Making 200k+ and going to AC for 55k?

[cjp]

In Europe you also have a legal minimum of 20 paid days of vacation, not including stat holidays. Europeans average 25-30 vacation days a year. Meanwhile you get 10 in Canada and everyone is fighting for that extra pay that you will be taxed on 50%... Hope you guys will find a way out of this without being blinded by the $$.

Porter, we start at, I believe, 29 days of vacation per annum.

[Tbayer2021]

In Europe you also have a legal minimum of 20 paid days of vacation, not including stat holidays. Europeans average 25-30 vacation days a year. Meanwhile you get 10 in Canada and everyone is fighting for that extra pay that you will be taxed on 50%... Hope you guys will find a way out of this without being blinded by the $$.

Porter, we start at, I believe, 29 days of vacation per annum.

Is this excluding stat holidays?

[Exactive22]

Air Canada gives 14 days (2 weeks) per annum, no vacation in the first year. This becomes 21 days after 5 years. Seniority bidding does not give you much freedom in bidding for extra days around those vacation days (unless 70% up in the list).

Seems not worthy a career destination job, yet nobody seems to talk about vacation during negotiations. Almost everything is about salary, which I understand, but I wish we could broaden our focus.

[flyingcanuck]

Air Canada gives 14 days (2 weeks) per annum, no vacation in the first year. This becomes 21 days after 5 years. Seniority bidding does not give you much freedom in bidding for extra days around those vacation days (unless 70% up in the list).

Seems not worthy a career destination job, yet nobody seems to talk about vacation during negotiations. Almost everything is about salary, which I understand, but I wish we could broaden our focus.

Its definitely being talked about right now, and 1st year you get a week vacation or less depending on when you start in the year. Also no STATs for a first year.

[cjp]

In Europe you also have a legal minimum of 20 paid days of vacation, not including stat holidays. Europeans average 25-30 vacation days a year. Meanwhile you get 10 in Canada and everyone is fighting for that extra pay that you will be taxed on 50%... Hope you guys will find a way out of this without being blinded by the $$.

Porter, we start at, I believe, 29 days of vacation per annum.

Is this excluding stat holidays?

Officially it's 19 days to start, 3 x 5 day blocks, 1 x 4 day block, gdos on either end. This year I had some carry over from last year which messed up my mental math. I was advised this includes 10 stat days which brings it to 29. If the way this policy was described to me was incorrect, Porter peeps please correct me.

That said I have nearly 4 weeks of vacation YR1....strung together with GDs.

There is no restriction with regards to year 1 and taking vacation once the awards are given.

[Tbayer2021]

Porter, we start at, I believe, 29 days of vacation per annum.

Is this excluding stat holidays?

Officially it's 19 days to start, 3 x 5 day blocks, 1 x 4 day block, gdos on either end. This year I had some carry over from last year which messed up my mental math. I was advised this includes 10 stat days which brings it to 29. If the way this policy was described to me was incorrect, Porter peeps please correct me.

That said I have nearly 4 weeks of vacation YR1....strung together with GDs.

There is no restriction with regards to year 1 and taking vacation once the awards are given.

Then its misleading to claim 29 days in my opinion. Based on what you're telling me, you start with 15 days vacation and through some tricks (that plenty of other places can also do) you can extend that to about 29. I work at Transat and had 11 days of vacation after my first full year. We also get 11 stat days on top of that, bringing the total to 22 days I can use towards vacation purposes, but only 11 of those are actually vacation. We are also guaranteed 3 GDO's attached to the front or back of every vacation block. But these are part of your GDO's for that month, not extra days.

We break our vacation into blocks of 4 and 7 days. So that means I get 4 vacation blocks of 2x4+2x7 and 3 GDOS attached to each of those blocks. Doing the math your way, we get 34 vacation days to start........which would be misleading to say since in reality its only 11.

[cjp]

Is this excluding stat holidays?

Officially it's 19 days to start, 3 x 5 day blocks, 1 x 4 day block, gdos on either end. This year I had some carry over from last year which messed up my mental math. I was advised this includes 10 stat days which brings it to 29. If the way this policy was described to me was incorrect, Porter peeps please correct me.

That said I have nearly 4 weeks of vacation YR1....strung together with GDs.

There is no restriction with regards to year 1 and taking vacation once the awards are given.

Then its misleading to claim 29 days in my opinion. Based on what you're telling me, you start with 15 days vacation and through some tricks (that plenty of other places can also do) you can extend that to about 29. I work at Transat and had 11 days of vacation after my first full year. We also get 11 stat days on top of that, bringing the total to 22 days I can use towards vacation purposes, but only 11 of those are actually vacation. We are also guaranteed 3 GDO's attached to the front or back of every vacation block. But these are part of your GDO's for that month, not extra days.

