Can another pilot at Jazz confirm that pilots with no type experience are being hired & upgraded to captain with only a few months on type?
Is there a new upgrade matrix for this?
Is Jazz allowing this?
Any other information? Only a few pilots, or several doing this?
10-15 years back, it would take many years to decade to upgrade captain.
New to the company, new to airline flying, new to large turboprop/jet, new to type & Jazz's allowing automatic flow to captain?
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:03 pm
Really?
Is Jazz operating with captains that have less than 1000 hours on type?
Rather than paying to retain the airline experience, they hire from small northern turboprops & drop them in captains?
That would be bad.
I thought this is common knowledge…
They’ve hired ATPL pilots from 703/4 and be FO for a couple months, then they bid for captain and voila you got a captain with 100 hours of 705 time.
If they switched type then they had 100 hours of 705 time and no time on type.
Yes, if you have an ATPL, and there is a vacancy on the position you want. Which is Toronto and Montreal right now as long as you arnt driving the Embraer. And as long as you can pass the PIC assesment, which is just another ride, then you can upgrade.
Loading... wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:38 pm
Yes, if you have an ATPL, and there is a vacancy on the position you want. Which is Toronto and Montreal right now as long as you arnt driving the Embraer. And as long as you can pass the PIC assesment, which is just another ride, then you can upgrade.
Things have changed that much?
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Loading... wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:38 pm
Yes, if you have an ATPL, and there is a vacancy on the position you want. Which is Toronto and Montreal right now as long as you arnt driving the Embraer. And as long as you can pass the PIC assesment, which is just another ride, then you can upgrade.
Things have changed that much?
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Don’t believe it.
95% of direct entry captains fail. Most people who have an ATPL will go to the right seat first for at least 6 months, learn the company amd procedures, then go left seat.
Loading... wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:38 pm
Yes, if you have an ATPL, and there is a vacancy on the position you want. Which is Toronto and Montreal right now as long as you arnt driving the Embraer. And as long as you can pass the PIC assesment, which is just another ride, then you can upgrade.
Things have changed that much?
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Don’t believe it.
95% of direct entry captains fail. Most people who have an ATPL will go to the right seat first for at least 6 months, learn the company amd procedures, then go left seat.
Jazz has a 95% DEC fail rate? That’s insane. I would severely be looking into the quality of the training if in fact it is this high.
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Don’t believe it.
95% of direct entry captains fail. Most people who have an ATPL will go to the right seat first for at least 6 months, learn the company amd procedures, then go left seat.
Jazz has a 95% DEC fail rate? That’s insane. I would severely be looking into the quality of the training if in fact it is this high.
Maybe it is because most of the people trying to be DEC captains aren't even remotely qualified to do so, and only have an ATPL in most cases. Those with 705 captain time have all passed.
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Don’t believe it.
95% of direct entry captains fail. Most people who have an ATPL will go to the right seat first for at least 6 months, learn the company amd procedures, then go left seat.
Jazz has a 95% DEC fail rate? That’s insane. I would severely be looking into the quality of the training if in fact it is this high.
Quality of candidates.
Experience level.
No grid requirements.
Why would that be surprising? Jazz also has a measurable fail rate on internal upgrade candidates. So it turns out that an ATPL and a seniority number do not guarantee upgrade success.
One of the most important aspects of command is exercising good judgement. Knowing when you are ready for a Part 705 upgrade is an example of exercising judgement.
Loading... wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:12 am
95% of direct entry captains fail. Most people who have an ATPL will go to the right seat first for at least 6 months, learn the company amd procedures, then go left seat.
Jazz has a 95% DEC fail rate? That’s insane. I would severely be looking into the quality of the training if in fact it is this high.
Maybe it is because most of the people trying to be DEC captains aren't even remotely qualified to do so, and only have an ATPL in most cases. Those with 705 captain time have all passed.
Not entirely accurate, I know one DEC who had a few thousand hours on RJ who didn’t pass the command sim.
Jazz doesn’t have a matrix for upgrades, you must pass the PIC session, without any time on type is a high fail rate. Some with 6 months on type as FO still don’t pass on the first attempt.
It’s really been placed on the shoulders of the training department to be the stop gap, we do our best to make sure the pilot in the left seat is capable.
