Conair

[Dhc6to8]

My experience with Conair was awesome. Great people and industry leaders work there. They know what they are doing. However, you are selling your summer (as previously mentioned). It takes about 5 years to get into good money. You get two blocks of (paid) 7 days off during the summer - randomly assigned. It was a welcome change, however given other international standards of rotations - being gone for a 130 day assignment is a tough sell to family and to yourself. I have noticed that the up and coming generation of aviators who value a work-life balance will not be interested in a job like this. Conair would do well to revamp the salary schedule and to adopt a more modern rotation system - 2 weeks in, 2 weeks off or 1 month in, 1 month off would attract a lot more suitable candidates. As well, having a pool of pilots who only work the Canadian winter overseas would be appealing to some.
I know guys who have passed on the Conair offer to go elsewhere for a more “liveable” rotation.
The updated advertisement is completely opposite to what was “sold to me” during recruiting years ago - years ago it was sold as a 4 to 5 month contract of “summer camp” now it is being sold as a job where you get a few months off every year. I understand that, fire seasons are becoming longer, and Conair wants to obtain contracts throughout the world in both hemispheres. So, it looks like the nature of the job is changing, and after a Canadian summer some people are electing to work winters in Australia now on the Rj and Q4 fleets. So far it is not in the collective agreement to work a longer rotation, but it might become the norm for the future, who knows. What all this boils down to is what is a summer away worth to you? Do you want to finish up a Canadian summer and leave at the end of August for overseas contracts? If you’re single and don’t have any roots planted then go for it, it’s the adventure of a lifetime and some of the finest aviation available. You’ll work with some awesome people and make friends for life. I just wish that the work was more flexible in terms of rotations and that pilots would have the chance to decide if they want to pass on a summer contract and rather fly during the Canadian winter overseas. A system like that would attract a lot more suitable candidates and aid in their retention.
Conair is a great place and I hope that they modernize their system to be more flexible in the future and that they would bump the salary up for initial hires. I agree with co-joe that the starting salary should be double what it is. Who knows, maybe things will change in the future.
Another important point is that new hires are required to join the Union. The Union takes around 350$ as a one up front payment thereafter 90$ per month all year round. Paying dues all year round took a while to get used to! Your first year you are on probation, so if you do leave before the second season or, you fail to qualify in your second season you are saying goodbye to a small amount of money. And, at first year salary every penny counts. So, know what you are getting yourself into before you sign on. It isn’t fair to Conair or to yourself to give them the “one and done” show after year one. Do your homework, learn as much as you can and go attend one of their open house job fairs. Go meet them and ask questions if you are interested. They are an awesome group of people! Some of the best in the industry!

[dhc#]

Anyone got an update on the latest at Conair...hiring for '23 (are they short pilots like everyone else), any updated WAWCON/schedules, Q400/RJ fleet update, bases, contracts etc. ??

[Big Pistons Forever]

The firebombing lifestyle is the firebombing lifestyle. You are necessarily going to be away most of every summer and new hire pilots will go to tanker bases that are in small and/or northern towns. The average year will involve a lot of sitting around on the base with the occasional bust where you fly your pants off so you have to be able to entertain yourself.

There seems to be 2 kinds of Conair pilots. Pilots try it out and find after 1 to 3 years the lifestyle just doesn't work for them. Almost everybody that makes it to year 5 is a lifer.

The upside is it is IMO the most interesting flying in civil aviation.

[dhc#]

I understand the "lifestyle" aspect of this type of career (been many, many....many threads over the years detailing the job), I am looking more for updated specifics (as in my previous post) if anyone in the know is willing to post or PM...

[digits_]

The firebombing lifestyle is the firebombing lifestyle. You are necessarily going to be away most of every summer and new hire pilots will go to tanker bases that are in small and/or northern towns.

It's not necessary for it to be like this. It's one of the last remaining 'old school' ways of operating that's left.

Lots of companies that offer rotational schedules in the US. There's no reason why the same wouldn't be possible in Canada or why Canadian firebombing pilots should accept CARS min days off in summer.

[propfeather]

looking more for updated specifics (as in my previous post) if anyone in the know is willing to post or PM...

As am I, if anyone would be willing to PM, would be greatly appreciated.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is what should be vs what is. What is, is what I described so if you want to do this line of work you need to go in with your eyes open. Almost nobody left Conair because of the money, they left because the firebombing lifestyle didn’t work for them.

The customer, the Forest Service doesn’t want to pay to double crew the airplanes which is what would be required to have a rotation. Maybe that will change when the companies can’t man airplanes, which is certainly becoming more likely given Industry trends, but that won’t happen for the 2023 season. So if you want to work, go in understanding what is vs what should be.

