“I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

[cpta2020]

I feel like the union needs to slap him across the face with U.S level increases on all lifestyle and income for flight crew - and not yield until he retracts his impression of what pilots needs to be effective and happy in their career. He is fortunate Air Canada has tall barriers protecting it from any true local competition.

Olive branch; there's probably a small minority of narcicists in this industry that match his description - where flying heavy metal makes a big difference in their day to day.

Well said!

[Daniel Cooper]

I feel like the union needs to slap him across the face with U.S level increases on all lifestyle and income for flight crew - and not yield until he retracts his impression of what pilots needs to be effective and happy in their career. He is fortunate Air Canada has tall barriers protecting it from any true local competition.

Olive branch; there's probably a small minority of narcicists in this industry that match his description - where flying heavy metal makes a big difference in their day to day.

Mm, I keep getting cut off by a Tesla with a AV80R vanity plate.

[Inverted2]

I’m sure AC pilots will be thrilled to fly a 30 seat electric airplane with a 200Nm range.

Who cares what you fly. I'd actually love that for the right wage. Pop and chips to the reserves.

Then you’d have to charge it for hours on the Rez with a diesel generator.

[yowflyer23]

This article is simply posturing by the execs ahead of negotiations. They would never go out in public and say "yeah we think the pilots deserve a good raise to be more in line with the US." Their job is to decrease CASM and increase RASM. They would never willingly make a move that would increase CASM unless they absolutely had to. And if CASM were to go up, which it will, they have some pretty damn sophisticated Revenue Management tools to manage the RASM. If a new route was being considered that would be rendered unprofitable with a 2.5% increase in overall operating costs (which coincides with a 40% increase in pilot wages according to the National Bank), it wouldn't have even made it past initial P&L evaluations unless the route was of strategic value, in which case they'd launch it anyways. This should have little bearing on the success/growth of the company. ALPA just needs to stand their ground.

[Freshredmeat]

This article is simply posturing by the execs ahead of negotiations. They would never go out in public and say "yeah we think the pilots deserve a good raise to be more in line with the US." Their job is to decrease CASM and increase RASM. They would never willingly make a move that would increase CASM unless they absolutely had to. And if CASM were to go up, which it will, they have some pretty damn sophisticated Revenue Management tools to manage the RASM. If a new route was being considered that would be rendered unprofitable with a 2.5% increase in overall operating costs (which coincides with a 40% increase in pilot wages according to the National Bank), it wouldn't have even made it past initial P&L evaluations unless the route was of strategic value, in which case they'd launch it anyways. This should have little bearing on the success/growth of the company. ALPA just needs to stand their ground.

Insulting the pilots...why Mikey gets $12.4 million per year!

[Core]

Why does it seem like Air Canada literally abhors their pilots? An airline who has the cheapest labour of any North American major.

While I don't wish the temporary belt-tightening on you folks, I honestly hope you strike, because it sounds like management still feels like they can keep laughing while strangling you, and they need a wakeup call to change the culture through the entire organization. AC only cares about their C-suite first, it's been incredibly apparent.

[FL030]

Why does it seem like Air Canada literally abhors their pilots? An airline who has the cheapest labour of any North American major.

While I don't wish the temporary belt-tightening on you folks, I honestly hope you strike, because it sounds like management still feels like they can keep laughing while strangling you, and they need a wakeup call to change the culture through the entire organization. AC only cares about their C-suite first, it's been incredibly apparent.

Abhor would be a step up really. They look on us with indifference, as one would look upon a small insect. No respect whatsoever. I hope we get a chance to strike, and better yet get legislated back to work, because I'm not going back.

[cjp]

I feel like the union needs to slap him across the face with U.S level increases on all lifestyle and income for flight crew - and not yield until he retracts his impression of what pilots needs to be effective and happy in their career. He is fortunate Air Canada has tall barriers protecting it from any true local competition.

