BEWARE $30,000 BOND FOR 3 YRS

[Apestogetherstrong]

I’m raising awareness. Yr 1 salary in the LOW 60’s. 3 yr BOND $30,000.

[flyinhigh]

Other than them extending it to 3 years, old news. Use to be two years.

[330heavy]

Other than them extending it to 3 years, old news. Use to be two years.

I have my interview coming up with both Flair and Transat. I have 1900 hrs. How long is the pool time at Flair? Kinda confused which way to go. I like Flair cuz its single day pairings. Does being in the pool guarantee that we will be called? Thinking if I get called by Transat first, should I wait in the pool and burn the Transat bridge? What if I dont get called since Flair is sponsoring SA pilots. Confused :s

Of course he/she knew that. Likely bitter didn’t get the job offer at Air Transat. And to clarify, there is no money upfront. It’s just if you leave, you pay a prorated training bond. This is to protect company expenses when you said you’d stay here and agreed for a minimum of 3 yrs. To anyone who wants to come to Air Transat, it’s a great company and crews to work with, the bond will mean nothing as those 3 yrs go by quickly. If you’re here for the type rating to go to AC, then the bond might be an issue for you.

[Yogi21]

Other than them extending it to 3 years, old news. Use to be two years.

I have my interview coming up with both Flair and Transat. I have 1900 hrs. How long is the pool time at Flair? Kinda confused which way to go. I like Flair cuz its single day pairings. Does being in the pool guarantee that we will be called? Thinking if I get called by Transat first, should I wait in the pool and burn the Transat bridge? What if I dont get called since Flair is sponsoring SA pilots. Confused :s

Of course he/she knew that. Likely bitter didn’t get the job offer at Air Transat. And to clarify, there is no money upfront. It’s just if you leave, you pay a prorated training bond. This is to protect company expenses when you said you’d stay here and agreed for a minimum of 3 yrs. To anyone who wants to come to Air Transat, it’s a great company and crews to work with, the bond will mean nothing as those 3 yrs go by quickly. If you’re here for the type rating to go to AC, then the bond might be an issue for you.

How come Sunwing, Porter, Flair, Westjet and Cargojet dont have a bond then?

The real reason is you guys dont want to pay a decent salary and when the contracts get better(WJ and Porter already much better by the way), guys will be stuck with Transat with a shitty salary because they wont be able to leave because or the bond. Thus Transat can save a lot of money keeping guys from leaving until negots are over mid 2025. Smart move by Transat though. I’m just creating awareness so that whoever applies to Transat, understand the 3 YEAR $30,000 BOND. On a side note, dont say Air Transat starting salary is good. It is disgusting.

[TFTMB heavy]

Other than them extending it to 3 years, old news. Use to be two years.

I have my interview coming up with both Flair and Transat. I have 1900 hrs. How long is the pool time at Flair? Kinda confused which way to go. I like Flair cuz its single day pairings. Does being in the pool guarantee that we will be called? Thinking if I get called by Transat first, should I wait in the pool and burn the Transat bridge? What if I dont get called since Flair is sponsoring SA pilots. Confused :s

Of course he/she knew that. Likely bitter didn’t get the job offer at Air Transat. And to clarify, there is no money upfront. It’s just if you leave, you pay a prorated training bond. This is to protect company expenses when you said you’d stay here and agreed for a minimum of 3 yrs. To anyone who wants to come to Air Transat, it’s a great company and crews to work with, the bond will mean nothing as those 3 yrs go by quickly. If you’re here for the type rating to go to AC, then the bond might be an issue for you.

How come Sunwing, Porter, Flair, Westjet and Cargojet dont have a bond then?

The real reason is you guys dont want to pay a decent salary and when the contracts get better(WJ and Porter already much better by the way), guys will be stuck with Transat with a shitty salary because they wont be able to leave because or the bond. Thus Transat can save a lot of money keeping guys from leaving until negots are over mid 2025. Smart move by Transat though. I’m just creating awareness so that whoever applies to Transat, understand the 3 YEAR $30,000 BOND. On a side note, dont say Air Transat starting salary is good. It is disgusting.

The company is upfront about the bond and it’s nothing new. When we extended the CA the starting salary was amongst the highest for FOs.

Most likely the CA will be renegotiated before 2025 as we are getting leapfrogged. Make sure you compare working conditions and not just pay when making the best decision for yourself.

[thepoors]

How come Sunwing, Porter, Flair, Westjet and Cargojet dont have a bond then?

