go a year and a half early. I mean, they're atrocious and we cant staff them anyways.. but still thats a loss of positions.

Why aren't there other incentives attached? J upgrades? POS space commuting? Proper allowances for commuting/out of base trainers? Increase in Vacay credit (currently 4hr per day when min is 4.5) Increase in daily min credit? TB for REA. Full credit for DH? Proper credit for Training (CRM/ART/GS)? C3 or greater passes?

I know it'll pass by a small margin because people just want $$ now... but I honestly cant in good conscience vote for this.

I sure as hell ain’t working 19 days a month for the foreseeable future. I foresee some personal days and sick time for sure.

[Westerncanuck]

p.s. company paid LTD is now (effectively) reduced to 65% of pre-disability pay for a top scale CA and even lower for a top scale Training Pilot as the MOS did not mention updating the hard limit monthly LTD benefit amount.

This hasn’t changed. There has always been a cap on LTD that was lower than pre-disability income.

[cdnavater]

FNG Wrote;
“There have been some changes to the union at mainline if you haven't noticed

And the catalyst to this change was a "No" vote to a MOA“


Yes there have been changes, however human nature is human nature and if AC offered a sweetheart deal to get some kind of let or repatriate more flying in exchange for relief on the widebody language, there are still plenty of AC pilots that hold a grudge.
Also you voting no on the MOA under the idea they will come back, how’d that work out for you?
You are now in full blown negotiations and the uncertainty that comes with that.
We do not have the ability and in fact the only reason you are is because AC didn’t meet an obligation that gave you an early out, we have no such clause.

[DanWEC]

There are guys here that would vote yes to another absolutely hilarious contract that even your own union doesn't endorse?

Hoooooly. I don't even have words.

[truedude]

There are guys here that would vote yes to another absolutely hilarious contract that even your own union doesn't endorse?

Hoooooly. I don't even have words.

Considering we aren't in formal negots, and everyone gets at a minimum 15% uplift, with more of the benefits covered, hard to mock people for voting yes.

The unions perspective is it won't fix the issues, but this was what they can get, and you high a number to not let the membership vote on it.

[cdnavater]

There are guys here that would vote yes to another absolutely hilarious contract that even your own union doesn't endorse?

Hoooooly. I don't even have words.

Guys where?
What’s hilarious about this?
No extension, no concessions, just increase, I don’t understand what’s so funny

[RoAF-Mig21]

There are guys here that would vote yes to another absolutely hilarious contract that even your own union doesn't endorse?

Hoooooly. I don't even have words.

Imagine being a new Jazz F/O, with 700 hrs, that just got a spot on the Q400, CRJ900 or E175. You can go from $43.30 per hour to $64.95 per hour. Would you vote "NO" to that? How much more do you think they'd get?

[DanWEC]

Because it's NOT ENOUGH.

Mentioning concessions here in the same breath is absurd. That's stockholming hard. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but you've got to know your worth.

What's going on here is you had a house worth $500k 10 years ago, and now because of supply and demand it's worth $1m. Someone comes along and says they'll give you $600k, and says you should take it because "It's more than it used to be". But is it market value? Would anyone in their right mind accept it? Just something to think about guys.

[truedude]

Because it's NOT ENOUGH.

Mentioning concessions here in the same breath is absurd. That's stockholming hard. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but you've got to know your worth.

What's going on here is you had a house worth $500k 10 years ago, and now because of supply and demand it's worth $1m. Someone comes along and says they'll give you $600k, and says you should take it because "It's more than it used to be". But is it market value? Would anyone in their right mind accept it? Just something to think about guys.

Except the people offering the 600k also own the land in which your house is built on...

[rudder]

p.s. company paid LTD is now (effectively) reduced to 65% of pre-disability pay for a top scale CA and even lower for a top scale Training Pilot as the MOS did not mention updating the hard limit monthly LTD benefit amount.

This hasn’t changed. There has always been a cap on LTD that was lower than pre-disability income.

Yes. But the formula is 70% tax exposed. The monthly benefit limit was specifically calculated at ACP salary (normal rate x 1.10 x 85 x 0.7).

Based on the MOA, it is a formula reduction (but not technically a reduction from current absolute benefit limit).

On the other hand, the STD cap seems to still capture the rate increase although I think the ACP might see their benefit capped below 60%.

[RoAF-Mig21]

.

[airway]

Here are selected pay comparisons between the post 2015 Jazz payscale and the proposed one:

1st year FO:
Current - $43.30/credit
Proposed - $64.95/credit
50% increase

Top scale FO:
Current - $89.66/credit
Proposed - $103.11/credit
15% increase

1st year Captain:
Current - $86.59/credit
Proposed - $108.23/credit
25% increase

Top scale Captain:
Current - $143.50/credit
Proposed - $165.03
15% increase



.

