New Payscale?

[fai_saudagar]

After the new contract at WJ and raise at Porter. Any chance of pay scale going up at FLAIR?

[Arnie Pye]

And why would they offer this? They're hoping to just hire everyone on the chance of a free trip to Australia.

[CaptDukeNukem]

How long of a term is the new contract that was signed at Flair? I expect no pay increases will be coming until the end of that term. Flair pilots agreed to it and therefor seem to be stuck with it. It is very rare for companies just to throw more money out there. Porter is doing it because they know what they need to do to get this project off the ground.

[tbaylx]

How long of a term is the new contract that was signed at Flair? I expect no pay increases will be coming until the end of that term. Flair pilots agreed to it and therefor seem to be stuck with it. It is very rare for companies just to throw more money out there. Porter is doing it because they know what they need to do to get this project off the ground.

3 years and it expires in 2025. That will allow Air Canada to finish their contract prior to Flair beginning negotiations on their next CBA.

[MAX8 Driver]

How long of a term is the new contract that was signed at Flair? I expect no pay increases will be coming until the end of that term. Flair pilots agreed to it and therefor seem to be stuck with it. It is very rare for companies just to throw more money out there. Porter is doing it because they know what they need to do to get this project off the ground.

3 years and it expires in 2025. That will allow Air Canada to finish their contract prior to Flair beginning negotiations on their next CBA.

Porter revisited pay twice in six months. Are you embarrassed or delusional about the current market? Flair and the pay $145k scheme doesn’t mean much.

[tbaylx]

How long of a term is the new contract that was signed at Flair? I expect no pay increases will be coming until the end of that term. Flair pilots agreed to it and therefor seem to be stuck with it. It is very rare for companies just to throw more money out there. Porter is doing it because they know what they need to do to get this project off the ground.

3 years and it expires in 2025. That will allow Air Canada to finish their contract prior to Flair beginning negotiations on their next CBA.

Porter revisited pay twice in six months. Are you embarrassed or delusional about the current market? Flair and the pay $145k scheme doesn’t mean much.

Porter doesn't have a CBA and a union. Neither embarrassed nor delusional. Our pay will naturally fall slightly behind as other airlines negotiate new contracts until our next CBA

[the_new_guy]

Tbaylx, while I personally appreciate your willingness to interact for better or worse (when insults are thrown because we're all very professional hiding behind our keyboards) here on this forum, and you taking the time to shine a light on some details that are sometimes overlooked by others, I have to point out that "will naturally fall slightly behind" is quite an understatement.

Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.

Westjet rate for Captain year 1 stands at 36% higher than ours, while their last year rate is 30% higher than ours.

The best bet out there is AC will go for about 10% (or more) higher than the 737 rates at westjet, and basically go from there to re-evaluate the rest of the fleet's rates.

That's just hourly rates. There's a lot from our current contract that is just not competitive anymore, or never was.

I'd like to see Flair become an employer of choice and a career destination, but we have to do better.

[tbaylx]

Tbaylx, while I personally appreciate your willingness to interact for better or worse (when insults are thrown because we're all very professional hiding behind our keyboards) here on this forum, and you taking the time to shine a light on some details that are sometimes overlooked by others, I have to point out that "will naturally fall slightly behind" is quite an understatement.

Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.

Westjet rate for Captain year 1 stands at 36% higher than ours, while their last year rate is 30% higher than ours.

The best bet out there is AC will go for about 10% (or more) higher than the 737 rates at westjet, and basically go from there to re-evaluate the rest of the fleet's rates.

That's just hourly rates. There's a lot from our current contract that is just not competitive anymore, or never was.

I'd like to see Flair become an employer of choice and a career destination, but we have to do better.

I would too. 6 months ago our contract was fairly competitive on the captain side and FO years 1-2 . Now it isn't. Time will tell if the CBA needs to be opened up before 2025. That's well above my pay grade. I can assure you that everyone is aware of who pays what in the industry and where we fit in. I would think we'd at least want to see AC's new rates before making any decisions.

[the_new_guy]

Tbaylx, while I personally appreciate your willingness to interact for better or worse (when insults are thrown because we're all very professional hiding behind our keyboards) here on this forum, and you taking the time to shine a light on some details that are sometimes overlooked by others, I have to point out that "will naturally fall slightly behind" is quite an understatement.

Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.

Westjet rate for Captain year 1 stands at 36% higher than ours, while their last year rate is 30% higher than ours.

The best bet out there is AC will go for about 10% (or more) higher than the 737 rates at westjet, and basically go from there to re-evaluate the rest of the fleet's rates.

That's just hourly rates. There's a lot from our current contract that is just not competitive anymore, or never was.