The real reason is you guys dont want to pay a decent salary and when the contracts get better(WJ and Porter already much better by the way), guys will be stuck with Transat with a shitty salary because they wont be able to leave because or the bond. Thus Transat can save a lot of money keeping guys from leaving until negots are over mid 2025. Smart move by Transat though. I’m just creating awareness so that whoever applies to Transat, understand the 3 YEAR $30,000 BOND. On a side note, dont say Air Transat starting salary is good. It is disgusting.

You nailed it. A mainline carrier bonding new hires is downright embarrassing.

These company shills on here defending this have no shame or self respect. They're the same ones calling a 62k salary "good" - if the lifestyle is so amazing and the company is so great, then why do they need a bond to trap people from leaving?.. I'm not following the logic.

[digits_]

if the lifestyle is so amazing and the company is so great, then why do they need a bond to trap people from leaving?.. I'm not following the logic.

They think the company will give the money saved by a bond to the pilot group so other people will get a wage increase...

A 30 000 bond for 3 years is excessive and goes way past the 'saving training costs if you leave sooner'.

To determine a fair value of a bond for initial training, comparing the training cost of an initial training vs a recurrent training would be a good start, while keeping in mind how long the training is valid.
705 ops have 6 month training events, which some stuff happening yearly. Let's be generous and focus on a 1 year period.

First year costs:
Initial training cost:
- initial GS
- initial sim
- line indoc
6 months recurrent training
year 1 salary

Second year costs:
2 x 6 months recurrent training
year 2 salary

Somebody with more inside knowledge could likely put some numbers on this. Does the difference between these costs exceed 30 000?


If initial training is valued at 30 000 by the company, does that mean people who already have passed the initial training, make 30 000 more than those who haven't?

[Inverted2]

The shitty starting salary alone should be enough. As for the 30,000 bond? Don’t like it? Don’t apply.

Plenty of other jobs out there with no training bonds.

[330heavy]

The shitty starting salary alone should be enough. As for the 30,000 bond? Don’t like it? Don’t apply.

Plenty of other jobs out there with no training bonds.

Says the guy at Jazz
A year ago we extended our TA, our narrow body pilots were top paid in Canada. Since then, Flair, WJ, Porter, soon AC will raise above. But guess what, we position ourselves to take advantage of gains done by WJ and AC for the coming 2025, so make of that what you will. We also have a very good lifestyle and flying, which should account for something.

The bond is what it is, and it’s there because some pilots have commitment issues. Would you not go after a contractor you paid to do a job but they bailed half way through? We want pilots who want to be here and for most, once here, they see why it’s a place to stay and the bond doesn’t matter. Those who have issue with it are likely ones that need not apply. The bond accounts for not only training, but also hotel, car rental, per diem as well, do feel free to price around Airbus type ratings. One could also argue AC and flat pay is like paying upfront for that type rating and that pay is lower, but yet you all trip over yourselves to go there no questions asked. I am hopeful AC rectifies the pay, and wish them the best, as their gains will help our gains. But stop expecting US salaries. It isn’t happening, we all can expect 25-30% + and continue building off each other.

Also, yogi21/apetogetherstrong, please try to stick to same user name in a thread, makes your arguments look week.

[Inverted2]

All I’m saying is if you have issues with signing training bonds, don’t apply. There are other options out there.

[thepoors]

The shitty starting salary alone should be enough. As for the 30,000 bond? Don’t like it? Don’t apply.

Plenty of other jobs out there with no training bonds.

Says the guy at Jazz
A year ago we extended our TA, our narrow body pilots were top paid in Canada. Since then, Flair, WJ, Porter, soon AC will raise above. But guess what, we position ourselves to take advantage of gains done by WJ and AC for the coming 2025, so make of that what you will. We also have a very good lifestyle and flying, which should account for something.

The bond is what it is, and it’s there because some pilots have commitment issues. Would you not go after a contractor you paid to do a job but they bailed half way through? We want pilots who want to be here and for most, once here, they see why it’s a place to stay and the bond doesn’t matter. Those who have issue with it are likely ones that need not apply. The bond accounts for not only training, but also hotel, car rental, per diem as well, do feel free to price around Airbus type ratings. One could also argue AC and flat pay is like paying upfront for that type rating and that pay is lower, but yet you all trip over yourselves to go there no questions asked. I am hopeful AC rectifies the pay, and wish them the best, as their gains will help our gains. But stop expecting US salaries. It isn’t happening, we all can expect 25-30% + and continue building off each other.

Also, yogi21/apetogetherstrong, please try to stick to same user name in a thread, makes your arguments look week.

Buddy I'm not at Jazz, don't know where you're pulling that from..

