Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

[Turboprops]

Are these 3 - 6 month captains with no airline or jet experience flying with non-ATPL fo, or sub 1000 hr fo?

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

[CanadaAir]

Are these 3 - 6 month captains with no airline or jet experience flying with non-ATPL fo, or sub 1000 hr fo?

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

Insane

Has TC had any meetings with Jazz to discuss safety of 3 months on type captains?
Or placing these captains with junior fo?

TC has to be aware this is going on. TC has staff talking with line pilots & auditing training.
What's their perspective?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Are these 3 - 6 month captains with no airline or jet experience flying with non-ATPL fo, or sub 1000 hr fo?

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

What could possibly go wrong

[CanadaAir]

Are these 3 - 6 month captains with no airline or jet experience flying with non-ATPL fo, or sub 1000 hr fo?

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

What could possibly go wrong

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

What could possibly go wrong

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

As much risk as possible. This isn’t new in aviation. It’s always been dollars versus safety from 1903 onwards.

[truedude]

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

What could possibly go wrong

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

What could possibly go wrong

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

Also, all it takes is a rebrand with the same company for people to completely forget.

Tango, Jazz. Let’s call the next one “foxtrot”. Maybe they will sign a contract until 2045.

[Blueontop]

Yup, they could very well be flying with a 250 hour FO that finished line check last night.

What could possibly go wrong

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

If you’re referring to colgan crash it was only one fatality in the house. The father, the rest of the family survived.

[CanadaAir]

You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.

Passing a captain ride & meeting the base TC regulations to be a captain, doesn't mean its safe to be a captain.

It takes years to learn an aircraft well. Especially if you are required to supervise junior FO.
Both the captain & FO can't have little experience on type.

If the FO's junior, & sub ATPL then the captain requires many years of experience on type. Doesn't matter if the captain has an ATPL or 3000 hours on a king air. The captain needs years on type if they are going to work with junior pilots.

If the FO's senior, with an ATPL & years/1000s hr on type, then perhaps a captain with an ATPL & only a year or 1000 hours on type is ok.

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.


Still don't think Jazz would do junior FO with these direct no time on type captains. This can' t be accurate.
An airline run by competent people wouldn't do this.
Colgan didn't even do it

[flyingcanuck]

You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.

Passing a captain ride & meeting the base TC regulations to be a captain, doesn't mean its safe to be a captain.

It takes years to learn an aircraft well. Especially if you are required to supervise junior FO.
Both the captain & FO can't have little experience on type.

If the FO's junior, & sub ATPL then the captain requires many years of experience on type. Doesn't matter if the captain has an ATPL or 3000 hours on a king air. The captain needs years on type if they are going to work with junior pilots.

If the FO's senior, with an ATPL & years/1000s hr on type, then perhaps a captain with an ATPL & only a year or 1000 hours on type is ok.

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.


Still don't think Jazz would do junior FO with these direct no time on type captains. This can' t be accurate.
An airline run by competent people wouldn't do this.
Colgan didn't even do it

Yet it happens all the time.

Q400 FO becomes a junior RJ CA and is stuck with a junior new hire RJ FO and is sent to Sydney in the middle of a blizzard gusting 30 on sometimes minimal rest (continuous duties).

Figure that mental math out

[CanadaAir]

You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.

Passing a captain ride & meeting the base TC regulations to be a captain, doesn't mean its safe to be a captain.

It takes years to learn an aircraft well. Especially if you are required to supervise junior FO.
Both the captain & FO can't have little experience on type.

If the FO's junior, & sub ATPL then the captain requires many years of experience on type. Doesn't matter if the captain has an ATPL or 3000 hours on a king air. The captain needs years on type if they are going to work with junior pilots.

If the FO's senior, with an ATPL & years/1000s hr on type, then perhaps a captain with an ATPL & only a year or 1000 hours on type is ok.

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.


Still don't think Jazz would do junior FO with these direct no time on type captains. This can' t be accurate.
An airline run by competent people wouldn't do this.
Colgan didn't even do it

Yet it happens all the time.

Q400 FO becomes a junior RJ CA and is stuck with a junior new hire RJ FO and is sent to Sydney in the middle of a blizzard gusting 30 on sometimes minimal rest (continuous duties).

Figure that mental math out

That didn't happen often years back.
The FO would be with Jazz & flying on the jet or dash & the routes for thousands of hours before upgrade. At some point they would be junior capt, but they had the time on type or with Jazz on the other aircraft

Wasn't there a rule at one point not allowing junior FO with junior captains, when they started hiring junior FO? What happened to that?

Today this is about pilots who have never flown a large aircraft, or the routes, or experience with the company coming over with their few years of flying and going captain. Moving from small multi & small northern airports to YYZ & LGA. More complex in various areas.

[rudder]

You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.

Passing a captain ride & meeting the base TC regulations to be a captain, doesn't mean its safe to be a captain.

It takes years to learn an aircraft well. Especially if you are required to supervise junior FO.
Both the captain & FO can't have little experience on type.

If the FO's junior, & sub ATPL then the captain requires many years of experience on type. Doesn't matter if the captain has an ATPL or 3000 hours on a king air. The captain needs years on type if they are going to work with junior pilots.

If the FO's senior, with an ATPL & years/1000s hr on type, then perhaps a captain with an ATPL & only a year or 1000 hours on type is ok.

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.


Still don't think Jazz would do junior FO with these direct no time on type captains. This can' t be accurate.
An airline run by competent people wouldn't do this.
Colgan didn't even do it

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

[JHR]

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.

Say what? If a pilot is experienced enough, 25hrs of line indoc should be enough on a new type. Happens in corporate ops all the time.