I'd like to see Flair become an employer of choice and a career destination, but we have to do better.

I would too. 6 months ago our contract was fairly competitive on the captain side and FO years 1-2 . Now it isn't. Time will tell if the CBA needs to be opened up before 2025. That's well above my pay grade. I can assure you that everyone is aware of who pays what in the industry and where we fit in. I would think we'd at least want to see AC's new rates before making any decisions.

Fair enough. March is right around the corner, and that's the latest date I heard from AC's MEC as they're aiming for March break to get something done or strike. I think we can wait and see what they come up with.

[co-joe]

...
Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.
...

Don't forget that hourly wages don't tell the whole story, Flair has the highest minimum monthly guarantee in Canada at 85 hours, which got a lot of negative feedback on here, but now having worked 8 months on this CBA, for me at least it hasn't equated to more work overall. In fact for at least 5 of those 8 months, I got paid for 85 despite working sometimes considerably less, and only in the busy summer months, did I work more than 85 hours, which I then got paid OT for.

Anyway, though Porter has a 29% higher hourly wage, the pay is only 18% higher with the MMG being lower. It's a decent bump, but it's backed by a handshake, not a contract, a fact that the pilots are rumoured to be working on . Despite the fact that Lynx beats us by 1% hourly, Flair pays 11% more per month because of the higher MMG. And Lynx pilots want that in writing, that's why they're working with ALPA.

We are losing people, but likely nowhere near enough to trigger a pay raise yet. My guess, is that if AC eliminates or reduces flat pay, we will start to lose a lot more FOs and that could trigger a raise. Hoping for both.

[flying4dollars]

...
Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.
...

Don't forget that hourly wages don't tell the whole story, Flair has the highest minimum monthly guarantee in Canada at 85 hours, which got a lot of negative feedback on here, but now having worked 8 months on this CBA, for me at least it hasn't equated to more work overall. In fact for at least 5 of those 8 months, I got paid for 85 despite working sometimes considerably less, and only in the busy summer months, did I work more than 85 hours, which I then got paid OT for.

Anyway, though Porter has a 29% higher hourly wage, the pay is only 18% higher with the MMG being lower. It's a decent bump, but it's backed by a handshake, not a contract, a fact that the pilots are rumoured to be working on . Despite the fact that Lynx beats us by 1% hourly, Flair pays 11% more per month because of the higher MMG. And Lynx pilots want that in writing, that's why they're working with ALPA.

We are losing people, but likely nowhere near enough to trigger a pay raise yet. My guess, is that if AC eliminates or reduces flat pay, we will start to lose a lot more FOs and that could trigger a raise. Hoping for both.

And more importantly, captains

[the_new_guy]

...
Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.
...

Don't forget that hourly wages don't tell the whole story, Flair has the highest minimum monthly guarantee in Canada at 85 hours, which got a lot of negative feedback on here, but now having worked 8 months on this CBA, for me at least it hasn't equated to more work overall. In fact for at least 5 of those 8 months, I got paid for 85 despite working sometimes considerably less, and only in the busy summer months, did I work more than 85 hours, which I then got paid OT for.

Anyway, though Porter has a 29% higher hourly wage, the pay is only 18% higher with the MMG being lower. It's a decent bump, but it's backed by a handshake, not a contract, a fact that the pilots are rumoured to be working on . Despite the fact that Lynx beats us by 1% hourly, Flair pays 11% more per month because of the higher MMG. And Lynx pilots want that in writing, that's why they're working with ALPA.

We are losing people, but likely nowhere near enough to trigger a pay raise yet. My guess, is that if AC eliminates or reduces flat pay, we will start to lose a lot more FOs and that could trigger a raise. Hoping for both.

High mmg means something for sure. But I like to compare apples to apples.

You're right, porter doesn't have a union contract. Right now it seems that this is actually working in their favor. Could go the other way too, I agree.

But to be frank, I don't care one bit about a higher mmg. I'd much rather have 75 mmg instead of 85, but being paid a decent amount for those hours. It opens you up to more overtime if you so choose, it also means you're likely to work less days in a given month, which makes a difference for anyone who's not top 20% seniority.

Porter isn't perfect, but they have us beat as of now "contract" wise. Let's at least recognize it.

Westjet has us beat all around with their new contract.

Transat captains also make more, working less.

AC obviously have us beat, if they could just get out of their own way with that flat pay on four years that would go a long way in advancing the marketplace in Canada.

I really enjoy Flair as a place to work and make a living. But I would like to see a time when we admit we're not competitive, and I would say we never have been with our current contract. If we're serious about being a career airline, we have to adjust. Or we can just train guys, and have them go to AC. We keep saying we're going to have 50 some planes in a couple of years, how are we even going to get close to that with less than 400 pilots and a few cadets.