You're "positioning yourselves to take advantage of gains" - wtf does that even mean? That's typical management-speak nonsense. Either you increase pay like Porter did or you don't. You keep touting lifestyle like that justifies your shit pay. And yet you still need a bond to keep people from running to AC as soon as they can. Your backwards mentality is why pilots in this country continue to be walked all over. It shouldn't be a trade-off of pay vs lifestyle. They go hand in hand. Of course you probably don't actually care because you got yours, so @#$! the new guy at your own company trying to scrape by on $3500/mo when rent for a 1bed is $2500.

Even worse is your flawed gradeschool analogies and farcical reasoning to justify this bond. At worst the company has more than recouped the cost of training after 1 year. The whole purpose of this bond (as pointed out by Yogi) is to trap people into this crap contract for as long as possible. Good luck servicing that 1.8b as this economy stagnates...you better hope Justy has some more of those sweet tax payer dollars for another handout.

[dontcallmeshirley]

TS is a career airline. If you're not going there to stay there a minimum of three years, you shouldn't be going.

[Tbayer2021]

Guys, there are plenty of positive aspects about working at Transat, but the bond isn't one of them. Stop with the mental gymnastics to justify it. Cut the bullshit.

[flyinhigh]

Other than them extending it to 3 years, old news. Use to be two years.

I have my interview coming up with both Flair and Transat. I have 1900 hrs. How long is the pool time at Flair? Kinda confused which way to go. I like Flair cuz its single day pairings. Does being in the pool guarantee that we will be called? Thinking if I get called by Transat first, should I wait in the pool and burn the Transat bridge? What if I dont get called since Flair is sponsoring SA pilots. Confused :s

Of course he/she knew that. Likely bitter didn’t get the job offer at Air Transat. And to clarify, there is no money upfront. It’s just if you leave, you pay a prorated training bond. This is to protect company expenses when you said you’d stay here and agreed for a minimum of 3 yrs. To anyone who wants to come to Air Transat, it’s a great company and crews to work with, the bond will mean nothing as those 3 yrs go by quickly. If you’re here for the type rating to go to AC, then the bond might be an issue for you.

Let’s not forget there is writing in the bond (unless it’s changed) that it only applies if you go to what is essentially a competitor. I.e, go back to a King Air, and they likely won’t come after you.

[DanWEC]

Compared to the other airlines mentioned here, such as Flair and Cargojet, Transat is the only solid lifetime career place. (For most people- everyone has a different situation)
The 1st few years' salary are horrible, but they're still higher than AC's. It'll change, but in 5 years you're a high seniority FO, on the verge of upgrading onto a 321 or 330, all while working 12 days a month with excellent destinations.
The reason the bond exists is only to prevent people from going to AC after getting a type rating that costs the company more than the 1st year pay. People don't leave to go anywhere else, and we have constant intake from all the aforementioned airlines as well.
Salaries, which are already higher than AC's NB scale, will be going up substantially to keep up with expected AC gains in less than 2 years. Our management seems to value pilots instead of operating despite them. AC will likely still have higher 30 year earnings at the end because of the 777/787 etc if you have that much time ahead of you.

PS, to the new applicants, is there still a sim eval? Just curious, it was done on the old 310 before, but I can't see how there's availability in any of the new ones.

[Babar350]

Compared to the other airlines mentioned here, such as Flair and Cargojet, Transat is the only solid lifetime career place.
The 1st few years' salary are horrible, but they're still higher than AC's. It'll change, but in 5 years you're a high seniority FO, on the verge of upgrading onto a 321 or 330, all while working 12 days a month with excellent destinations.
The reason the bond exists is only to prevent people from going to AC after getting a type rating that costs the company more than the 1st year pay. People don't leave to go anywhere else, and we have constant intake from all the aforementioned airlines as well.
Salaries, which are already higher than AC's NB scale, will be going up substantially to keep up with expected AC gains in less than 2 years. Our management seems to value pilots instead of operating despite them. AC will likely still have higher 30 year earnings at the end because of the 777/787 etc if you have that much time ahead of you.

PS, to the new applicants, is there still a sim eval? Just curious, it was done on the old 310 before, but I can't see how there's availability in any of the new ones.

I'm curious to see where you see FOs working 12 days a months. in Montreal they have about 12 days off per month. However I agree with the new bid it should give couple more days off in yul and less days off in yyz.
No sim eval as of July, and the minimums dropped to 1500hrs.

