Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

[CanadaAir]

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

1500 hr rule would cost Jazz much more than retaining experienced crew to prevent it from occuring

Is it about saftey, or cost? If something big happens, I suspect TC will do it.

Then Jazz wouldn't have any sub 1500 hr pilots.
So where would the pilots come from?

Its in better interest of Jazz not crash, they might have to pay $200k for an fo if Jazz can't rely on non-ATPL

[CanadaAir]

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

Even if it's not recent development, its not safe & should stop.

Some pilots may be benefitting from the quick upgrades & time on jets & higher pay, understood, its still not safe & should stop. Pilot may not like the idea of the stop.

What's more important, temporary high pay, or all the Jazz pilots out of work from a company shut down?

[truedude]

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

Even if it's not recent development, its not safe & should stop.

Some pilots may be benefitting from the quick upgrades & time on jets & higher pay, understood, its still not safe & should stop. Pilot may not like the idea of the stop.

What's more important, temporary high pay, or all the Jazz pilots out of work from a company shut down?

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

[CanadaAir]

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

[Outlaw58]

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

[Old fella]

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

From someone on the outside, I would find in incomprehensible that any Canadian airline would let an individual occupy any seat( especially left) if there were doubts about said persons ability. Pardon my airline ignorance but isn’t there many checks utilized throughout training that would trigger concerns on skill sets. Wouldn’t an airline park/ cancel schedules due shortage rather than chance a serious incident. Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

[Fanblade]

Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

The Colgin Q400 accident had multiple contributing factors.

- FO's inexperience. Addressed by requiring 1500 hours
- Captain training. Not sure how that was addressed
- Lack of pay to be able to live in or even commute properly to an expensive domicile. Leading to fatigue.

Two of the three factors exist in Canadian aviation today. Not just at Jazz either.

YVR hotels reached prices no new hire could afford this summer. Nor can that new hire afford to live in YVR.

[BTD]

Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

The Colgin Q400 accident had multiple contributing factors.

- FO's inexperience. Addressed by requiring 1500 hours
- Captain training. Not sure how that was addressed
- Lack of pay to be able to live in or even commute properly to an expensive domicile. Leading to fatigue.

Two of the three factors exist in Canadian aviation today. Not just at Jazz either.

YVR hotels reached prices no new hire could afford this summer. Nor can that new hire afford to live in YVR.

The FO had 2200 hrs. The 1500 hr rule ( while I am in favour) wouldn’t change that. It is mentioned in the report about her fatigue due to commuting and that she was sick (although it doesn’t say that contributed.

The capt was just a mess though, signified through his training history.

[QKZXKV]

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

From someone on the outside, I would find in incomprehensible that any Canadian airline would let an individual occupy any seat( especially left) if there were doubts about said persons ability. Pardon my airline ignorance but isn’t there many checks utilized throughout training that would trigger concerns on skill sets. Wouldn’t an airline park/ cancel schedules due shortage rather than chance a serious incident. Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

Colgan Air is always a low hanging fruit argument for those who aren't completely informed.

[Inverted2]

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

Even if it's not recent development, its not safe & should stop.

Some pilots may be benefitting from the quick upgrades & time on jets & higher pay, understood, its still not safe & should stop. Pilot may not like the idea of the stop.

What's more important, temporary high pay, or all the Jazz pilots out of work from a company shut down?

Not sure why you are singling out Jazz. What you are talking about is happening a most companies these days. I know tons of pilots who went to Air Canada with 2000 hours TT and multi engine PIC hours I could count on my fingers and toes and guess what? They were captains at AC a year or 2 later. The countryside obviously isn’t littered with crashed airplanes in case you haven’t noticed.

[digits_]

its not safe & should stop.

What makes you say it's not safe?
What would make it safe?

[CanadaAir]

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

In airline instruction meeting a government standard is one step of many to competence.

Passing training & ride’s a minimum in the industry
Competent crew linked to years of learning on the type
Colgan captain had 111 hr on Q400, minimal time on type

Do Jazz pilots want a company where captain & fo meeting the minimum standard can be flying together?
Who might be fine if the standard flight occurs, but lack ability to deal with irregularities. Or added pressure.

Is allowing the company to do this worth the risk to your job, seniority & pension if a crash were to occur?

[CanadaAir]

The FO had 2200 hrs. The 1500 hr rule ( while I am in favour) wouldn’t change that. It is mentioned in the report about her fatigue due to commuting and that she was sick (although it doesn’t say that contributed.

The capt was just a mess though, signified through his training history.

Competent crew linked to years of learning on the type
Colgan captain had 111 hr on Q400, minimal time on type

1500 hr rule should've been 1500 hr on type to captain

[CanadaAir]

Colgan Air is always a low hanging fruit argument for those who aren't completely informed.

Colgan's one example, used often as it showed many problems with industry, most still exist

Competent crew linked to years of learning on the type
Colgan captain had 111 hr on Q400, minimal time on type
Fo was under 800 hr on type

Two crew min type experience, deadly result

[truedude]

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

In airline instruction meeting a government standard is one step of many to competence.

Passing training & ride’s a minimum in the industry
Competent crew linked to years of learning on the type
Colgan captain had 111 hr on Q400, minimal time on type

Do Jazz pilots want a company where captain & fo meeting the minimum standard can be flying together?
Who might be fine if the standard flight occurs, but lack ability to deal with irregularities. Or added pressure.

Is allowing the company to do this worth the risk to your job, seniority & pension if a crash were to occur?

We don't run the company. We don't get to pick what they do. And it isn't just Jazz, it is Encore, PAL and any other operator at this level. There isn't a pilot at Jazz that wouldn't love to see a 1500 hr minimum rule, as our pay would sky rocket. But it isn't up to us.