We break our vacation into blocks of 4 and 7 days. So that means I get 4 vacation blocks of 2x4+2x7 and 3 GDOS attached to each of those blocks. Doing the math your way, we get 34 vacation days to start........which would be misleading to say since in reality its only 11.

Extending an olive branch - Tbay. Absolutely correct - it can be construed as a potentially misleading comment.

In my opinion however - vacation is vacation. If I can bid for those days in year 1, be awarded for those blocks and leave work behind for those weeks - then what are we discussing. Lots of companies I've worked for in the past don't acknowledge those days - you might get a small taxed payout - but I'd rather have the time - it's way more valuable. Most companies I've worked for unfortunately offer only the bare minimum - and you end up feeling cheated on your time off - or your begging and pleading for more in negotiations.

I was both surprised and impressed when that was brought to my attention.

[Tbayer2021]

Officially it's 19 days to start, 3 x 5 day blocks, 1 x 4 day block, gdos on either end. This year I had some carry over from last year which messed up my mental math. I was advised this includes 10 stat days which brings it to 29. If the way this policy was described to me was incorrect, Porter peeps please correct me.

That said I have nearly 4 weeks of vacation YR1....strung together with GDs.

There is no restriction with regards to year 1 and taking vacation once the awards are given.

Then its misleading to claim 29 days in my opinion. Based on what you're telling me, you start with 15 days vacation and through some tricks (that plenty of other places can also do) you can extend that to about 29. I work at Transat and had 11 days of vacation after my first full year. We also get 11 stat days on top of that, bringing the total to 22 days I can use towards vacation purposes, but only 11 of those are actually vacation. We are also guaranteed 3 GDO's attached to the front or back of every vacation block. But these are part of your GDO's for that month, not extra days.

We break our vacation into blocks of 4 and 7 days. So that means I get 4 vacation blocks of 2x4+2x7 and 3 GDOS attached to each of those blocks. Doing the math your way, we get 34 vacation days to start........which would be misleading to say since in reality its only 11.

Extending an olive branch - Tbay. Absolutely correct - it can be construed as a potentially misleading comment.

In my opinion however - vacation is vacation. If I can bid for those days in year 1, be awarded for those blocks and leave work behind for those weeks - then what are we discussing. Lots of companies I've worked for in the past don't acknowledge those days - you might get a small taxed payout - but I'd rather have the time - it's way more valuable. Most companies I've worked for unfortunately offer only the bare minimum - and you end up feeling cheated on your time off - or your begging and pleading for more in negotiations.

I was both surprised and impressed when that was brought to my attention.

We can certainly agree that the more time off, the better. No argument there! We just need to be clear on what actually counts as vacation days, specially when it comes to negotiations. I wouldn't want my negotiating committee accepting a creative accounting method that says a 1st year FO gets 34 days of vacation. If we stick to straight definition, then that 34 will turn into 57 days after stats and GDO's. I know which one we'd all rather have.

After all, I don't claim to be on vacation for a week every month simply because I can string 7 GDOs together if I wanted to.

[Blueontop]

Air Canada gives 14 days (2 weeks) per annum, no vacation in the first year. This becomes 21 days after 5 years. Seniority bidding does not give you much freedom in bidding for extra days around those vacation days (unless 70% up in the list).

Seems not worthy a career destination job, yet nobody seems to talk about vacation during negotiations. Almost everything is about salary, which I understand, but I wish we could broaden our focus.

Its definitely being talked about right now, and 1st year you get a week vacation or less depending on when you start in the year. Also no STATs for a first year.

New hire AC pilots don’t get stat holidays/pay in the first year? Thats not legal per labour law codes I would put money on.

[Dry Guy]

Vacation sucks here anyways so they're doing you a favor. Take a week vacation and they just cram your regular block into the other 3 weeks of the month.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Vacation sucks here anyways so they're doing you a favor. Take a week vacation and they just cram your regular block into the other 3 weeks of the month.

What? Vacation days have credit values. Is this not the case?How are they “cramming” the rest into the other days. A weeks vacation is generally worth 20-25 credits depending on where you work.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Air Canada gives 14 days (2 weeks) per annum, no vacation in the first year. This becomes 21 days after 5 years. Seniority bidding does not give you much freedom in bidding for extra days around those vacation days (unless 70% up in the list).

Seems not worthy a career destination job, yet nobody seems to talk about vacation during negotiations. Almost everything is about salary, which I understand, but I wish we could broaden our focus.