Top scale CA is:

01/07/24 +17.3%
01/07/25 +22.6%
01/07/26 +25.1%
01/07/27 +27.6%

Issue isn’t percentage increase, it is going rate.

My prediction is going rate keeps increasing.

True.

I think Westjet got 24% over 4 years?
The proposed top scale Jazz Capt. pay is 25.1% over 4 years.





.

[cdnavater]

Because it's NOT ENOUGH.

Mentioning concessions here in the same breath is absurd. That's stockholming hard. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but you've got to know your worth.

What's going on here is you had a house worth $500k 10 years ago, and now because of supply and demand it's worth $1m. Someone comes along and says they'll give you $600k, and says you should take it because "It's more than it used to be". But is it market value? Would anyone in their right mind accept it? Just something to think about guys.

Except we not only don’t own the land, we sold our house and leased it back for 17(12 remaining) years. We don’t have the right to sell it because we already did and that was the choice we made back then.
What’s going on here is, we sold our house and they are coming back to give us a little more due to its value increasing over time, I’ll take it.
Also, what concessions?

[Westerncanuck]

Here are selected pay comparisons between the post 2015 Jazz payscale and the proposed one:

1st year FO:
Current - $43.30/credit
Proposed - $64.95/credit
50% increase

Top scale FO:
Current - $89.66/credit
Proposed - $103.11/credit
15% increase

1st year Captain:
Current - $86.59/credit
Proposed - $108.23/credit
25% increase

Top scale Captain:
Current - $143.50/credit
Proposed - $165.03
15% increase



.

Top scale CA is:

01/07/24 +17.3%
01/07/25 +22.6%
01/07/26 +25.1%
01/07/27 +27.6%

Issue isn’t percentage increase, it is going rate.

My prediction is going rate keeps increasing.

True.

I think Westjet got 24% over 4 years?
The proposed top scale Jazz Capt. pay is 25.1% over 4 years.





.

I am a senior captain and I estimate my take home will go up 25-30% with the reduced benefit costs and salary increase. That’s without any OT.

[DanWEC]

My opinion is that the amount that's floated to you guys by the end of this 4 year proposal is what it needs be to immediately to accommodate for inflation and market value, not at the end of 4 years. They've reaped the benefits of below-market labour for long enough to be able to give quite a bit back. Keep in mind it's likely to see another 15% inflation by 2027 which negates the gains near the end. At least there isn't some decade long contract being proposed again.

[Kennythegreat]

Concessions are essential. We need to help the company

I love these concessions:

- decrease of flow to 30%

- increase of max credits for remainder of 2023 & all of 2024. I hate my family anyways!!

- hiring of contract instructors

- tossing the CRJ 200s

Great stuff. I always vote YES to concessions

[TheAlcalde]

FNG Wrote;
“There have been some changes to the union at mainline if you haven't noticed

And the catalyst to this change was a "No" vote to a MOA“

Also you voting no on the MOA under the idea they will come back, how’d that work out for you?
You are now in full blown negotiations and the uncertainty that comes with that.

No regrets. The concessions weren’t worth the peanuts they were tossing us. I’ve only heard good things about jazz’s contract compared to AC. Don’t let them erode that. No concessions.

If the company’s garbage wages cant attract or retain talent, they can fix that problem without asking for lets in our contract.

[rudder]

p.s. company paid LTD is now (effectively) reduced to 65% of pre-disability pay for a top scale CA and even lower for a top scale Training Pilot as the MOS did not mention updating the hard limit monthly LTD benefit amount.

Hey Rudder, thanks for your always factual inputs!
What are your thoughts on whether or not we should take the free(ish) money?
I don’t see the training let as a concession per se, besides the fact we are now letting pilots stay past 65, officially, shhh not sure if that’s a secret or not.
But you are very analytical and given all the facts, how do you see this shaking out?
The mother ship has been very very slow to do anything, as you say this agreement is a year late, so why would any Jazz pilot have any reason to think a no would send it back for more. They clearly think this is enough otherwise they wouldn’t have turned down the previous negotiated agreement?
Please give us your thoughts on a NO vote, the others on here won’t hear it from the rest of us!

Jazz has been sliding backwards since 2015. The plan to do so was hatched in 2010. It wasn’t hatched in YHZ.

2023 simply reminds everybody that Jazz is a ‘paid lift’ provider. Perhaps as a wholly owned there might be more leverage (that didn’t work out so well in 1997). Reality is that there is no aligned vision. No teamwork. No partnership. There is simply a never ending quest to control or reduce regional cost.

The fact that in 2023 pilots are as sought after as water in the desert is the only bargaining chip.

This MOS won’t change anything. Take the money. Pull up a chair. And watch Jazz continue to shrink.

There is an old adage “We would rather have 100 good pilot jobs than 1000 mediocre pilot jobs”. Jazz is about to test that axiom.