Negotiations

[Nick678]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

[cdnavater]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

Hey Nick, I’m very curious of about how long you have been at Jazz?
We definitely have the beaten dog syndrome but the supposed negative aspects or concessions all have end dates, which means they are temporary and a good starting point.
You may have the luxury of being young enough that you can start over but many pilots here are 50+ which is not enough time in the grand scheme to start over BOTL and still retire half decently.
However, why are you still at Jazz?
Honest question, since you have been very vocal for quite a while, I’m wondering why you are still here?
Most of us can’t but believe me, if I could feasibly start over I most definitely would. Young enough, I would roll the dice with Porter, probably not Flair unless that was a means to get to AC other than through Jazz.
Does this fix anything the company is trying to fix, no!
Does this get us a little caught up with inflation, absolutely, not completely but it’s better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk.
If we all agree it’s not enough, I think we should be able to agree that the company may come back to offer more down the road but as far as something forthcoming immediately, that is likely in the neighborhood of craps at the casino odds. It’s more likely on to plan c or d at that point.
I can most certainly state with confidence that while negotiations are on going with AC ALPA, they will only give the minimum to us that they feel will slow the bleeding. If you want to roll the dice on that, you may find yourself working for less money for much longer than anticipated.
My advice, not happy with this, show them with your feet, as for me, I’ve already put my yes vote in and won’t be swayed by the young who don’t know what beatings are and apparently can’t empathize with us.

[Westerncanuck]

…..there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

Please elaborate what all these ‘negative elements’ are.

[CaptDukeNukem]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

Hey Nick, I’m very curious of about how long you have been at Jazz?
We definitely have the beaten dog syndrome but the supposed negative aspects or concessions all have end dates, which means they are temporary and a good starting point.
You may have the luxury of being young enough that you can start over but many pilots here are 50+ which is not enough time in the grand scheme to start over BOTL and still retire half decently.
However, why are you still at Jazz?
Honest question, since you have been very vocal for quite a while, I’m wondering why you are still here?
Most of us can’t but believe me, if I could feasibly start over I most definitely would. Young enough, I would roll the dice with Porter, probably not Flair unless that was a means to get to AC other than through Jazz.
Does this fix anything the company is trying to fix, no!
Does this get us a little caught up with inflation, absolutely, not completely but it’s better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk.
If we all agree it’s not enough, I think we should be able to agree that the company may come back to offer more down the road but as far as something forthcoming immediately, that is likely in the neighborhood of craps at the casino odds. It’s more likely on to plan c or d at that point.
I can most certainly state with confidence that while negotiations are on going with AC ALPA, they will only give the minimum to us that they feel will slow the bleeding. If you want to roll the dice on that, you may find yourself working for less money for much longer than anticipated.
My advice, not happy with this, show them with your feet, as for me, I’ve already put my yes vote in and won’t be swayed by the young who don’t know what beatings are and apparently can’t empathize with us.

“The beatings will continue until morale improves.”

Quoted a million and a half times. But absolutely spot on.

[cdnavater]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

Hey Nick, I’m very curious of about how long you have been at Jazz?
We definitely have the beaten dog syndrome but the supposed negative aspects or concessions all have end dates, which means they are temporary and a good starting point.
You may have the luxury of being young enough that you can start over but many pilots here are 50+ which is not enough time in the grand scheme to start over BOTL and still retire half decently.
However, why are you still at Jazz?
Honest question, since you have been very vocal for quite a while, I’m wondering why you are still here?
Most of us can’t but believe me, if I could feasibly start over I most definitely would. Young enough, I would roll the dice with Porter, probably not Flair unless that was a means to get to AC other than through Jazz.
Does this fix anything the company is trying to fix, no!
Does this get us a little caught up with inflation, absolutely, not completely but it’s better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk.
If we all agree it’s not enough, I think we should be able to agree that the company may come back to offer more down the road but as far as something forthcoming immediately, that is likely in the neighborhood of craps at the casino odds. It’s more likely on to plan c or d at that point.
I can most certainly state with confidence that while negotiations are on going with AC ALPA, they will only give the minimum to us that they feel will slow the bleeding. If you want to roll the dice on that, you may find yourself working for less money for much longer than anticipated.
My advice, not happy with this, show them with your feet, as for me, I’ve already put my yes vote in and won’t be swayed by the young who don’t know what beatings are and apparently can’t empathize with us.

“The beatings will continue until morale improves.”

Quoted a million and a half times. But absolutely spot on.