Its definitely being talked about right now, and 1st year you get a week vacation or less depending on when you start in the year. Also no STATs for a first year.

New hire AC pilots don’t get stat holidays/pay in the first year? Thats not legal per labour law codes I would put money on.

In the Canada labour code, vacation pay is something that you earn, you don’t immediately get a full years worth from date of hire.

[Blueontop]

Its definitely being talked about right now, and 1st year you get a week vacation or less depending on when you start in the year. Also no STATs for a first year.

New hire AC pilots don’t get stat holidays/pay in the first year? Thats not legal per labour law codes I would put money on.

In the Canada labour code, vacation pay is something that you earn, you don’t immediately get a full years worth from date of hire.

Wasn’t referring to the vacation days, the federal stat holidays is what I’m talking about. Never heard of any other organization that doesn’t pay stat pay in the first year. I don’t think that’s legal per the labor code

[Exactive22]

Air Canada advertises exceeding government standards for safety. Why not exceed it in terms of happy employees/pilots, instead of giving labor code/government minimums?

Give us real vacation so we actually get 5-6 weeks per year to spend with out families while we are still young. It's not too much to ask for in the 21st century I think. I really count on ALPA to bring us real improvement here.

[Dry Guy]

Vacation sucks here anyways so they're doing you a favor. Take a week vacation and they just cram your regular block into the other 3 weeks of the month.

What? Vacation days have credit values. Is this not the case?How are they “cramming” the rest into the other days. A weeks vacation is generally worth 20-25 credits depending on where you work.

Yeah it's really awful. I just think of vacation as guaranteed days off for things like your kid's birthday. As long as it's not in the summer or near Christmas. You're not getting those.

[CaptDukeNukem]

New hire AC pilots don’t get stat holidays/pay in the first year? Thats not legal per labour law codes I would put money on.

In the Canada labour code, vacation pay is something that you earn, you don’t immediately get a full years worth from date of hire.

Wasn’t referring to the vacation days, the federal stat holidays is what I’m talking about. Never heard of any other organization that doesn’t pay stat pay in the first year. I don’t think that’s legal per the labor code

Yes but if you start a ground school sept 1st, why should you have gotten a stat day for every stat prior to that day. You don’t get 11 stat days cuz you started on a specific calendar year. You get what’s owed legally. Nothing more.

Edit: every airline I’ve worked for has given the appropriate amount of stat days and vacation based on the hire date I joined

[DanWEC]

I don't mean for this to be inflammatory, but the more I discover about AC's rigs the more surprised I am. Brutal compared to the other majors, and I was always under the impression they were the best. I really hope you guys go to the mattresses with this renewal and don't let up until you've gotten back every last shred of what was schemed away from you, and return to setting the bar like AC used to long ago. I'll walk the line with you.

[Blueontop]

In the Canada labour code, vacation pay is something that you earn, you don’t immediately get a full years worth from date of hire.

Wasn’t referring to the vacation days, the federal stat holidays is what I’m talking about. Never heard of any other organization that doesn’t pay stat pay in the first year. I don’t think that’s legal per the labor code

Yes but if you start a ground school sept 1st, why should you have gotten a stat day for every stat prior to that day. You don’t get 11 stat days cuz you started on a specific calendar year. You get what’s owed legally. Nothing more.

Edit: every airline I’ve worked for has given the appropriate amount of stat days and vacation based on the hire date I joined

With response to your edit. Yes that’s exactly to what I’m referring to. Any stat day AFTER doh should be compensated accordingly. The original post makes it seem like that any stat after doh you won’t be compensated for the entire proceeding year? Perhaps I misunderstood and am waiting for a corrective reply. Like I have stated already if the original statement I replied to is correct that would not be legal per the labour code, I would bet that.

Eg. DOH September 1st, the next stat would be thanksgiving

Will the new hire be paid the appropriate stat pay+any time and half if day actually operated?

[FL030]

I don't mean for this to be inflammatory, but the more I discover about AC's rigs the more surprised I am. Brutal compared to the other majors, and I was always under the impression they were the best. I really hope you guys go to the mattresses with this renewal and don't let up until you've gotten back every last shred of what was schemed away from you, and return to setting the bar like AC used to long ago. I'll walk the line with you.

I honestly think we'd be better off if we had been un-unionized for all those years instead of ACPA working with the company to sell us on bad contracts.

[digits_]

Eg. DOH September 1st, the next stat would be thanksgiving

No, federally that would be the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation end of september...