[DanWEC]

Compared to the other airlines mentioned here, such as Flair and Cargojet, Transat is the only solid lifetime career place.
The 1st few years' salary are horrible, but they're still higher than AC's. It'll change, but in 5 years you're a high seniority FO, on the verge of upgrading onto a 321 or 330, all while working 12 days a month with excellent destinations.
The reason the bond exists is only to prevent people from going to AC after getting a type rating that costs the company more than the 1st year pay. People don't leave to go anywhere else, and we have constant intake from all the aforementioned airlines as well.
Salaries, which are already higher than AC's NB scale, will be going up substantially to keep up with expected AC gains in less than 2 years. Our management seems to value pilots instead of operating despite them. AC will likely still have higher 30 year earnings at the end because of the 777/787 etc if you have that much time ahead of you.

PS, to the new applicants, is there still a sim eval? Just curious, it was done on the old 310 before, but I can't see how there's availability in any of the new ones.

I'm curious to see where you see FOs working 12 days a months. in Montreal they have about 12 days off per month. However I agree with the new bid it should give couple more days off in yul and less days off in yyz.
No sim eval as of July, and the minimums dropped to 1500hrs.

For Sept I only see a handful of guys doing 16 days, most are about 13. Of course that will drop for Oct and Nov. I've found the annual average is about 12-14 days on. Max in the summer, and winter. Almost nothing in the shoulders.

[digits_]

TS is a career airline. If you're not going there to stay there a minimum of three years, you shouldn't be going.

Usually a career airline means that people *want* to stay there, not that they are bonded and can't afford to leave...

Colleagues who really only want to leave but can't (or don't want to) pay are likely the worst ones to spend a pairing with. Do you really want those at your company?

[TFTMB heavy]

The shitty starting salary alone should be enough. As for the 30,000 bond? Don’t like it? Don’t apply.

Plenty of other jobs out there with no training bonds.

Says the guy at Jazz
A year ago we extended our TA, our narrow body pilots were top paid in Canada. Since then, Flair, WJ, Porter, soon AC will raise above. But guess what, we position ourselves to take advantage of gains done by WJ and AC for the coming 2025, so make of that what you will. We also have a very good lifestyle and flying, which should account for something.

The bond is what it is, and it’s there because some pilots have commitment issues. Would you not go after a contractor you paid to do a job but they bailed half way through? We want pilots who want to be here and for most, once here, they see why it’s a place to stay and the bond doesn’t matter. Those who have issue with it are likely ones that need not apply. The bond accounts for not only training, but also hotel, car rental, per diem as well, do feel free to price around Airbus type ratings. One could also argue AC and flat pay is like paying upfront for that type rating and that pay is lower, but yet you all trip over yourselves to go there no questions asked. I am hopeful AC rectifies the pay, and wish them the best, as their gains will help our gains. But stop expecting US salaries. It isn’t happening, we all can expect 25-30% + and continue building off each other.

Also, yogi21/apetogetherstrong, please try to stick to same user name in a thread, makes your arguments look week.

Buddy I'm not at Jazz, don't know where you're pulling that from..

You're "positioning yourselves to take advantage of gains" - wtf does that even mean? That's typical management-speak nonsense. Either you increase pay like Porter did or you don't. You keep touting lifestyle like that justifies your shit pay. And yet you still need a bond to keep people from running to AC as soon as they can. Your backwards mentality is why pilots in this country continue to be walked all over. It shouldn't be a trade-off of pay vs lifestyle. They go hand in hand. Of course you probably don't actually care because you got yours, so @#$! the new guy at your own company trying to scrape by on $3500/mo when rent for a 1bed is $2500.

Even worse is your flawed gradeschool analogies and farcical reasoning to justify this bond. At worst the company has more than recouped the cost of training after 1 year. The whole purpose of this bond (as pointed out by Yogi) is to trap people into this crap contract for as long as possible. Good luck servicing that 1.8b as this economy stagnates...you better hope Justy has some more of those sweet tax payer dollars for another handout.

Really a poor taste comment.

Nobody at TS likes the bond. But why would a pilot take a job here knowing the pay and conditions and then leave for AC shortly after? Why come to TS and waste our time if you’re waiting for AC? That’s just as disgusting as your comment.

[Dias]

Thank goodness AC called before Transat did. That $30k debt would have hurt while on flat pay. I think pilots have fought and won getting out of training bonds though.

[thepoors]

Says the guy at Jazz
A year ago we extended our TA, our narrow body pilots were top paid in Canada. Since then, Flair, WJ, Porter, soon AC will raise above. But guess what, we position ourselves to take advantage of gains done by WJ and AC for the coming 2025, so make of that what you will. We also have a very good lifestyle and flying, which should account for something.

