Negotiations

[mmm...bacon]

^Are you suggesting that ATCOs are unskilled or overpaid? Or ami reading your comments incorrectly?

[QKZXKV]

^Are you suggesting that ATCOs are unskilled or overpaid? Or ami reading your comments incorrectly?

Not sure how you conclude that...

[NovaBoy]

^Are you suggesting that ATCOs are unskilled or overpaid? Or ami reading your comments incorrectly?

Pretty sure they are referring to jobs within the airlines, and not ATC. You folks are far from unskilled and overpaid.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

This is if you believe that ALL license holders are active and haven’t quit flying for profit.

I myself (ATPL) left Sunwing and flying as a career after being laid off during the pandemic, and I know others who have as well (including some who even made it to AC/WJ).

Actually being home every night made me realize what I was missing, and so I made the decision to leave flying and become a controller. I won't make as much money, but the lifestyle is top notch. Best decision I've ever made.

Congratulations. Controller is no easy feat to reach.

Thanks. It was a risky move, but it's paid off. It's funny how pilot to ATC is a semi-common occurrence, but I don't know anyone who has left ATC to become an airline pilot.

[Stu Pidasso]

^Are you suggesting that ATCOs are unskilled or overpaid? Or ami reading your comments incorrectly?

Reading Comprehension (may) not be a requirement for ATC. Although, I would be happy to debate your overtime and failure rate if you like?

[ShillBill]

Does anyone know anyone else that has made the switch to ATC?

[cdnavater]

Just met another Jazz pilot who is eligible for the upgrade and scheduled for the fall who is just waiting to hear from WJ for a course date(in the pool). Apparently this was not enough for him to stay and this pilots commute is from an eastern airport with notoriously difficult availability for commuters, so not a YYC or YVR pilot.
Who could’ve predicted that, it’s not enough but will they revisit! Guess we’ll know by December or January.

[rudder]

Just met another Jazz pilot who is eligible for the upgrade and scheduled for the fall who is just waiting to hear from WJ for a course date(in the pool). Apparently this was not enough for him to stay and this pilots commute is from an eastern airport with notoriously difficult availability for commuters, so not a YYC or YVR pilot.
Who could’ve predicted that, it’s not enough but will they revisit! Guess we’ll know by December or January.

For most Jazz pilots with a foot out the door already (applications elsewhere) this MOS wasn’t nearly enough.

For those that had not started looking elsewhere yet, maybe enough to stay complacent (that isn’t a great strategy given the trajectory of the Jazz operations - fleet/block hours).

New-hire FO’s get to consider moving out of parents basement to communal living (1-3 roommates) in Canada’s most expensive cities.

There is a competition happening for pilots. It is happening everywhere. It will eventually be global. The employer can chose to be a competitor or a spectator.

[cdnavater]

Truedude,
I get it, you’re angry but Jazz has about 600ish pilots who aren’t or can’t leave except for when they retire, they could staff 80 aircraft with that and the bottom 600 who are to inexperienced to go elsewhere.
As of March 2023 there are 600 pilots hired before 2015, 60 less than Jan 2022 list, an estimated 100 of them not on the roster for disability or trainer, so with some hired after 2015 who maybe don’t want to leave and start over or no offers we could fill the left seat for 80 fins, the rest will be a constant state of hire, train, rinse repeat. The hiring will stabilize if you’re hiring those who are not able to move, AC pays for the training
Jazz disappearing is low on the probability scale, shrinking is more in the 98% range, this is going to happen in the next 2 months, there will be an announcement shortly that the CPA has been renegotiated with a more permanent CPA for PAL.
Maybe Jazz will be an all 76 seat jet fleet and PAL doing the q flying with the transfer taking a one to one fleet replacement type of deal, as we take on a new jet, transfer a q to them.

First I think you need to take a look at how many of those 600 pilots are on a med leave. Then check how many have 20 or so years left. There are not 600 pilots that will stay at a Jazz that is just dying.

There is no advantage for me to leave at the moment. But if that is the plan for Jazz, I'm gone. There aren't many left after that.

So no, there won't be a Jazz left. And I'm not mad. I'm indifferent as someone with options usually is. If the CPA is renegotiate with no uplift, I'm gone. And I know a lot of pre 2015 people that will be going too.