[cdnavater]

Wasn’t referring to the vacation days, the federal stat holidays is what I’m talking about. Never heard of any other organization that doesn’t pay stat pay in the first year. I don’t think that’s legal per the labor code

Yes but if you start a ground school sept 1st, why should you have gotten a stat day for every stat prior to that day. You don’t get 11 stat days cuz you started on a specific calendar year. You get what’s owed legally. Nothing more.

Edit: every airline I’ve worked for has given the appropriate amount of stat days and vacation based on the hire date I joined

With response to your edit. Yes that’s exactly to what I’m referring to. Any stat day AFTER doh should be compensated accordingly. The original post makes it seem like that any stat after doh you won’t be compensated for the entire proceeding year? Perhaps I misunderstood and am waiting for a corrective reply. Like I have stated already if the original statement I replied to is correct that would not be legal per the labour code, I would bet that.

Eg. DOH September 1st, the next stat would be thanksgiving

Will the new hire be paid the appropriate stat pay+any time and half if day actually operated?

The way it works at Jazz and I’m pretty sure AC is the same, we all bid our vacation for the next year in November. What we are bidding for 2024 this November is accrued vacation from 2023. If you started mid year you won’t have a full allotment, it will be prorated, however you can bid for a full allotment just will have to designate what is paid vs unpaid.
So for clarity, if you start in November you will have 2 months prorated vacation/stats for the next year and then the following year a full allotment.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Wasn’t referring to the vacation days, the federal stat holidays is what I’m talking about. Never heard of any other organization that doesn’t pay stat pay in the first year. I don’t think that’s legal per the labor code

Yes but if you start a ground school sept 1st, why should you have gotten a stat day for every stat prior to that day. You don’t get 11 stat days cuz you started on a specific calendar year. You get what’s owed legally. Nothing more.

Edit: every airline I’ve worked for has given the appropriate amount of stat days and vacation based on the hire date I joined

With response to your edit. Yes that’s exactly to what I’m referring to. Any stat day AFTER doh should be compensated accordingly. The original post makes it seem like that any stat after doh you won’t be compensated for the entire proceeding year? Perhaps I misunderstood and am waiting for a corrective reply. Like I have stated already if the original statement I replied to is correct that would not be legal per the labour code, I would bet that.

Eg. DOH September 1st, the next stat would be thanksgiving

Will the new hire be paid the appropriate stat pay+any time and half if day actually operated?

I get what you are saying. We are basically vacation days in lieu of of stat.

So it’s up to you to decide when the STAT or vacation or whatever you want to call is placed. And yes, If you work on a Vac or a stat. You get paid time and half. Just because you worked on Nov 11th it doesn’t mean you should get 1.5X. The company gave you the stats you were entitled for and each pilot chooses where they go.

[Wayans]

Porter, we start at, I believe, 29 days of vacation per annum.

Is this excluding stat holidays?

Officially it's 19 days to start, 3 x 5 day blocks, 1 x 4 day block, gdos on either end. This year I had some carry over from last year which messed up my mental math. I was advised this includes 10 stat days which brings it to 29. If the way this policy was described to me was incorrect, Porter peeps please correct me.

That said I have nearly 4 weeks of vacation YR1....strung together with GDs.

There is no restriction with regards to year 1 and taking vacation once the awards are given.

Sadly not correct. Porter starts with 10 days vacation (2 weeks of Monday-Friday off in essence) plus the 10 stat days - totalling 20 (it used to be 9 stat days, and our FOAG needs updating as it has inaccurate info, which may be where you got your info) And it's prorated based on date of hire. We get two guaranteed days off both before and after the vacation blocks (again; Monday-Friday) so it allows up to four 9-day stretches off in the first year, again depending on date of hire, and how you schedule it.

Our max is 30 days, including the 10 stat days.

[cjp]

Is this excluding stat holidays?

Officially it's 19 days to start, 3 x 5 day blocks, 1 x 4 day block, gdos on either end. This year I had some carry over from last year which messed up my mental math. I was advised this includes 10 stat days which brings it to 29. If the way this policy was described to me was incorrect, Porter peeps please correct me.

That said I have nearly 4 weeks of vacation YR1....strung together with GDs.

There is no restriction with regards to year 1 and taking vacation once the awards are given.

Sadly not correct. Porter starts with 10 days vacation (2 weeks of Monday-Friday off in essence) plus the 10 stat days - totalling 20 (it used to be 9 stat days, and our FOAG needs updating as it has inaccurate info, which may be where you got your info) And it's prorated based on date of hire. We get two guaranteed days off both before and after the vacation blocks (again; Monday-Friday) so it allows up to four 9-day stretches off in the first year, again depending on date of hire, and how you schedule it.

Our max is 30 days, including the 10 stat days.

Gracias. To my colleagues, apologies for the incorrect information.