Olive branch; there's probably a small minority of narcicists in this industry that match his description - where flying heavy metal makes a big difference in their day to day.

Mm, I keep getting cut off by a Tesla with a AV80R vanity plate.

You got me.

[altiplano]

What a fooking coont.

Can't wait to get locked out and take some time off. You couldn't legislate me back even at double time. I can't wait to take the time off and fook Rousseau, what an out of touch prikk! Fook him.

[BTD]

I’m sure AC pilots will be thrilled to fly a 30 seat electric airplane with a 200Nm range.

Who cares what you fly. I'd actually love that for the right wage. Pop and chips to the reserves.

Then you’d have to charge it for hours on the Rez with a diesel generator.

And the diesel has to be flown in on a hawker 748

[Fanblade]

Funny.

Much of what Rousseau is stating is recycled Rovenescu/Smith arguments from 2014.

One example

- You don’t need a raise. You will get that from a promotion.

The big difference today is how the pilot group is reacting. In 2014 the union was even supporting of the concept.

I don’t see any new material here. Just the same recycled BS that worked a decade ago that is getting stale

[Fanblade]

From a labour perspective, that article is distressing. From an Express (Jazz) perspective, it signals abandon ship.

MR just told the mainline pilots that the WJ pilot contract is the bar.

It certainly looks like 2024 will be a turbulent year as nothing has changed. The world is not flat no matter how many times you tell yourself that it is.

Yup. It’s going to be turbulent.

Most of what he saying, management has been saying to the pilot group for the better part of a decade. It isn’t new.

This statement is new.

The company is confronting the increased demand and attrition at Air Canada Express by “trying to wait to increase the wage rates,” Rousseau said. Playing in the mainline carrier’s favor is “an attractive up-flow agreement.

This statement is loaded.

Admission. He knows he isn’t paying Jazz pilots enough.
Admission. AC uses flow as a replacement for Jazz wages

Delusion. 30% flow through is attractive enough to keep pilots trading wages for a flow through carrot.

More loaded statements.

Air Canada’s trimmed domestic capacity is mostly caused by the drastic pulldown in regional flying by exclusive partner Jazz,…….which accounted for 44% of the company’s domestic capacity in August, is only at 53% of 2019 traffic levels, OAG data shows.

The apparent knock-on effects are cancellations, reduced frequency, and some small-city service suspensions, though the mainline carrier is mitigating it somewhat by upgauging aircraft.

Admission. The route cancellation are a direct result of “ trying to wait to increase Jazz pilot rates”. The root cause is not pilot shortage. The root cause is pay.

My prediction is that route cancellations continue as AC struggles to cover regional lift well into next summer. If I was Flair Lynx or Porter I would be all over this.

[cdnavater]

From a labour perspective, that article is distressing. From an Express (Jazz) perspective, it signals abandon ship.

MR just told the mainline pilots that the WJ pilot contract is the bar.

It certainly looks like 2024 will be a turbulent year as nothing has changed. The world is not flat no matter how many times you tell yourself that it is.

Yup. It’s going to be turbulent.

Most of what he saying, management has been saying to the pilot group for the better part of a decade. It isn’t new.

This statement is new.

The company is confronting the increased demand and attrition at Air Canada Express by “trying to wait to increase the wage rates,” Rousseau said. Playing in the mainline carrier’s favor is “an attractive up-flow agreement.

This statement is loaded.

Admission. He knows he isn’t paying Jazz pilots enough.
Admission. AC uses flow as a replacement for Jazz wages

Delusion. 30% flow through is attractive enough to keep pilots trading wages for a flow through carrot.

My prediction is that route cancellations continue as AC struggles to cover regional lift well into next summer.

I believe the statement of “trying to wait” is referring to a downturn, our CEO said basically that on the last quarterly Q & A.

[Fanblade]

From a labour perspective, that article is distressing. From an Express (Jazz) perspective, it signals abandon ship.