[Gameon]

...
Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.
...

Don't forget that hourly wages don't tell the whole story, Flair has the highest minimum monthly guarantee in Canada at 85 hours, which got a lot of negative feedback on here, but now having worked 8 months on this CBA, for me at least it hasn't equated to more work overall. In fact for at least 5 of those 8 months, I got paid for 85 despite working sometimes considerably less, and only in the busy summer months, did I work more than 85 hours, which I then got paid OT for.

Anyway, though Porter has a 29% higher hourly wage, the pay is only 18% higher with the MMG being lower. It's a decent bump, but it's backed by a handshake, not a contract, a fact that the pilots are rumoured to be working on . Despite the fact that Lynx beats us by 1% hourly, Flair pays 11% more per month because of the higher MMG. And Lynx pilots want that in writing, that's why they're working with ALPA.

We are losing people, but likely nowhere near enough to trigger a pay raise yet. My guess, is that if AC eliminates or reduces flat pay, we will start to lose a lot more FOs and that could trigger a raise. Hoping for both.

Hourly wage doesn't tell the whole story is true. The total package needs to be calculated and with about a 3% pension for the vast majority its simply not close to being enough. The MMG of 85 doesn't seem to bother most pilots. Being an "airline of choice" however is certainly not happening. The rate of resignation is alarmingly high and the upper management need to address this at some point sooner than later. To even consider expanding again, the pay and conditions will have to rise and significantly. I would think a pay raise mid contract might need to happen. Who knows how this plays but I see Flair pay about 30% light for both capt and fo's. The contract last year was not out of line based upon the conditions at the time but things are changing rapidly. Stephen Jones even said it himself on a business news channel. In the meantime, Flair will continue to lose pilots...

[tbaylx]

...
Starting with porter with year 1 Captain rates of 190$, that works out to 29% higher rates than ours. Year 12 Porter's rate is 18.5% better than ours. Now we must also keep in mind that porter essentially operates a big regional airline in the e2, or a small airliner with basically ~40% less capacity than our max 8.
...

Don't forget that hourly wages don't tell the whole story, Flair has the highest minimum monthly guarantee in Canada at 85 hours, which got a lot of negative feedback on here, but now having worked 8 months on this CBA, for me at least it hasn't equated to more work overall. In fact for at least 5 of those 8 months, I got paid for 85 despite working sometimes considerably less, and only in the busy summer months, did I work more than 85 hours, which I then got paid OT for.

Anyway, though Porter has a 29% higher hourly wage, the pay is only 18% higher with the MMG being lower. It's a decent bump, but it's backed by a handshake, not a contract, a fact that the pilots are rumoured to be working on . Despite the fact that Lynx beats us by 1% hourly, Flair pays 11% more per month because of the higher MMG. And Lynx pilots want that in writing, that's why they're working with ALPA.

We are losing people, but likely nowhere near enough to trigger a pay raise yet. My guess, is that if AC eliminates or reduces flat pay, we will start to lose a lot more FOs and that could trigger a raise. Hoping for both.

Hourly wage doesn't tell the whole story is true. The total package needs to be calculated and with about a 3% pension for the vast majority its simply not close to being enough. The MMG of 85 doesn't seem to bother most pilots. Being an "airline of choice" however is certainly not happening. The rate of resignation is alarmingly high and the upper management need to address this at some point sooner than later. To even consider expanding again, the pay and conditions will have to rise and significantly. I would think a pay raise mid contract might need to happen. Who knows how this plays but I see Flair pay about 30% light for both capt and fo's. The contract last year was not out of line based upon the conditions at the time but things are changing rapidly. Stephen Jones even said it himself on a business news channel. In the meantime, Flair will continue to lose pilots...

While your points have merit and we are losing some pilots (primarily to AC, although recently some to Proter) the resignation rate is considerably lower than last year. We are able to keep up with the attrition without issue at this point.

[flyingpilot]

Any updates for tentative ground school dates?
thanks

[FlyGiep]

How are you keeping up without hiring ???

[CaptDukeNukem]

How are you keeping up without hiring ???

Robots, obviously.

[cdnavater]

How are you keeping up without hiring ???

Robots, obviously.

In all seriousness, they are shrinking, stagnating really, it doesn’t appear they’ve replaced any of the more recent departures. Could be wrong though because I have no access to the seniority list.

[tbaylx]

How are you keeping up without hiring ???

Robots, obviously.

Simple, we hired for the spring aircraft and lost 4 that we didn't anticipate. So we were a bit overstaffed. We'll be running course this fall sometime.

