Negotiations

[Jester123]

How disappointing. Good Job Jazz, can hear the cheering in the AC boardroom from here.

The Jazz/Express issues don't end with this MOS. Not even close.

Any belly bumping or high fiving in either YUL or YHZ would be a short lived celebration.

There is also a freight train of 5000+ AC pilots coming down the tracks directly at the corp.

Don't know who belly bumps nowadays but us folks do chest bumping out here in the city.

[altiplano]

That's embarrassing.

Yeah I am super embarrassed that my take home will go up close to 30%

Looks like a case of looking out for yourself vs. looking out for the position and the profession.

[Westerncanuck]

That's embarrassing.

Yeah I am super embarrassed that my take home will go up close to 30%

Looks like a case of looking out for yourself vs. looking out for the position and the profession.

Yeah it's bad for the profession that everyone at Jazz will get a significant uplift in take home pay, along with a contract that is better in many ways then most contracts in Canada.

Please tell what you have been doing to 'look out for the position and profession'?

[rudder]

Yeah I am super embarrassed that my take home will go up close to 30%

Looks like a case of looking out for yourself vs. looking out for the position and the profession.

Yeah it's bad for the profession that everyone at Jazz will get a significant uplift in take home pay, along with a contract that is better in many ways then most contracts in Canada.

Please tell what you have been doing to 'look out for the position and profession'?

A 20 year pay scale is an embarrassment to the profession. You cannot perfume that pig.

[hithere]

All of the recent votes- AC MOS last fall, Flair, WestJet - in not a single one of those cases was the pilot group concerned that a no vote could send their company into irrelevancy and a slow agonizing death. Jazz bargaining realities are so very different than virtually all other 705 carriers in Canada.

[altiplano]

If you say so...

Nowhere does AC replace that lift with the exception of the reality of upgauging beck to mainline due to demand and infrastructure limitations.

Jazz was and still is the cheapest and best option for CPA lift, they didn't consolidate everything there (SKV, GGN) just to shut Jazz down.

As rudder said... 20 year pay scale? Give me a break.

Your own MEC didn't even recommend the deal and you still voted for it?

[hithere]

They were neutral on it and left it up to everyone’s personal situation/risk tolerance etc on how to vote. And so they did. That’s democracy
And not sure if you missed the part where pre-Covid Jazz had 850 flights per day. We are now at 400-450 and upguaging to 220s and outsourcing to PAL is well underway. I guess you’d have to be at Jazz to understand the very real existential threat we face

[hsilgnepilot]

I find it truly appalling, that for months, a lot of the Jazz pilot group have been talking negatively towards the MEC for poor representation & calling for resignations of people like CB.

Now they’re ratifying a deal that wasn’t even recommended to be ratified. This is a horrible look for the group, and will prove extremely divisive. Exactly what management wants.

[QKZXKV]

They were neutral on it and left it up to everyone’s personal situation/risk tolerance etc on how to vote. And so they did. That’s democracy
And not sure if you missed the part where pre-Covid Jazz had 850 flights per day. We are now at 400-450 and upguaging to 220s and outsourcing to PAL is well underway. I guess you’d have to be at Jazz to understand the very real existential threat we face

The threat of what???? If there was a threat of AC killing off Jazz, they'd have not bothered with negotiating this MOS. This certainly won't correct that at all.

[hithere]

Existential threat means threat to one’s existence.
That’s what it means. AC told the MEC this was their last offer to the Jazz pilots. Potentially if we had said no they would have continued on their upguaging/outsourcing parade. Clearly these exclusivity provisions that Jazz has mean nothing when we can’t even staff our own aircraft. AC/Jazz management believe this MOS will allow a more controlled reduction of flying down to the min 80 fleet that we have “guaranteed” (lol) from 2025 and beyond. None of the pilots or MEC believe that and 62% were willing to take the money now and wait until management figures out that this MOS does not stop the bleeding. That’s where we are at

[QKZXKV]

Existential threat means threat to one’s existence.
That’s what it means. AC told the MEC this was their last offer to the Jazz pilots. Potentially if we had said no they would have continued on their upguaging/outsourcing parade. Clearly these exclusivity provisions that Jazz has mean nothing when we can’t even staff our own aircraft. Supposedly AC/Jazz management believe this MOS will allow a more controlled reduction of flying down to the min 80 fleet that we have “guaranteed” (lol) from 2025 and beyond. None of the pilots or MEC believe that and 62% were willing to take the money now and wait until management figures out that this MOS does not stop the bleeding. That’s where we are at

PAL can't staff planes either; outsourcing is not a thing... that's just the reality.

[Mr. North]

They were neutral on it and left it up to everyone’s personal situation/risk tolerance etc on how to vote.

Unionism 101: if your leadership is "neutral" on anything it means it's a shit deal!!!

You guys are a JOKE!

[hithere]

Whatever buddy, carry on. Anonymous forums are so much fun

[Westerncanuck]

They were neutral on it and left it up to everyone’s personal situation/risk tolerance etc on how to vote.

Unionism 101: if your leadership is "neutral" on anything it means it's a shit deal!!!

You guys are a JOKE!

Sure Pal.

[altiplano]

Never let a good crisis go to waste...

your "existential threat" = burning platform

It's the same predictable playbook from these guys.