MR just told the mainline pilots that the WJ pilot contract is the bar.

It certainly looks like 2024 will be a turbulent year as nothing has changed. The world is not flat no matter how many times you tell yourself that it is.

Yup. It’s going to be turbulent.

Most of what he saying, management has been saying to the pilot group for the better part of a decade. It isn’t new.

This statement is new.

The company is confronting the increased demand and attrition at Air Canada Express by “trying to wait to increase the wage rates,” Rousseau said. Playing in the mainline carrier’s favor is “an attractive up-flow agreement.

This statement is loaded.

Admission. He knows he isn’t paying Jazz pilots enough.
Admission. AC uses flow as a replacement for Jazz wages

Delusion. 30% flow through is attractive enough to keep pilots trading wages for a flow through carrot.

My prediction is that route cancellations continue as AC struggles to cover regional lift well into next summer.

I believe the statement of “trying to wait” is referring to a downturn, our CEO said basically that on the last quarterly Q & A.

I get that. Or maybe a failure of one of the startups.

But that won’t end the shortage. An event may dull the shortage temporarily. But only temporarily.

That kind of answer is based on hope in the face of adversity. That isn’t a strategy. Unrealistic considering the amount of new entrants vs demand. Even a catastrophic event like Covid only served to make the situation worse over time.

The longer it takes to attract new entrants into this profession the worse it will get. It’s actually not about you or me. It’s not about next quarter for the C suite. It’s about that teenager leaving grade 12.

With all the flight school closures over the last couple of decades I doubt we have the infrastructure to produce the pilots even if we could attract them. Flight Schools.

Another victim of low pilot wages. There is a whole infrastructure that needs to be rebuilt.

[cdnavater]

Yup. It’s going to be turbulent.

Most of what he saying, management has been saying to the pilot group for the better part of a decade. It isn’t new.

This statement is new.

The company is confronting the increased demand and attrition at Air Canada Express by “trying to wait to increase the wage rates,” Rousseau said. Playing in the mainline carrier’s favor is “an attractive up-flow agreement.

This statement is loaded.

Admission. He knows he isn’t paying Jazz pilots enough.
Admission. AC uses flow as a replacement for Jazz wages

Delusion. 30% flow through is attractive enough to keep pilots trading wages for a flow through carrot.

My prediction is that route cancellations continue as AC struggles to cover regional lift well into next summer.

I believe the statement of “trying to wait” is referring to a downturn, our CEO said basically that on the last quarterly Q & A.

I get that. Or maybe a failure of one of the startups.

But that won’t end the shortage. An event may dull the shortage temporarily. But only temporarily.

That kind of answer is based on hope in the face of adversity. That isn’t a strategy. Unrealistic considering the amount of new entrants vs demand. Even a catastrophic event like Covid only served to make the situation worse over time.

The longer it takes to attract new entrants into this profession the worse it will get. It’s actually not about you or me. It’s about that teenager leaving grade 12

Agreed, I completely discouraged my kids from getting into the profession and glad they had seen enough over their lives that they had zero interest.
The failure of Flair wouldn’t do much but Porter not gaining any traction would sure take some pressure off, they are planning to have upwards of 1500 pilots. I don’t like the fact that is the size Jazz was, I also don’t like coincidence, is it?

[Fanblade]

I believe the statement of “trying to wait” is referring to a downturn, our CEO said basically that on the last quarterly Q & A.

I get that. Or maybe a failure of one of the startups.

But that won’t end the shortage. An event may dull the shortage temporarily. But only temporarily.

That kind of answer is based on hope in the face of adversity. That isn’t a strategy. Unrealistic considering the amount of new entrants vs demand. Even a catastrophic event like Covid only served to make the situation worse over time.