[Inverted2]

You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.

Passing a captain ride & meeting the base TC regulations to be a captain, doesn't mean its safe to be a captain.

It takes years to learn an aircraft well. Especially if you are required to supervise junior FO.
Both the captain & FO can't have little experience on type.

If the FO's junior, & sub ATPL then the captain requires many years of experience on type. Doesn't matter if the captain has an ATPL or 3000 hours on a king air. The captain needs years on type if they are going to work with junior pilots.

If the FO's senior, with an ATPL & years/1000s hr on type, then perhaps a captain with an ATPL & only a year or 1000 hours on type is ok.

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.


Still don't think Jazz would do junior FO with these direct no time on type captains. This can' t be accurate.
An airline run by competent people wouldn't do this.
Colgan didn't even do it

I went direct entry captain with 0 hours on type on my last 3 type ratings at Jazz. Meet the qualifications, pass the training and line check. It’s not that big of a deal.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You can't train lack of experience. That is something that can only be learned the long way through life.

Passing a captain ride & meeting the base TC regulations to be a captain, doesn't mean its safe to be a captain.

It takes years to learn an aircraft well. Especially if you are required to supervise junior FO.
Both the captain & FO can't have little experience on type.

If the FO's junior, & sub ATPL then the captain requires many years of experience on type. Doesn't matter if the captain has an ATPL or 3000 hours on a king air. The captain needs years on type if they are going to work with junior pilots.

If the FO's senior, with an ATPL & years/1000s hr on type, then perhaps a captain with an ATPL & only a year or 1000 hours on type is ok.

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.


Still don't think Jazz would do junior FO with these direct no time on type captains. This can' t be accurate.
An airline run by competent people wouldn't do this.
Colgan didn't even do it

I went direct entry captain with 0 hours on type on my last 3 type ratings at Jazz. Meet the qualifications, pass the training and line check. It’s not that big of a deal.

I agree with inverted here. You either have the decision making skills to be a captain or you don’t. What you fly is not the issue. Any monkey can learn an airplane.

What’s important is the decision making. That take times. However, it can be taught to a certain degree

[Man_in_the_sky]

who's the most at risk.. The new fresh captain who's sharp and have the desire to do good. or the old captain who skips every briefing with every FO

[CanadaAir]

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.

Say what? If a pilot is experienced enough, 25hrs of line indoc should be enough on a new type. Happens in corporate ops all the time.

Most corporate don't hire captains onto a jet who don't have previous jet experience, & to operate overseas & international if they don't have previous similar experience. Not from NWT king air.

[CanadaAir]

What could possibly go wrong

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

1500 hr rule would cost Jazz much more than retaining experienced crew to prevent it from occuring

[CanadaAir]

I went direct entry captain with 0 hours on type on my last 3 type ratings at Jazz. Meet the qualifications, pass the training and line check. It’s not that big of a deal.

I agree with inverted here. You either have the decision making skills to be a captain or you don’t. What you fly is not the issue. Any monkey can learn an airplane.

Let's try to be more than monkeys.

There's other things than decision making & ability to use the controls.

With 0 hr on type, the captain won't know the aircraft as they should.

If you have 3 type ratings as captain at Jazz, then you have already worked with the company, with the routes & airports, with a larger aircraft as a captain.

It isn't ideal to have 0 hr on type, but at least you have similar experience compared to a new hire who's never flown with the company, routes & airports or experienced the differences between a small twin & a Q400 or jet.

[GodlvlPilot]

Used to fly king airs all arund north America and the arctic from busy airspace such as lax - den - phx and many more to sparse airports in the canadian north. Went to jazz upgraded in 6 months. I study pretty hard to be where I am and continually study all the spare time that I have.

[truedude]

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

1500 hr rule would cost Jazz much more than retaining experienced crew to prevent it from occuring

Is it about saftey, or cost? If something big happens, I suspect TC will do it.

[daedalusx]

who's the most at risk.. The new fresh captain who's sharp and have the desire to do good. or the old captain who skips every briefing with every FO

Depends. We’ve all flown with with old really sharp guys and mediocre youngsters and vice versa. But ultimately, for the most part, there’s no shortcuts for “good experience” and the wisdom that comes with it.
If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ? Are you going to survive not hearing the emergency of the month spiel for the 30th time ? Are you going to write him up because he reads the newspaper or “studied the overhead panel” during cruise ?

It’s a very hard job to be a junior capt especially if you upgrade on a different type that you started with.
You might have to operate out of high density airports that you are unfamiliar with. You’ll most likely be called on short call reserve which will give you only little time to prepare yourself.
You no longer can rely on a “safety net” as the guy sitting next to you might only have 300 hours and also most likely inexperienced with high performance aircrafts. Maybe both of you have never landed on a short icy narrow runway with more than 20kts x-wind on a NPA and now you’re doing it for the first time after being called on a reserve CD with 3 hours of sleep …
Yeah I’ll take the grumpy baby boomer …

[digits_]

If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ?

Is that the only thing he skips? Or is it a symptom of a bit of a more systemically different attitude towards company SOPs and CRM concepts.

[truedude]

If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ?

Is that the only thing he skips? Or is it a symptom of a bit of a more systemically different attitude towards company SOPs and CRM concepts.

Or maybe it is because he/she has seen the SOPs continuously added to, to compensate for all the pilots and captains with no experience.

[digits_]

If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ?

Is that the only thing he skips? Or is it a symptom of a bit of a more systemically different attitude towards company SOPs and CRM concepts.

Or maybe it is because he/she has seen the SOPs continuously added to, to compensate for all the pilots and captains with no experience.

How's that relevant? You're either following them, or you're not.

But sounds like you did answer my question