And AC needs to send these routes / shrink you mention to 220 & 319s not because of anything you do or don't do, they are going because there is demand for the larger machines and/or there isn't the space/staff to support the multiples of smaller aircraft. Same slot, same gate, same push crew, same agent, bigger plane, more passengers, and better economics. Your upgauging parade will continue...

[CaptDukeNukem]

The real question now is: When does porter do another benchmark?

[flyinhigh]

The real question now is: When does porter do another benchmark?

Don’t laugh, they might reduce the payscale now. Yes our illustrious FOAG could not stop such a thing. Lol

[Turboprops]

I guess you’d have to be at Jazz to understand the very real existential threat we face

I would not have expected pilots to be this scared during the largest pilot shortage in the history of aviation.
You literally got scared into a yes vote

[BTD]

Never let a good crisis go to waste...

your "existential threat" = burning platform

It's the same predictable playbook from these guys.

And AC needs to send these routes / shrink you mention to 220 & 319s not because of anything you do or don't do, they are going because there is demand for the larger machines and/or there isn't the space/staff to support the multiples of smaller aircraft. Same slot, same gate, same push crew, same agent, bigger plane, more passengers, and better economics. Your upgauging parade will continue...

Normally I agree with you, but on this one I’m on the fence.

If the upgauging parade will continue, then taking this deal doesn’t really matter, and might as well collect a few extra bucks while the Sh*tshow continues.

The real problem is if taking this deal were to stop the bleeding. Then it ain’t good. In the meantime nothing changes except a bigger take home paycheque.

Though I don’t understand the “take the deal to save the flying” mentality.

[hithere]

ALPA National, on behalf of the JAZ MEC, has filed a ULP(unfair Labour practice) against AC management and Jazz management. The Jazz MEC is saying “Sure we will take your money for now, and we will see you soon in front of the CIRB”. Good chess move

[JoeyBarton]

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

Not sure how long you've been around truedude, but thown under the bus goes both ways. If AC came to you tomorrow and said they would give you the 320's, you would jump on it like a fat kid on a smarty. Most routes Jazz fly's, were once flown by AC or a predecessor Airline.

From the outside looking in, Jazz has turned (sadly) to one of the worse jobs in the Country. Unless you're a 250 hr kid, or over 50, I would bail in a heart beat.

And this is the problem, there is no trust between the two groups, makes it very difficult if not impossible to make any progress on anything jointly.
Is that the mentality at AC? They would do it to us so we’ll beat them to it, there was a time I would’ve possibly because of what your group had done to us. Jazz used to be the best regional job in NA and some could have argued the world, when we lost our exclusivity(scope) it’s been going downhill since. We didn’t have our own scope and perhaps that’s because we never imagined a scenario where you(AC Pilots) would give that up but let’s be honest, we don’t own the flying so scope was near impossible for us to achieve.
Look even now, we have been slowly trying to regain that but it was enshrined in the CPA and not our collective, pretty hard to enforce when your company doesn’t. The hardest pill to swallow in all of this mess is that they and you(AC pilots) created this mess and we have to live with the consequences!

It is a ruthless industry, but this hasn't changed much over the decades: work for the payer, not the payee.
It's just way less headaches going forward...

[rudder]

It is done. Now plan next steps.

Some are happy with the raise. Others are unhappy with the raise. Regardless, the extra $$ start getting paid to all Sept 01.

The CHR/Jazz press release made it sound like there is labour peace. But they neglected to include the simultaneous ULP filing by ALPA.

The fall/winter schedule reduction may provide a temporary respite from pilot staffing shortfalls. But the exodus will continue because the pastures are still much greener elsewhere.

This sad chapter has been a huge reminder of the risks and shortcomings of working for a CPA carrier.

[Little Star]

Air Canada's treatment of Jazz pilots may stem from the power dynamics between the two organizations. Jazz pilots have a 17-year collective bargaining agreement that gives them less bargaining power and representation compared to their Air Canada counterparts. This power imbalance could potentially worsen the relationship between the two entities, leading to negative consequences for Jazz pilots.

It's important for Air Canada to understand the long-term effects of their adversarial behaviour towards Jazz pilots. Such behaviour can harm pilots' morale and job satisfaction, ultimately resulting in recruitment and retention issues. It's crucial to recognize the value that Jazz pilots bring to Air Canada's operations and ensure that their needs are properly addressed. By fostering a more cooperative and supportive relationship, Air Canada can enhance its cooperation with Jazz pilots and deliver better service quality overall.

~ written by ChatGPT

[Malfunction]

The biggest flaw in this entire deal. The only reason I believe it passed was in the hopes for a better deal... guys/gals come on. You can't be that dumb. You gave up huge amounts of leverage for peanuts. Your own union didn't support this deal. I'm glad I left.

[dontcallmeshirley]

The average pilot is not privy to the conversations going on behind closed doors. The union is supposed to tell it's pilots when it has been offered a shit deal or when it got the best it can under the circumstances.

Considering Jazz pilots were offered what Encore was given, but with increased work, reduced flow, and a slap in the face of a scope clause, it was obviously not a good deal.

That "no other airline will operate CRJ200s in Canada for an Air Canada codeshare" is bullshit. Why include that? It's the same as telling your wife, "I will not sleep with any of my dead exes in Canada." It serves no purpose other than to rub in your face that you have no meaningful scope and that your Q400 and CRJ705 (900?) will be sent to another airline to take your jobs.