The longer it takes to attract new entrants into this profession the worse it will get. It’s actually not about you or me. It’s about that teenager leaving grade 12

Agreed, I completely discouraged my kids from getting into the profession and glad they had seen enough over their lives that they had zero interest.
The failure of Flair wouldn’t do much but Porter not gaining any traction would sure take some pressure off, they are planning to have upwards of 1500 pilots. I don’t like the fact that is the size Jazz was, I also don’t like coincidence, is it?

If you are referring to AC. The E2 doesn’t fit into scope at AC. It’s too large. A Porter CPA running the E2 is not possible. The only possibility would be Porter running only the Q under a CPA and the E2 on Porter scheduled routes. That would be far less than 1500 pilots. Even then AC usually limits CPA partners from competing with them.

Remember how pissed AC was about Thomas Cook.

AC alone wants to hire 1000 pilots over 18 months. A crew requirement of 3300 in 2021 to 5500 today. 6000 by the end of next year. AC is the largest driving force behind the shortage.

I think what is really going on is exactly what Rousseau stated. He is very willing to wait until he has no choice but to pay. He is very willing to endure pain and retraction while waiting. He has some unrealistic views on flow through carrots and how much value pilots put into a Rondel that are encouraging him to wait.

Eventually reality will catch up. If there were to be a recession. It would only delay.

[cdnavater]

I get that. Or maybe a failure of one of the startups.

But that won’t end the shortage. An event may dull the shortage temporarily. But only temporarily.

That kind of answer is based on hope in the face of adversity. That isn’t a strategy. Unrealistic considering the amount of new entrants vs demand. Even a catastrophic event like Covid only served to make the situation worse over time.

The longer it takes to attract new entrants into this profession the worse it will get. It’s actually not about you or me. It’s about that teenager leaving grade 12

Agreed, I completely discouraged my kids from getting into the profession and glad they had seen enough over their lives that they had zero interest.
The failure of Flair wouldn’t do much but Porter not gaining any traction would sure take some pressure off, they are planning to have upwards of 1500 pilots. I don’t like the fact that is the size Jazz was, I also don’t like coincidence, is it?

If you are referring to AC. The E2 doesn’t fit into scope at AC. It’s too large. A Porter CPA running the E2 is not possible. The only possibility would be Porter running only the Q under a CPA and the E2 on Porter scheduled routes. That would be far less than 1500 pilots. Even then AC usually limits CPA partners from competing with them.

Remember how pissed AC was about Thomas Cook.

AC alone wants to hire 1000 pilots over 18 months. A crew requirement of 3300 in 2021 to 5500 today. 6000 by the end of next year. AC is the largest driving force behind the shortage.

I think what is really going on is exactly what Rousseau stated. He is very willing to wait until he has no choice but to pay. He is very willing to endure pain and retraction while waiting. He has some unrealistic views on flow through carrots and how much value pilots put into a Rondel that are encouraging him to wait.

Eventually reality will catch up. If there were to be a recession. It would only delay.

No, I didn’t mean to imply anything about the E2 at AC, more that Porter is targeting Jazz pilots and is aggressively going after AC market share, including for business travel. Recent promotions about taking your points and status to their travel reward program as evidence. Them taking Jazz pilots is a definite thorn in ACs side for the regional lift, causing many problems that AC, like you said is happy to wait to fix, not exactly sure what they are waiting for though, only a guess.
I think if AC were smart, they should take the 70% of OTS from Porter and not mess with the 30% obligation, this would halt Porter in their tracks, I do see them as a threat to domestic and NA market share.
I’m curious though, if AC did that could it be construed as predatory? Is the fact Porter hire many Jazz pilots not considered predatory because they are the upstart?

[truedude]

Agreed, I completely discouraged my kids from getting into the profession and glad they had seen enough over their lives that they had zero interest.
The failure of Flair wouldn’t do much but Porter not gaining any traction would sure take some pressure off, they are planning to have upwards of 1500 pilots. I don’t like the fact that is the size Jazz was, I also don’t like coincidence, is it?