It needs to come from Transport. And they don't care, and won't care until there is an accident.

[QKZXKV]

Colgan Air is always a low hanging fruit argument for those who aren't completely informed.

Colgan's one example, used often as it showed many problems with industry, most still exist

Competent crew linked to years of learning on the type
Colgan captain had 111 hr on Q400, minimal time on type
Fo was under 800 hr on type

Two crew min type experience, deadly result

Too simplistic to be valid... There was much more nuance to Colgan...

[CanadaAir]

Not sure why you are singling out Jazz. What you are talking about is happening a most companies these days. I know tons of pilots who went to Air Canada with 2000 hours TT and multi engine PIC hours I could count on my fingers and toes and guess what? They were captains at AC a year or 2 later. The countryside obviously isn’t littered with crashed airplanes in case you haven’t noticed.

At AC, at least 2 years to learn company & routes.

2 years to learn aircraft as fo, then going captain on same type or similar NB

Very different than Jazz
some small aircraft multi time at smaller airports & different routes, then less than 6 months to captain on q400 or jet doing different routes & complex airports, + new company & other aspects

Not the same comparison to AC.

WJ doesn't do this. Neither does AT & other airlines.
Waiting several years prior to upgrade

[CanadaAir]

Colgan Air is always a low hanging fruit argument for those who aren't completely informed.

Colgan's one example, used often as it showed many problems with industry, most still exist

Competent crew linked to years of learning on the type
Colgan captain had 111 hr on Q400, minimal time on type
Fo was under 800 hr on type

Two crew min type experience, deadly result

Too simplistic to be valid... There was much more nuance to Colgan...

Yes there's more nuance.
Yet the min crew time on type was a factor

[CanadaAir]

We don't run the company. We don't get to pick what they do. And it isn't just Jazz, it is Encore, PAL and any other operator at this level. There isn't a pilot at Jazz that wouldn't love to see a 1500 hr minimum rule, as our pay would sky rocket. But it isn't up to us.

It needs to come from Transport. And they don't care, and won't care until there is an accident.

Pilots have some say. They can discuss safety with CEO & management.
If something does go wrong, & CEO knew there were issues & didn't fix them, CEO could be in jail

MEC can talk with TC to get change.

There's ways to prevent an accident, pilots shouldn't stand idle knowing unsafe things are going on, waiting for an accident to occur so they can be paid more.

[CanadaAir]

its not safe & should stop.

What makes you say it's not safe?
What would make it safe?

A captain should have at least a few years on similar type & routes prior to captaining the aircraft.
If Jazz or other company isn't doing that, then it's not safe.
Its less safe if the captain doesn't have the years on type & also the fo doesn't have years on type or even an ATPL.

What would make it safe, at least 1000 hrs of time on similar type to be a captain. 1500 hrs on similar type to work with junior non ATPL fo.
This means the companies such as Jazz need to retain their experienced captains & fo.


Going from a piston multi or king air to q400 or jet isn't similar type.
Even with 6000 hr king air, the pilot should still sit for a few years as fo before captaining a jet.
Maybe the 6000 hr king fo should be paid over what a 250 hr fo makes, thats another topic

[digits_]

its not safe & should stop.

What makes you say it's not safe?
What would make it safe?

A captain should have at least a few years on similar type & routes prior to captaining the aircraft.
If Jazz or other company isn't doing that, then it's not safe.
Its less safe if the captain doesn't have the years on type & also the fo doesn't have years on type or even an ATPL.

What would make it safe, at least 1000 hrs of time on similar type to be a captain. 1500 hrs on similar type to work with junior non ATPL fo.
This means the companies such as Jazz need to retain their experienced captains & fo.


Going from a piston multi or king air to q400 or jet isn't similar type.
Even with 6000 hr king air, the pilot should still sit for a few years as fo before captaining a jet.
Maybe the 6000 hr king fo should be paid over what a 250 hr fo makes, thats another topic

Well, the 'routes' argument is kind of void. There's a whole industry (corporate, air taxi) where pilots/captains operate on brand new 'routes' every day. So let's ignore that aspect for a moment then.

I agree that what you propose would generally be safer. I'm just not sure if it's really required. If we step down from the airlines (where the inexperienced captains are a fairly new concept), and we look at 703/704 ops, where flight instructors go DEC on King Airs and Metros, then we see that it happens without significant issues. If they can survive icing, gravel runways, broken planes, minimal support, then why would those same people not be able to survive in a highly regulated 705 environment?

If you look at the major causes for accidents (CFIT, icing), then those aren't really airline/airplane specific. I'd estimate the step from FI to King Air captain is riskier than King Air captain to Q400 captain with the proper training.

[Full Ins]

Just wait. Jazz guys going to Ac with no captain experience… EVER. Maybe can hold A220/737 Capt in 2 years or less??? What’s the argument there???

[flyingcanuck]

Just wait. Jazz guys going to Ac with no captain experience… EVER. Maybe can hold A220/737 Capt in 2 years or less??? What’s the argument there???

What argument are you talking about? They still need to pass the training

[Full Ins]

The previous arguement is it’s not safe at Jazz. Kick the can down the road another couple years and it’s the same argument at AC.

[altiplano]

"Upgrading with little to no type experience"

Newsflash.

Stories like that happen every month at this country's airlines and it's been happening for 85 years. Same goes south of the border at the largest airline market in the world.

I upgraded into a type I had ZERO time on at this country's largest airline. I've been Captain on that aircraft for 6 years successfully and without incident. The next aircraft I plan to be a Captain on, probably in the next few years, I also have ZERO time on.

You can either do the job or you can't. The system is in place to ensure that those that can't do the job don't get it.