I believe this will improve morale, over the last year and a bit with no sign of them wanting to make any sort of improvement made Jazz pilots feel completely not wanted. At times we wondered if they would do anything at all to stop the demise of this once great place to work.
Something is still better than nothing and I hope people see that!
Every single pilot that came to Jazz should have had zero illusions that improvements were coming, there was literally zero reason for them to do that. 17 year agreement with no strike clause, what would make anyone think otherwise, I had no illusions and was prepared to and still am, to work under the agreement until I retire. The big question was with all the movement, was that still possible without improvement.
To all the no people, what did you think when you came to Jazz, long term contract and you thought well surely they’ll improve that?
The only variable and it is still yet to be dealt with was the flow, AC and Jazz should have been honouring that and to what level they didn’t will be decided by an arbitrator. We actually don’t know the real numbers because when there is more than one side to a story, you need to look in the middle. Union says 300+ pilots affected but were there 300 who were considered “eligible”?
This mentality of it’s not enough and hold out for more is not based on the reality of who we’re dealing with.
Look at AC right now, first thing management did was remove something that was of value that was not part of the agreement, they are adversarial, always! Them wanting to work with pilots is lip service and only applies if it’s you working with them!
We’ll find out tomorrow what the future looks like but I certainly don’t want to find out the hard way that they simply won’t work with us any longer.
Good luck Jazz pilots!


PS. Can’t wait for tomorrow, I’ll either be defending how much Jazz pilots suck, oh let’s face it, either way that will be the case!

[Nick678]

…..there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

Please elaborate what all these ‘negative elements’ are.

Did you read it?

5 are negative, helping the company not the pilots

1. Reduction of flow
2. Freezes
3. Increase in maximum credits
4. contract trainers
5. Loosing the 200’s early

[Nick678]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

Hey Nick, I’m very curious of about how long you have been at Jazz?
We definitely have the beaten dog syndrome but the supposed negative aspects or concessions all have end dates, which means they are temporary and a good starting point.
You may have the luxury of being young enough that you can start over but many pilots here are 50+ which is not enough time in the grand scheme to start over BOTL and still retire half decently.
However, why are you still at Jazz?
Honest question, since you have been very vocal for quite a while, I’m wondering why you are still here?
Most of us can’t but believe me, if I could feasibly start over I most definitely would. Young enough, I would roll the dice with Porter, probably not Flair unless that was a means to get to AC other than through Jazz.
Does this fix anything the company is trying to fix, no!
Does this get us a little caught up with inflation, absolutely, not completely but it’s better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk.
If we all agree it’s not enough, I think we should be able to agree that the company may come back to offer more down the road but as far as something forthcoming immediately, that is likely in the neighborhood of craps at the casino odds. It’s more likely on to plan c or d at that point.
I can most certainly state with confidence that while negotiations are on going with AC ALPA, they will only give the minimum to us that they feel will slow the bleeding. If you want to roll the dice on that, you may find yourself working for less money for much longer than anticipated.
My advice, not happy with this, show them with your feet, as for me, I’ve already put my yes vote in and won’t be swayed by the young who don’t know what beatings are and apparently can’t empathize with us.

DM me your @jazz.ca email and I’ll share, we can hash it out.

Are you a green circle pilot with a DB pension and C2’s? Did your YOS shift over when you upgraded?

I bet your tail wags when they talk about the longterm service award?

[rudder]

Prediction:

85% participation

68% yes

That would equal 58% of eligible voters in favour. That is never the type of ratification result you want to see for unity. But it is exactly the type of ratification result you get when you vote on company ‘final’ offers.

Unity will be a tough sell going forward. Demographics are not working in favour of common purpose.

In the future, I would tell the employer that empowered individuals be direct participants in any bargaining or there will be no bargaining. No more fishing expeditions.

[cdnavater]

…..there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

Please elaborate what all these ‘negative elements’ are.

Did you read it?

5 are negative, helping the company not the pilots

1. Reduction of flow
2. Freezes
3. Increase in maximum credits
4. contract trainers
5. Loosing the 200’s early

1. That was in my survey, reduce or get rid of flow in exchange for more money, that is what was holding us back!
2. The freeze is from actually doing the upgrade but you get bypass pay, what’s the problem?
3. The increase is for productivity and for 3 months, you honestly think they wouldn’t ask for something, you still get paid for it and at time and a half as well as additional 2 hours time bank, boo hoo, more money!
4. If you apply for the job, that’ll be one less contract trainer, active Jazz pilots first and the union is monitoring it.
5. Hate to break it to you, most of them were already gone and as the union stated, we couldn’t staff them anyway

[thepoors]

…..there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

Please elaborate what all these ‘negative elements’ are.

Did you read it?

5 are negative, helping the company not the pilots

1. Reduction of flow
2. Freezes
3. Increase in maximum credits
4. contract trainers
5. Loosing the 200’s early

Hahaha it's spelled losing and those things are far past their "best by" date. Good riddance.