If you are referring to AC. The E2 doesn’t fit into scope at AC. It’s too large. A Porter CPA running the E2 is not possible. The only possibility would be Porter running only the Q under a CPA and the E2 on Porter scheduled routes. That would be far less than 1500 pilots. Even then AC usually limits CPA partners from competing with them.

Remember how pissed AC was about Thomas Cook.

AC alone wants to hire 1000 pilots over 18 months. A crew requirement of 3300 in 2021 to 5500 today. 6000 by the end of next year. AC is the largest driving force behind the shortage.

I think what is really going on is exactly what Rousseau stated. He is very willing to wait until he has no choice but to pay. He is very willing to endure pain and retraction while waiting. He has some unrealistic views on flow through carrots and how much value pilots put into a Rondel that are encouraging him to wait.

Eventually reality will catch up. If there were to be a recession. It would only delay.

No, I didn’t mean to imply anything about the E2 at AC, more that Porter is targeting Jazz pilots and is aggressively going after AC market share, including for business travel. Recent promotions about taking your points and status to their travel reward program as evidence. Them taking Jazz pilots is a definite thorn in ACs side for the regional lift, causing many problems that AC, like you said is happy to wait to fix, not exactly sure what they are waiting for though, only a guess.
I think if AC were smart, they should take the 70% of OTS from Porter and not mess with the 30% obligation, this would halt Porter in their tracks, I do see them as a threat to domestic and NA market share.
I’m curious though, if AC did that could it be construed as predatory? Is the fact Porter hire many Jazz pilots not considered predatory because they are the upstart?

Do you actually think that many people at Porter want to go to AC. Given AC is currently hiring caravan drivers and FOs from PC12s, I'd say AC is already scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

[cdnavater]

If you are referring to AC. The E2 doesn’t fit into scope at AC. It’s too large. A Porter CPA running the E2 is not possible. The only possibility would be Porter running only the Q under a CPA and the E2 on Porter scheduled routes. That would be far less than 1500 pilots. Even then AC usually limits CPA partners from competing with them.

Remember how pissed AC was about Thomas Cook.

AC alone wants to hire 1000 pilots over 18 months. A crew requirement of 3300 in 2021 to 5500 today. 6000 by the end of next year. AC is the largest driving force behind the shortage.

I think what is really going on is exactly what Rousseau stated. He is very willing to wait until he has no choice but to pay. He is very willing to endure pain and retraction while waiting. He has some unrealistic views on flow through carrots and how much value pilots put into a Rondel that are encouraging him to wait.

Eventually reality will catch up. If there were to be a recession. It would only delay.

No, I didn’t mean to imply anything about the E2 at AC, more that Porter is targeting Jazz pilots and is aggressively going after AC market share, including for business travel. Recent promotions about taking your points and status to their travel reward program as evidence. Them taking Jazz pilots is a definite thorn in ACs side for the regional lift, causing many problems that AC, like you said is happy to wait to fix, not exactly sure what they are waiting for though, only a guess.
I think if AC were smart, they should take the 70% of OTS from Porter and not mess with the 30% obligation, this would halt Porter in their tracks, I do see them as a threat to domestic and NA market share.
I’m curious though, if AC did that could it be construed as predatory? Is the fact Porter hire many Jazz pilots not considered predatory because they are the upstart?

Do you actually think that many people at Porter want to go to AC. Given AC is currently hiring caravan drivers and FOs from PC12s, I'd say AC is already scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

I imagine that many are waiting to see what happens with negotiations, if I were an FO at Porter, it would be an easy decision but the Captains will need to weigh the long term risks with a start up versus an established carrier.

[RRJetPilot]

I have friends at porter. None are interested in AC.

[Fanblade]

Them taking Jazz pilots is a definite thorn in ACs side for the regional lift, causing many problems that AC, like you said is happy to wait to fix, not exactly sure what they are waiting for though, only a guess.