The thing is, before the shortage of experienced pilots came to fruition, I was happy was my pay progression and top pay.
Even without massive increases not much will change for me, sure inflation has chipped away at my discretionary money but I live a comfortable life and have a great home, all my toys and some savings. I also have a pension that all of my friends envy, so I think you might be overestimating how many pre 2015 hires will give up the pension and top pay scale to start over.
It’s very easy to say,”I’m gone” a completely different thing to pull the trigger.
I actually ran the numbers with the new WJ contract out of curiosity, it would take five years to get back to where I am today and another three before I could start pulling ahead, leaving a few years before I retire. Probably never make left seat there, if you’re close to 50, that’s the reality! That’s assuming no increase at all for us, which if I remember correctly the long term contract we signed had a reopening where pay is subject to review and arbitration based on inflation. That should at the very least get us an increase to cover the inflation difference.

Thought I would revisit this and see how it stacked up.
The December seniority list has just over 510 who were hired pre January 2015, since last year the number is down less than 100. Between retirement and the ERP program it’s hard to say how many were part of that reduction but the bottom line, as I predicted you wouldn’t see too many of the DB pension group jumping ship, maybe 50.
The other interesting things is, there is another 370 who’ve been hired between 2015 and March 2020 that are still here, not sure how that works with the AC flow. You would think they would be the first out when AC started taking again, so are they intentionally not going or were rejected or mostly low time and not yet eligible for the AC flow. Then of course no hiring until May 2022.
Latest bid had 476 Captains, planning after the bid 556 Captains, which is for all intents and purposes what they think we need for the forecast summer flying, 80 more Captains than we currently have, doable, perhaps.
I’m sure there are discussions with AC on the CPA fleet past 2025 and the question of whether or not we can staff 80ish fins with the current bottom 500 and continually hire 20 new FOs every 3 weeks has been answered, my thought is yes.

[rudder]

First I think you need to take a look at how many of those 600 pilots are on a med leave. Then check how many have 20 or so years left. There are not 600 pilots that will stay at a Jazz that is just dying.

There is no advantage for me to leave at the moment. But if that is the plan for Jazz, I'm gone. There aren't many left after that.

So no, there won't be a Jazz left. And I'm not mad. I'm indifferent as someone with options usually is. If the CPA is renegotiate with no uplift, I'm gone. And I know a lot of pre 2015 people that will be going too.

The thing is, before the shortage of experienced pilots came to fruition, I was happy was my pay progression and top pay.
Even without massive increases not much will change for me, sure inflation has chipped away at my discretionary money but I live a comfortable life and have a great home, all my toys and some savings. I also have a pension that all of my friends envy, so I think you might be overestimating how many pre 2015 hires will give up the pension and top pay scale to start over.
It’s very easy to say,”I’m gone” a completely different thing to pull the trigger.
I actually ran the numbers with the new WJ contract out of curiosity, it would take five years to get back to where I am today and another three before I could start pulling ahead, leaving a few years before I retire. Probably never make left seat there, if you’re close to 50, that’s the reality! That’s assuming no increase at all for us, which if I remember correctly the long term contract we signed had a reopening where pay is subject to review and arbitration based on inflation. That should at the very least get us an increase to cover the inflation difference.

Thought I would revisit this and see how it stacked up.
The December seniority list has just over 510 who were hired pre January 2015, since last year the number is down less than 100. Between retirement and the ERP program it’s hard to say how many were part of that reduction but the bottom line, as I predicted you wouldn’t see too many of the DB pension group jumping ship, maybe 50.
The other interesting things is, there is another 370 who’ve been hired between 2015 and March 2020 that are still here, not sure how that works with the AC flow. You would think they would be the first out when AC started taking again, so are they intentionally not going or were rejected or mostly low time and not yet eligible for the AC flow. Then of course no hiring until May 2022.
Latest bid had 476 Captains, planning after the bid 556 Captains, which is for all intents and purposes what they think we need for the forecast summer flying, 80 more Captains than we currently have, doable, perhaps.
I’m sure there are discussions with AC on the CPA fleet past 2025 and the question of whether or not we can staff 80ish fins with the current bottom 500 and continually hire 20 new FOs every 3 weeks has been answered, my thought is yes.

The pre-2015 CA that departed that were not retirement/ERP were mostly or all ex-SKV E175 CA. So, non-DB pilots.

As for 2015-2020 pilots that are still at Jazz, who knows? Most would meet the AC hiring minimums and would be eligible to flow.

As for the increase in CA positions in Bid 2024-01….. that is simply to cover known attrition. It is not an increase.

80 fully utilized airframes requires approximately 960 line pilots. The only question mark for 2024 is will hiring cover actual attrition. In 2023, it did not.