[cdnavater]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

Hey Nick, I’m very curious of about how long you have been at Jazz?
We definitely have the beaten dog syndrome but the supposed negative aspects or concessions all have end dates, which means they are temporary and a good starting point.
You may have the luxury of being young enough that you can start over but many pilots here are 50+ which is not enough time in the grand scheme to start over BOTL and still retire half decently.
However, why are you still at Jazz?
Honest question, since you have been very vocal for quite a while, I’m wondering why you are still here?
Most of us can’t but believe me, if I could feasibly start over I most definitely would. Young enough, I would roll the dice with Porter, probably not Flair unless that was a means to get to AC other than through Jazz.
Does this fix anything the company is trying to fix, no!
Does this get us a little caught up with inflation, absolutely, not completely but it’s better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk.
If we all agree it’s not enough, I think we should be able to agree that the company may come back to offer more down the road but as far as something forthcoming immediately, that is likely in the neighborhood of craps at the casino odds. It’s more likely on to plan c or d at that point.
I can most certainly state with confidence that while negotiations are on going with AC ALPA, they will only give the minimum to us that they feel will slow the bleeding. If you want to roll the dice on that, you may find yourself working for less money for much longer than anticipated.
My advice, not happy with this, show them with your feet, as for me, I’ve already put my yes vote in and won’t be swayed by the young who don’t know what beatings are and apparently can’t empathize with us.

DM me your @jazz.ca email and I’ll share, we can hash it out.

Are you a green circle pilot with a DB pension and C2’s? Did your YOS shift over when you upgraded?

I bet your tail wags when they talk about the longterm service award?

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, you came to Jazz knowing full well what the pay and conditions were, I get it you were turned down by AC and now no one else will hire you so your stuck. Not my problem, you trying to sink a company out of spite is not healthy for you.
Remember, you accepted the conditions when you accepted the job, this is an improvement with minor temporary gives, not permanent so relax and get paid a little more while we wait and see if they want to fix us or end us.

[Turboprops]

Remember, you accepted the conditions when you accepted the job

What a weak argument. They promised me the 60% flow, hence I was okay with $42 an hour. They lied to me, they had the balls to say “Jazz is the fastest way to AC” during interviews. Now that there’s no flow, we want industry standard pay, and this MOS is below that, how difficult is this concept to you?
50% raise over a pile of shit is still a pile of shit then some. Sadly Jazz pilots seem to have no spine and are just too scared of AC. The “temporary gives” is giving up leverage, why is this so hard to understand?

[truedude]

Remember, you accepted the conditions when you accepted the job

What a weak argument. They promised me the 60% flow, hence I was okay with $42 an hour. They lied to me, they had the balls to say “Jazz is the fastest way to AC” during interviews. Now that there’s no flow, we want industry standard pay, and this MOS is below that, how difficult is this concept to you?
50% raise over a pile of shit is still a pile of shit then some. Sadly Jazz pilots seem to have no spine and are just too scared of AC. The “temporary gives” is giving up leverage, why is this so hard to understand?

Jazz isn't short 250hr pilots. Jazz is short captains. What exactly about this offer would change someone's desire to come to Jazz with experience. Nothing at all. The problem remains. Nothing will get fixed.

[QKZXKV]

While everyone agrees this won’t fix anything and just delays another deal there is a lot of negative elements within it and the deal is not what the group wanted, plan and simple.

I understand now why the MEC never brought us the other shitty offers, the beat dogs of our pilot group would jump on anything that puts more money in their pockets, fearful of another beating if they don’t accept it.

Hey Nick, I’m very curious of about how long you have been at Jazz?
We definitely have the beaten dog syndrome but the supposed negative aspects or concessions all have end dates, which means they are temporary and a good starting point.
You may have the luxury of being young enough that you can start over but many pilots here are 50+ which is not enough time in the grand scheme to start over BOTL and still retire half decently.
However, why are you still at Jazz?
Honest question, since you have been very vocal for quite a while, I’m wondering why you are still here?
Most of us can’t but believe me, if I could feasibly start over I most definitely would. Young enough, I would roll the dice with Porter, probably not Flair unless that was a means to get to AC other than through Jazz.
Does this fix anything the company is trying to fix, no!
Does this get us a little caught up with inflation, absolutely, not completely but it’s better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk.
If we all agree it’s not enough, I think we should be able to agree that the company may come back to offer more down the road but as far as something forthcoming immediately, that is likely in the neighborhood of craps at the casino odds. It’s more likely on to plan c or d at that point.
I can most certainly state with confidence that while negotiations are on going with AC ALPA, they will only give the minimum to us that they feel will slow the bleeding. If you want to roll the dice on that, you may find yourself working for less money for much longer than anticipated.
My advice, not happy with this, show them with your feet, as for me, I’ve already put my yes vote in and won’t be swayed by the young who don’t know what beatings are and apparently can’t empathize with us.