The problem for MR is that competing for pilots will drive pilot wages higher. Something he is trying to avoid. His whole argument is AC doesn’t need to be competitive on wages because everyone wants to work here. The last thing he wants is to go tit for tat with Porter or anyone else as he believes it’s not required for AC. The best you will see him do is match the pay minus whatever he believes the flow through carrot is worth.

A pilot shortage brings on upguaging. He has ordered the aircraft and is hiring the pilots. Two years from now that piece will be in place. He doesn’t need a future Jazz as large as it was. He is waiting and willing to endure that gap with route cancellations.

He must have the support of the BOD for this direction. If at the end of the day it becomes clear the current pay a Jazz is not enough. It’s not. That attrition is exceeding what he sees as Jazz’s future size. Then and only then will he raise pay at Jazz. And then only barely enough. You are stuck in a long term contract. You can not make him pay. Don’t expect him to pay anything beyond the bare minimum. For him the jury on what bare minimum looks like is still out.

I’m curious though, if AC did that could it be construed as predatory? Is the fact Porter hire many Jazz pilots not considered predatory because they are the upstart?

There is nothing illegal about competing for workers. With that said emptying the competition of pilots might get the attention of the competition bureau.

AC has actually been very consistent with this message for years.

- We are entitled to a Canadian discount because you are trapped within these borders.
- We are entitled to a rondel discount on top of the Canadian discount as we are the only legacy.
- AC pilots can not have a raise until WJ does first. We don’t need to compete. Even then the rondel discount applies.

None of this is going to change today tomorrow or next week. The only thing that will overcome this attitude is making them.

The labor discount they have over their international competitors is massive. They won’t let it go easily

Jazz pilots are not in a position to make AC do anything. Arms length from AC and trapped in a contract. No AC employee group has been in a position to make AC doing anything for a decade. If you include Harpers intervention and CCAA. Two decades pilots have been effectively kept in a weak position

The AC pilots are the first in a long long time. Rousseau just threw down the gauntlet.

He isn’t budging……………without force

[Ash Ketchum]

All these statements do is unify the AC pilot group even further. The AC executives should be very worried because this current pilot group and union is hungry for change and will not settle for anything less than historic gains.

[lownslow]

The E2 doesn’t fit into scope at AC. It’s too large.

I distinctly remember years ago being told by some VP at Jazz in no uncertain terms that they would never, ever operate Q400s or the bigger RJs. Scope wouldn’t allow it. Can’t happen.

I’m certain whatever AC pilots get offered this fall will once again come with a hit to scope whether it’s more CPAs or bigger jets to Jazz.

[Fanblade]

The E2 doesn’t fit into scope at AC. It’s too large.

I distinctly remember years ago being told by some VP at Jazz in no uncertain terms that they would never, ever operate Q400s or the bigger RJs. Scope wouldn’t allow it. Can’t happen.

I’m certain whatever AC pilots get offered this fall will once again come with a hit to scope whether it’s more CPAs or bigger jets to Jazz.

You’re certain are you? Yes scope only moves in one direction. However there is only pressure to move when you are out of step with the rest of the industry. Like when the rest of NA was flying Q’s, 175’s and 700/900’s at the regionals and at AC it was far more limited.

That doesn’t exist today nor does this pilot group have an appetite for concessions.

Also it won’t be fall. The strike showdown will be after Christmas.

[Fanblade]

All these statements do is unify the AC pilot group even further. The AC executives should be very worried because this current pilot group and union is hungry for change and will not settle for anything less than historic gains.

He knows what you just stated means this will have to go to the wall. Historic gains = Make me. Since we are going to the wall he doesn’t care about working up the pilot group. It’s going to happen regardless. ALPA has set a pattern over the last few years. He knows the playbook

He will start this process anchoring as low as reasonably possible. We will anchor as high as reasonably possible. That is how this works. He won’t budge from anchoring low until 11:55pm.