[Dhc6to8]

It is time for the Canadian firebombing industry to change and pull themselves out of the stone age… every operator in the US now offers rotations and double what Canada pays. One US based operator starts out DEC Captains at 185K USD and 3 weeks On/3 weeks OFF, albeit for a longer season. One European operator even offers 11 day ON/11days OFF for qualified scooper pilots. If companies like Conair want to attract and retain aircrew in the future, they will need to adapt and change the way the job is structured. The old way of doing things, because it was always done that way is not a viable model going forward. The younger generations want a LIFE-WORK balance and if operators don’t adapt, to provide that, then they will find themselves without qualified aircrew. The time of the dinosaurs in Canadian aviation is soon to be a thing of the past. The world evolves and moves on. Conair still has some dinosaurs left in the seniority system and at the management table. Barry Marsden once told me that to secure aircrew in the future he might have to select future pilots and send them for their basic license and training and bond them for a decade just to fill seats. That is not the answer, the answer is to adapt the job so that it provides a lifestyle that is sustainable over a career - by providing rotations that allow an individual to have a LIFE-WORK balance. The dinosaurs sacrificed their marriages, summers and lives - why should the next generation?

[bigredone]

Not all, clearly, pilots want to do 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off for 6-8 months. If this were the case then the free market/free will would not allow a company outside of rotation to exist where in the case of Conair, and many other companies, they not only exist but thrive.

There are less than 100 pilots(RJ85, DH-400, AT802, TC690, C208, CL215T) at Conair Canada and another 50 or so(RJ85, CL415, PC12) in the USA side. There is some cross pollination between the two as far as pilots go but it is sporadic even though it's one company.
In order to keep this readable, I will use majority cases when stating some of what you ask where in actual fact there is a multitude of scenarios but they mostly apply to more pilots with at least a few areas in.

Schedule: 130 consecutive day contracts starting late April-late May whereby 2x7 day periods free from duty. 4 months of 6 week on/1 week off more or less where weeks off is at regular pay with Per-diem but no extra travel allowance. Pilots may elect to remain at assigned location with company provided accomodations where applicable and it's not uncommon for company flights or cars to be made available to help out. Training is generally March/April(Home, online, Abbotsford, SIM locations) with days captured from the 130 days except home study on your own time and days exceeding the 130 paid out 1 day at a time. It is 4 months on, 8 months off.

Pay: There is a pay scale that follows type and years of service. In very general terms the day rate is $500-$1000 +hourly, vacation, RRSP matching etc. The easy way to calculate is over the four months(116 days on duty) one would make $75K starting and $150K top end with many variables dictating this. Extra days are offered up from time to time by seniority and type. Many get involved in spring training and this is paid out in addition to the 130 days. Per-diem varies with agency whereby some accommodations/transportation is provided and others an allowance is provided in leu of. There is the ability to do "double season" within the company depending on your type and seniority so double all the $$$ figures if this is the case. Because of your newly acquired expertise backed by the companies reputation, it is fairly easy to pick up firefighting contract work outside of the Canadian season with varying lengths of commitment and corresponding pay. I would guess anywhere from 10-20% of the pilots take advantage of this year over year.

Canadian Fleet: There is a mix of aircraft either on contract or waiting to get picked up on a call when needed bases or relief for U/S contracted aircraft.
3xRJ85, 13xDH400, 25xAT802, 6xTC690, 8xC208 and operate 4xCL215Ts of the Alberta Government.
They are based in BC(Abbotsford, Penticton, Kamloops, Prince George and Ft St John), Alberta, Yukon and USA(Alaska and Washington State), Australia(QLD, NSW and Victoria).

I would suggest to anyone thinking of this line of work to give it a try. If you are at a job that you aren't going to be at forever anyhow then leave in spring, give firework a try and if by summers end decide it's not for you then the you've made some money(likely much more than in 4 months at your current job) and you can strike it off your list. 1/3 of the pilots have been there 10+years with top 20 having served 20 years.

Good luck

[mmm...bacon]

Newton's little-known 5th law is obviously in play here! "For every expert, there's an equal, and opposite, expert!"

[sio31790]

Hello,

I am looking to get some recent insights with Conair. What kind of profiles are getting hired these days ?

I currently fly the 737 and flew up North for a couple of years. I am wondering if a profile of 3000+ Total Time with 1000+ PIC MPIC turbine time and some jet time could eventually be competitive to apply for a position on the RJ85.
Do you need a mandatory first experience as a Bird Dog pilot somewhere before even considering getting an interview with them ?