Loading... wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:12 am
95% of direct entry captains fail. Most people who have an ATPL will go to the right seat first for at least 6 months, learn the company amd procedures, then go left seat.
Jazz has a 95% DEC fail rate? That’s insane. I would severely be looking into the quality of the training if in fact it is this high.
Quality of candidates.
Experience level.
No grid requirements.
Why would that be surprising? Jazz also has a measurable fail rate on internal upgrade candidates. So it turns out that an ATPL and a seniority number do not guarantee upgrade success.
One of the most important aspects of command is exercising good judgement. Knowing when you are ready for a Part 705 upgrade is an example of exercising judgement.
Absolutely, if you sit in the right seat for 6 months and then feel you are ready with just barely an ATPL, I believe you are fooling yourself and that is an arrogance that is apparent for some of the candidates.
I’m just saying. At 95% failure rate. Clearly the company has to adapt. Maybe instead of 4 sims, you give 8. Enhanced Line indoc training, two recommends prior to line check, etc.
What used to work clearly doesn’t. What’s worse, wasting 95% of already low staffed ACPs’ time or giving additional training to staff your operation? They gonna get additional training regardless prior to second attempt.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:19 am
Also, how are 95% of candidates getting recommends to even attempt a PPC if they are that bad.
They aren’t, they don’t attempt the PPC if they aren’t successful in the PIC Eval.
They get another try for the PIC and after that depending, they might get another attempt but are told if they fail that they have to wait two years before another try. So, I believe they can choose to go back to the line as FO and try again in six months or possibly having to wait two years. Caveat, I’m not 100% sure on the entire fail process but above is the gist.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:15 am
I’m just saying. At 95% failure rate. Clearly the company has to adapt. Maybe instead of 4 sims, you give 8. Enhanced Line indoc training, two recommends prior to line check, etc.
What used to work clearly doesn’t. What’s worse, wasting 95% of already low staffed ACPs’ time or giving additional training to staff your operation? They gonna get additional training regardless prior to second attempt.
There is much more than 4 sims, I’m not going to get into exactly but it’s more than that. Also, if you are current on type and can’t pass after 4 sims, you’re NOT ready!
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:19 am
Also, how are 95% of candidates getting recommends to even attempt a PPC if they are that bad.
They aren’t, they don’t attempt the PPC if they aren’t successful in the PIC Eval.
They get another try for the PIC and after that depending, they might get another attempt but are told if they fail that they have to wait two years before another try. So, I believe they can choose to go back to the line as FO and try again in six months or possibly having to wait two years. Caveat, I’m not 100% sure on the entire fail process but above is the gist.
Ahh… I was under the impression it was 95% at the PPC. Not at the command course. Roger. I now understand.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:15 am
I’m just saying. At 95% failure rate. Clearly the company has to adapt. Maybe instead of 4 sims, you give 8. Enhanced Line indoc training, two recommends prior to line check, etc.
What used to work clearly doesn’t. What’s worse, wasting 95% of already low staffed ACPs’ time or giving additional training to staff your operation? They gonna get additional training regardless prior to second attempt.
This is a self-inflicted wound.
Attempt to retain sub-par pay. Suffer high attrition rates. Be compelled to hire low experience new-hires. Have unfilled CA positions.
Doubling the training doesn’t fix the underlying problem. Plus - “The standard is the standard”. No bell curve. Either you meet the standard for the upgrade or you do not.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:15 am
I’m just saying. At 95% failure rate. Clearly the company has to adapt. Maybe instead of 4 sims, you give 8. Enhanced Line indoc training, two recommends prior to line check, etc.
What used to work clearly doesn’t. What’s worse, wasting 95% of already low staffed ACPs’ time or giving additional training to staff your operation? They gonna get additional training regardless prior to second attempt.
This is a self-inflicted wound.
Attempt to retain sub-par pay. Suffer high attrition rates. Be compelled to hire low experience new-hires. Have unfilled CA positions.
Doubling the training doesn’t fix the underlying problem. Plus - “The standard is the standard”. No bell curve. Either you meet the standard for the upgrade or you do not.
Absolutely. if the training program that used to be intended for 4000 hour FOs with time on type is still used to “train” captains with 1500 hours, then it’s gonna fail miserably. It needs to be focused on how to get these people able to command an aircraft if jazz wants to survive. Not whether or not these candidates have figured it out on their own.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:15 am
I’m just saying. At 95% failure rate. Clearly the company has to adapt. Maybe instead of 4 sims, you give 8. Enhanced Line indoc training, two recommends prior to line check, etc.