DM me your @jazz.ca email and I’ll share, we can hash it out.

Are you a green circle pilot with a DB pension and C2’s? Did your YOS shift over when you upgraded?

I bet your tail wags when they talk about the longterm service award?

Nick678,

I wouldn't bother with this person. After all, he seems to think only current Jazz people are entitled to comment here on a public forum. If I had to guess this could be the same guy who was putting his contact info up on the ALPA forum back in 2019 and demanding people contact him if they were against that MOS.

It's quite obvious this all because he wants his final push on his green circle crap before he heads off to retirement. That is mission accomplished for AC when that whole thing was created in 2015 (to divide the GC from non-GC every time there's a negotiation).

[CanadaAir]

Forgetting?

Majority of Jazz pilots voted for a $7 to $8 hourly pay reduction for pilots hired after 2015, year 1 captains & year 1 fo.

There're posts calling this MOS a large raise compared to the current scale.
It's smaller increase compared to the pre 2015 pay rates inflation adjusted.

The majority of Jazz pilots voted for a salary decrease, many at AC now.

[rudder]

Forgetting?

Majority of Jazz pilots voted for a $7 to $8 hourly pay reduction for pilots hired after 2015, year 1 captains & year 1 fo.

There're posts calling this MOS a large raise compared to the current scale.
It's smaller increase compared to the pre 2015 pay rates inflation adjusted.

The majority of Jazz pilots voted for a salary decrease, many at AC now.

Over 50% of those voters were voting for the flow. It didn’t matter what was left behind.

25 years ago I was flying a D8. These proposed rates don’t even reach that inflation adjusted pay scale from 1999 even though the revenue generated per flight hour has nearly doubled. The big winner is and has always been the employer. They have achieved massive discounts owing to never ending burning platforms, friendly federal governments, and a tour through CCAA.

They will always go back to the same playbook. Always.

[Westerncanuck]

Please elaborate what all these ‘negative elements’ are.

Did you read it?

5 are negative, helping the company not the pilots

1. Reduction of flow
2. Freezes
3. Increase in maximum credits
4. contract trainers
5. Loosing the 200’s early

1. That was in my survey, reduce or get rid of flow in exchange for more money, that is what was holding us back!
2. The freeze is from actually doing the upgrade but you get bypass pay, what’s the problem?
3. The increase is for productivity and for 3 months, you honestly think they wouldn’t ask for something, you still get paid for it and at time and a half as well as additional 2 hours time bank, boo hoo, more money!
4. If you apply for the job, that’ll be one less contract trainer, active Jazz pilots first and the union is monitoring it.
5. Hate to break it to you, most of them were already gone and as the union stated, we couldn’t staff them anyway

+1

[rudder]

Prediction:

85% participation

68% yes

That would equal 58% of eligible voters in favour. That is never the type of ratification result you want to see for unity. But it is exactly the type of ratification result you get when you vote on company ‘final’ offers.

Unity will be a tough sell going forward. Demographics are not working in favour of common purpose.

In the future, I would tell the employer that empowered individuals be direct participants in any bargaining or there will be no bargaining. No more fishing expeditions.

89% participation.

62% yes

55.5% of eligible voters supported the MOS.

[Hangry]

Yuk

[QKZXKV]

Prediction:

85% participation

68% yes

That would equal 58% of eligible voters in favour. That is never the type of ratification result you want to see for unity. But it is exactly the type of ratification result you get when you vote on company ‘final’ offers.

Unity will be a tough sell going forward. Demographics are not working in favour of common purpose.

In the future, I would tell the employer that empowered individuals be direct participants in any bargaining or there will be no bargaining. No more fishing expeditions.

89% participation.

62% yes

55.5% of eligible voters supported the MOS.

We'd never know but it would be interesting to know GC vs Non-GS and Hires within the last 1-2 yrs vs those longer.

[braaap Braap]

How disappointing. Good Job Jazz, can hear the cheering in the AC boardroom from here.

[altiplano]

Looks like a case of looking out for yourself vs. looking out for the position and the profession.

Sure sucks watching pilots in this country lose all the time.

[bob99]

That's embarrassing.

[rudder]

How disappointing. Good Job Jazz, can hear the cheering in the AC boardroom from here.

The Jazz/Express issues don't end with this MOS. Not even close.

Any belly bumping or high fiving in either YUL or YHZ would be a short lived celebration.

There is also a freight train of 5000+ AC pilots coming down the tracks directly at the corp.

[Westerncanuck]

That's embarrassing.

Yeah I am super embarrassed that my take home will go up close to 30%