Do they take people doing LOAs from their airlines to come work for a season and released them after the season to eventually go back to their airline job and repeat it the next year ?

Very interested to see if it's something that could work.

Cheers

[iflyforpie]

You’ll probably start out as bird dog or right seat on the Q unless you have firefighting experience or bring seaplane and/or tailwheel time to the table for SEAT. My impression is that jet time doesn’t matter unless it’s specialty flying. The only time you’re doing similar flying to an airline/charter/or cargo 737 going from SID to ILS in the flight levels is repositioning.

Positions and bases are awarded on seniority as well as experience. New hires get what’s left… currently in this boat myself. I’m on the Caravan but don’t know where I’m going… but it probably Lac La Biche. 6000TT 5000PIC 4000 MULTI 3500 TURBINE but no jet or any transport category aircraft so who knows?

It definitely isn’t about the type for me and I’m really looking forward to flying a plane I thought I’d missed in my career.

[piperdriver]

It is time for the Canadian firebombing industry to change and pull themselves out of the stone age… every operator in the US now offers rotations and double what Canada pays. One US based operator starts out DEC Captains at 185K USD and 3 weeks On/3 weeks OFF, albeit for a longer season. One European operator even offers 11 day ON/11days OFF for qualified scooper pilots. If companies like Conair want to attract and retain aircrew in the future, they will need to adapt and change the way the job is structured. The old way of doing things, because it was always done that way is not a viable model going forward. The younger generations want a LIFE-WORK balance and if operators don’t adapt, to provide that, then they will find themselves without qualified aircrew. The time of the dinosaurs in Canadian aviation is soon to be a thing of the past. The world evolves and moves on. Conair still has some dinosaurs left in the seniority system and at the management table. Barry Marsden once told me that to secure aircrew in the future he might have to select future pilots and send them for their basic license and training and bond them for a decade just to fill seats. That is not the answer, the answer is to adapt the job so that it provides a lifestyle that is sustainable over a career - by providing rotations that allow an individual to have a LIFE-WORK balance. The dinosaurs sacrificed their marriages, summers and lives - why should the next generation?

The US operator that pays 185k USD, would that be Bridger Aerospace?

[ChrisB]

How hard would the 10 on 4 off like the OMNR be?

[rigpiggy]

Was looking for some contract crew for the winter. Talked to the guys in Montana. Nope they pay them year round to keep them in the lineup...... Most companies in the states are actually looking at there people as a resource to manage, not just exploit and dump in the garbage

[iflyforpie]

Was looking for some contract crew for the winter. Talked to the guys in Montana. Nope they pay them year round to keep them in the lineup...... Most companies in the states are actually looking at there people as a resource to manage, not just exploit and dump in the garbage

They pay you, but they own you.

Red-till-dead, endless seasons, and exports. The dollars to bullshit ratio simply isn’t there which is why lots of people here who are qualified to go to Bridger, Cal Fire, etc don’t go there.

[digits_]

Was looking for some contract crew for the winter. Talked to the guys in Montana. Nope they pay them year round to keep them in the lineup...... Most companies in the states are actually looking at there people as a resource to manage, not just exploit and dump in the garbage

They pay you, but they own you.

Red-till-dead, endless seasons, and exports. The dollars to bullshit ratio simply isn’t there which is why lots of people here who are qualified to go to Bridger, Cal Fire, etc don’t go there.

What do you mean? It was my understanding the US fire programs pay you year round for 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. That's a schedule a lot of Canadian pilots have in other pilot jobs, for probably half the salary the US fire programs offer you.

[TeePeeCreeper]

It is time for the Canadian firebombing industry to change and pull themselves out of the stone age… every operator in the US now offers rotations and double what Canada pays. One US based operator starts out DEC Captains at 185K USD and 3 weeks On/3 weeks OFF, albeit for a longer season. One European operator even offers 11 day ON/11days OFF for qualified scooper pilots. If companies like Conair want to attract and retain aircrew in the future, they will need to adapt and change the way the job is structured. The old way of doing things, because it was always done that way is not a viable model going forward. The younger generations want a LIFE-WORK balance and if operators don’t adapt, to provide that, then they will find themselves without qualified aircrew. The time of the dinosaurs in Canadian aviation is soon to be a thing of the past. The world evolves and moves on. Conair still has some dinosaurs left in the seniority system and at the management table. Barry Marsden once told me that to secure aircrew in the future he might have to select future pilots and send them for their basic license and training and bond them for a decade just to fill seats. That is not the answer, the answer is to adapt the job so that it provides a lifestyle that is sustainable over a career - by providing rotations that allow an individual to have a LIFE-WORK balance. The dinosaurs sacrificed their marriages, summers and lives - why should the next generation?