What used to work clearly doesn’t. What’s worse, wasting 95% of already low staffed ACPs’ time or giving additional training to staff your operation? They gonna get additional training regardless prior to second attempt.
This is a self-inflicted wound.
Attempt to retain sub-par pay. Suffer high attrition rates. Be compelled to hire low experience new-hires. Have unfilled CA positions.
Doubling the training doesn’t fix the underlying problem. Plus - “The standard is the standard”. No bell curve. Either you meet the standard for the upgrade or you do not.
Absolutely. if the training program that used to be intended for 4000 hour FOs with time on type is still used to “train” captains with 1500 hours, then it’s gonna fail miserably. It needs to be focused on how to get these people able to command an aircraft if jazz wants to survive. Not whether or not these candidates have figured it out on their own.
No, the standard is the standard. Either you have the ability to pass, or you don't. You don't just bend the program to get people through a PPC so the seat is filled. If that is what it takes for Jazz to survive, then it shouldn't survive. As it is, the sim eval is a shadow of what it once was.
Attempt to retain sub-par pay. Suffer high attrition rates. Be compelled to hire low experience new-hires. Have unfilled CA positions.
Doubling the training doesn’t fix the underlying problem. Plus - “The standard is the standard”. No bell curve. Either you meet the standard for the upgrade or you do not.
Absolutely. if the training program that used to be intended for 4000 hour FOs with time on type is still used to “train” captains with 1500 hours, then it’s gonna fail miserably. It needs to be focused on how to get these people able to command an aircraft if jazz wants to survive. Not whether or not these candidates have figured it out on their own.
No, the standard is the standard. Either you have the ability to pass, or you don't. You don't just bend the program to get people through a PPC so the seat is filled. If that is what it takes for Jazz to survive, then it shouldn't survive. As it is, the sim eval is a shadow of what it once was.
A standard is much different than a training program. I’m not saying dull the standard down. I’m saying up the training.
Absolutely. if the training program that used to be intended for 4000 hour FOs with time on type is still used to “train” captains with 1500 hours, then it’s gonna fail miserably. It needs to be focused on how to get these people able to command an aircraft if jazz wants to survive. Not whether or not these candidates have figured it out on their own.
No, the standard is the standard. Either you have the ability to pass, or you don't. You don't just bend the program to get people through a PPC so the seat is filled. If that is what it takes for Jazz to survive, then it shouldn't survive. As it is, the sim eval is a shadow of what it once was.
A standard is much different than a training program. I’m not saying dull the standard down. I’m saying up the training.
You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.
Loading... wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:38 pm
Yes, if you have an ATPL, and there is a vacancy on the position you want. Which is Toronto and Montreal right now as long as you arnt driving the Embraer. And as long as you can pass the PIC assesment, which is just another ride, then you can upgrade.
Things have changed that much?
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Don’t believe it.
Well I personally know one person that did about 3 months as CRJ FO then upgrades to CRJ CA.
One person did maybe 6 months CRJ FO then CRJ CA
Another did 3 months Q FO then CRJ CA
From reading this and my personal experience. Some people are forgetting last year jazz was hiring guys who were captains at their old companies with a decent pool of personal experience.
I know several of these guys who upgraded between 6 months and year. Good sharp guys who are continually learning.
Loading... wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:38 pm
Yes, if you have an ATPL, and there is a vacancy on the position you want. Which is Toronto and Montreal right now as long as you arnt driving the Embraer. And as long as you can pass the PIC assesment, which is just another ride, then you can upgrade.
Things have changed that much?
Out of high school spend 2 year flight training, & 2 years king air with a fresh ATPL & with no jet or airline experience drop into CRJ captain out of YYZ flying LGA & cross continent?
Don’t believe it.
Well I personally know one person that did about 3 months as CRJ FO then upgrades to CRJ CA.
One person did maybe 6 months CRJ FO then CRJ CA
Another did 3 months Q FO then CRJ CA
They’ve all come from 703/4 and no jet time
Are these 3 - 6 month captains with no airline or jet experience flying with non-ATPL fo, or sub 1000 hr fo?