[co-joe]

...
But to be frank, I don't care one bit about a higher mmg. I'd much rather have 75 mmg instead of 85, but being paid a decent amount for those hours. It opens you up to more overtime if you so choose, it also means you're likely to work less days in a given month, which makes a difference for anyone who's not top 20% seniority.

...

The higher MMG also benefits people in training who aren't flying at all. Lots of US carriers by comparison have MMG's around 60 hours during training, Flair pays 85 hours whether you are flying a full line or not. It also benefits the bottom end of seniority, most of whom are on reserve, when 18 days x 4 hour min credit is only 72 hours, but you get paid for 85. Even the people doing 4 leg days, lots of which is min credit are getting paid for more hours than they work pretty consistently.

The other changes to the CBA are a lot more responsible for the loss of OT this year over last. I really miss the "open time" flying feature in NOC, the company says it didn't protect all the CARs and allowed some violations but I used the poop out of it last year and it never allowed me a violation. I believe the issue was the OT hoars were able to timex by the end of November and take all of December off, and the company couldn't make up the staffing shortfall.

Whatever the case, I agree with the rest of your assessments, Flair will have to step up pay, benefits (like the pension), and working conditions if we are to grow, and things like years of service pay when switching seats will become well worth fighting for.

[the_new_guy]

...
But to be frank, I don't care one bit about a higher mmg. I'd much rather have 75 mmg instead of 85, but being paid a decent amount for those hours. It opens you up to more overtime if you so choose, it also means you're likely to work less days in a given month, which makes a difference for anyone who's not top 20% seniority.

...

The higher MMG also benefits people in training who aren't flying at all. Lots of US carriers by comparison have MMG's around 60 hours during training, Flair pays 85 hours whether you are flying a full line or not. It also benefits the bottom end of seniority, most of whom are on reserve, when 18 days x 4 hour min credit is only 72 hours, but you get paid for 85. Even the people doing 4 leg days, lots of which is min credit are getting paid for more hours than they work pretty consistently.

The other changes to the CBA are a lot more responsible for the loss of OT this year over last. I really miss the "open time" flying feature in NOC, the company says it didn't protect all the CARs and allowed some violations but I used the poop out of it last year and it never allowed me a violation. I believe the issue was the OT hoars were able to timex by the end of November and take all of December off, and the company couldn't make up the staffing shortfall.

Whatever the case, I agree with the rest of your assessments, Flair will have to step up pay, benefits (like the pension), and working conditions if we are to grow, and things like years of service pay when switching seats will become well worth fighting for.

I get where you're coming from, I believe I can make my argument clearer.

Take year 1 Captain

Flair: 147$/h
Porter: 190$/h

At 85 mmg we're currently looking at 12.5k monthly, where as if we were on the same level as porter hourly wage wise(could be westjet or AC but let's say porter) and "only" had 75 mmg, that would work out to 14.25k monthly.

Junior pilots would still work the same number of days every month, but would make more. Training pilots working the sim or the line would also look at higher numbers working the same number of days or just about.

And I feel like I can't stress this enough, this is comparing a 737 payscale to what is essentially a big regional carrier with 130 pax.

We can agree to disagree I'm not one to pick a fight over a forum, but that is my point about the mmg.

Otherwise like I said, the rest of the benefits are also on the down side when comparing but you also acknowledge it so that's something we agree on!

Safe flying

[flyinhigh]

Or to make it apples to apples;

Porter @ $190/hr
75 hr * $190 = $14,250
85 hr * $190 = $16,150

Flair @ &147/hr
75 * $147 = $11,025
85 * $147= $12,495

Doesn’t matter how you justify your mmg to make the salary, your sit quite abit lower. Additionally, no one at Porter is 75 hrs, but gawd I wish I was.

[Apestogetherstrong]

How are you keeping up without hiring ???

Robots, obviously.

Simple, we hired for the spring aircraft and lost 4 that we didn't anticipate. So we were a bit overstaffed. We'll be running course this fall sometime.

So rather than paying your pilots better than Porter or even just the same as Porter, Flair’s management would start more courses? Steven Jones in an interview criticized Westjet and said you need to pay your pilots better. What is he doing about the resignations? Losing pilots to Porter must hurt a lot.

[Apestogetherstrong]

How are you keeping up without hiring ???

Robots, obviously.

Simple, we hired for the spring aircraft and lost 4 that we didn't anticipate. So we were a bit overstaffed. We'll be running course this fall sometime.

So rather than paying your pilots better than Porter or even just the same as Porter, Flair’s management would start more courses? Steven Jones in an interview criticized Westjet and said you need to pay your pilots better. What is he doing about the resignations? Losing pilots to Porter must hurt a lot.

[capt_Z]

What's the current payscale at Flair?