The US operator that pays 185k USD, would that be Bridger Aerospace?

Yep. Must be nice!

TPC

[Daniel Cooper]

How do you even keep doing that job as a dinosaur? Don't they fly full duty days with dozens of drops in terrible turbulence? I don't think I would want to do that when I'm old.

[skyhighh]

Any news on what Conair is like nowadays for pilots?
Schedule, pay, base, benefits? Overall moral?
Would someone with thousands of hours on a Q400 (and above 5K total) be able to go straight on it? Or would he require to go on the birddogs first? Also, if zero hours on amphib but willing to get the rating, are they any hopes to internally eventually “upgrade” to the amphib at some point?

Thanks.

[iflyforpie]

Schedule? 130 day contract unless you got a 100 day (less common). Two stretches of 7 days off to deal with 3/30 and 5/42. Normal shift 10-22 but can be adjusted because when things are burning.. Alerts come out day before. Blue is like reserve. Yellow is on base but depending how far you are you can stay at accommodations after DIing plane. Red is on base ready to go.

Pay? Abysmal, but expect it to go up. Contract’s up this year.

Base? All over. BC, AB, YT, AK, and AUS. Your base will depend on equipment and seniority. There’s also a roster of spare pilots. Base changes are common so expect to be away from your home base for a month and you’ll be fine.

Benefits? Pretty standard health and dental RRSP matching etc. No travel bennies.. but lots of time off means you can find deals instead. Benefits aren’t paid offseason first few years (I have other benefits so I don’t bother).

Morale? Wrong time of year to answer that. Ask me next spring. It really depends on the individual’s constitution. If you’re a miserable person and don’t like change or unpredictability or you have a home life that requires constant attention or get into the politics of company or competition or customer… then you’ll probably have poor morale. Most here are pretty easy going, it could always be better but it’s pretty good, lifers at this company. I’m going back next year.

Q400? Don’t know. Heavy tanker FO has been an entry level position in the past but this year was the first year it completely replaced the Convair so there were a lot of new captains to train up and internal movement for FOs. I’d expect FO positions to open up next year or year after. Expect to learn how to fly the Q all over again based on what we do with it.. but your knowledge will be invaluable because skills atrophy only flying a couple hundred hours a year with winters off.

The Fireboss is not a plane to learn on. It’s a plane to come to with a lot of experience.. and then find out how much you don’t know about flying. That’s been my impression of it from other pilots.

[skyhighh]

Thank you for all the intel, that’s pretty valuable.
I guess I’ll wait to see what this new contract brings but I’ll definitely keep it in the back of my mind. I fully expect it to be busy during the summer. Fires don’t care about your schedule so it’s 100% understandable.
I appreciate the long response. I’ll probably stop by Abbotsford next time I get some time off in YVR.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Used to be that Conair had a stack of resumes a foot high for 2 or 3 openings a season, now they seem to scrambling for crews every season.

The lifestyle is tough but the flying is the coolest you will ever do outside of the military.

[Dhc6to8]

Just go into the interview knowing that civilian “off the street” hires start from square one in terms of salary and matching RRSP etc. We found out mid season some years back that a group of former Canadian Forces (CF) pilots who were hired in the same year were brought in several salary levels above entry and were put in the 7% matching RRSP level. To get to the 7% level you need to be at the company for years. We were really pissed at this as we were civilian pilots and some had a lot of low level time in the logbook.
Upper management used terms such as “we are a seniority based operation” etc. to excuse the lack of negotiation at hiring. I am not bashing the CF guys, they are great people with outstanding skills. Just know that the playing field is not level between the two hiring pools. To use the language of management speak: “we had seen something that could not be unseen”. The union was not able to do anything about the hiring discrepancy. It is what it is. Just go in with your eyes open. It is a great company to work for, and as others have said before, it is some of the best aviation Canada has to offer. The biggest selling point is the people, there are some really great people at Conair.
6to8

[bigredone]

Or....you get hired and see for yourself. Crazy I know! If anyone is looking to leave their current situation then why not take 4 month and give Conair a try and if it's not for you then you are ahead on pay(assuming you currently make less than $15k/month which is base year 1 pay) and on to your next gig. Keep in mind though that getting hired isn't all that easy as with most operations they are hiring more for your future role than the entry level position. That meaning you have to have the bulk of what's required experience wise, less fire specific experience, as at 200 hrs/year it's a long road otherwise.
If you do have the following, historically about average for hiring, then you may get an interview:

3-5000TT
1000 MPIC
500 float/T-Whell
Some exposure to lager(705) Aircraft