The bond is what it is, and it’s there because some pilots have commitment issues. Would you not go after a contractor you paid to do a job but they bailed half way through? We want pilots who want to be here and for most, once here, they see why it’s a place to stay and the bond doesn’t matter. Those who have issue with it are likely ones that need not apply. The bond accounts for not only training, but also hotel, car rental, per diem as well, do feel free to price around Airbus type ratings. One could also argue AC and flat pay is like paying upfront for that type rating and that pay is lower, but yet you all trip over yourselves to go there no questions asked. I am hopeful AC rectifies the pay, and wish them the best, as their gains will help our gains. But stop expecting US salaries. It isn’t happening, we all can expect 25-30% + and continue building off each other.

Also, yogi21/apetogetherstrong, please try to stick to same user name in a thread, makes your arguments look week.

Buddy I'm not at Jazz, don't know where you're pulling that from..

You're "positioning yourselves to take advantage of gains" - wtf does that even mean? That's typical management-speak nonsense. Either you increase pay like Porter did or you don't. You keep touting lifestyle like that justifies your shit pay. And yet you still need a bond to keep people from running to AC as soon as they can. Your backwards mentality is why pilots in this country continue to be walked all over. It shouldn't be a trade-off of pay vs lifestyle. They go hand in hand. Of course you probably don't actually care because you got yours, so @#$! the new guy at your own company trying to scrape by on $3500/mo when rent for a 1bed is $2500.

Even worse is your flawed gradeschool analogies and farcical reasoning to justify this bond. At worst the company has more than recouped the cost of training after 1 year. The whole purpose of this bond (as pointed out by Yogi) is to trap people into this crap contract for as long as possible. Good luck servicing that 1.8b as this economy stagnates...you better hope Justy has some more of those sweet tax payer dollars for another handout.

Really a poor taste comment.

Nobody at TS likes the bond. But why would a pilot take a job here knowing the pay and conditions and then leave for AC shortly after? Why come to TS and waste our time if you’re waiting for AC? That’s just as disgusting as your comment.

Fair, but that doesn't change how out of touch your partner 330heavy is.

My point is if you don't want people leaving for AC, instead of bonding them, maybe raise your pay to a level where they won't want to leave. That would be the proactive approach to demonstrate the company actually cares about it's pilots.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Thank goodness AC called before Transat did. That $30k debt would have hurt while on flat pay. I think pilots have fought and won getting out of training bonds though.

You don't feel the bond if you don't leave. They're not taking pay away from you.

[DanWEC]

Thank goodness AC called before Transat did. That $30k debt would have hurt while on flat pay. I think pilots have fought and won getting out of training bonds though.

This is a 100% exemplification of exactly why the bond exists.

People only leave for AC, that's it. Nowhere else. Only in the first few years. And why not? Salary is the same, you don't have any seniority yet, and you have it in your head that big red is the best. Heck I vacillate sometimes myself about going.

But... After a few years at TS, once you're no longer bonded, the pay is going up...you realize what sort of lifestyle and schedule you have, realizing catching up is a decade or more away at AC, people stop leaving altogether.

We had a jr 330 capt leave and promptly tried to come back.

Most people I talk to after a few years are pretty ambivalent about the move. For most, it's now just a job and the grass didn't turn out to be greener. Not worth the seniority hit after a few years. Of course the bases and routes may work better for some folks, but TS can't be a place someone wants to spend a year or two, gets 100k of training, while waiting for the call from AC with no intention of staying right from the interview.

So, the ACitis won't go away, and because of that, the bond has to exist regardless of how we feel about it.

[digits_]

TS can't be a place someone wants to spend a year or two, gets 100k of training, while waiting for the call from AC with no intention of staying.

From a pilot point of view, that's exactly what you should want. The higher the attrition, the more leverage you have to negotiate better conditions for the pilots who are staying. That's why a bond is bad for pilots, both the ones who want to leave, and those who want to stay.

If nobody ever leaves Air Transat, then why would management ever agree to raises and other improvements? You've already demonstrated you won't leave, what other leverage do you have? As an employee, that's your strongest asset: the power to leave. A bond makes that significantly harder. That should not be applauded.

[DanWEC]

This is true.
So, it has always been ac attrition that's driven the salaries up to near parity, but the problem is, AC offers a couple larger airplanes and a higher pay ceiling because of it. There will always be movement for that reason regardless of salary, unless something very fortunate happens with pay at TS.
But to be clear, I'm with you, and totally disagree with it for these reasons as well. Especially since no other major has one. Better to provide than to handcuff.