Air Canada pilots stand “UNITED”

[FNGYYZ]

That generation bit off on the idea that the pay of pilots makes or break airlines.

They generally took whatever management spit out and took it as folklore

They were handed a defeat in 2012 when the government threw labor at AC under the bus. Pilots were subjected to the worst kind of arbitration: Final Offer Selection

This was done after a rogue MEC Chair and a few culprits negotiated massive, permanent, scope changing concessions to "save the airline".

This was all after they felt they knew better than the world's largest pilot union. Somehow ALPA was labeled as bad. No thought to put into making ALPA better and overall improvement of the profession. They become buds with management. Think "Stockholm Syndrome" on steroids

This loss led to an erosion of union culture and the lost belief in unions. The pilot group then went down the road of a "new relationship"

They then negotiated an unprecedented 10 yrs labor deal under the guise the airline would only expand with it. Of course every legacy carrier expanded without this sort of a handcuffed deal. Now their contracts absolutely destroy anything at Air Canada. This includes the world famous "flat pay"

This was all compounded by voting in company shills that did not trust their own and instead worked hard to be friends with management. All you can do is "ask nicely"

Of course this led to a continual decline in working conditions and despite of the 10 yrs deal, STILL managed to produce concessions.

These are the folks SportingRifle supported. I hope he is reflective of his errors and understands the mistakes of his past

What is of note, is that many of the people who negotiated for the union, now do that AGAINST their own pilots

What's ironic is these guys have no idea what a union is actually capable of. Especially one with the resources of ALPA. This will be a wakeup call for them

[rooster]

I’m old.
I don’t do VO.
I stood on the informational picket line outside the terminal in YYZ.
I have walked two picket lines that produced much needed changes to our employment contracts that are still benefitting junior pilots today.
And you think I am the reason your career isn’t what you think it should be?
Our unions have made a lot of big mistakes in the past. My fear is that the next generation, ignorant of history, is going to repeat many of them.

You've GOT to be joking me. This statement tells me everything I need to know about your gen's mentality. This is exactly the reason the junior pilots are fighting to reverse this crap you guys supposedly graced the pilot group with. Your group did NOTHING for the junior pilots except take concession after concession to 'save the operation' and 'capture the flying'. Now your group's actions have degraded the profession for those junior pilots and they are left coming in to clean up the mess of your generation. Good for you for not taking overtime (I don't know what the V stands for), good for you for attending the picket, but don't stand on ceremony and act like your gen really did a damn thing for the next gen. The pilot contract peaked in 2003 and has eroded significantly since then. I do NOT work for AC nor will I ever (no offence meant to the AC pilots), so no I'm not blaming you for why my career isn't what it is. But I'm blaming your generation for degrading the profession and contract for the pilots who are settling in for their turn at a long career there. The audacity to think they will make the same mistake as your gen did tells me how out of touch you and your vintage are. I certainly hope you do your part in correcting your group's mistakes and at least leave this place better than when ya'll ruined it. That would be a respectable legacy to leave vs the "I'm retiring soon so who cares" mentality that I'm hearing about from the senior guys crewing the long hauls with 4 skippers.

[Bede]

I’m old.
I don’t do VO.
I stood on the informational picket line outside the terminal in YYZ.
I have walked two picket lines that produced much needed changes to our employment contracts that are still benefitting junior pilots today.
And you think I am the reason your career isn’t what you think it should be?
Our unions have made a lot of big mistakes in the past. My fear is that the next generation, ignorant of history, is going to repeat many of them.

You've GOT to be joking me. This statement tells me everything I need to know about your gen's mentality. This is exactly the reason the junior pilots are fighting to reverse this crap you guys supposedly graced the pilot group with. Your group did NOTHING for the junior pilots except take concession after concession to 'save the operation' and 'capture the flying'. Now your group's actions have degraded the profession for those junior pilots and they are left coming in to clean up the mess of your generation. Good for you for not taking overtime (I don't know what the V stands for), good for you for attending the picket, but don't stand on ceremony and act like your gen really did a damn thing for the next gen. The pilot contract peaked in 2003 and has eroded significantly since then. I do NOT work for AC nor will I ever (no offence meant to the AC pilots), so no I'm not blaming you for why my career isn't what it is. But I'm blaming your generation for degrading the profession and contract for the pilots who are settling in for their turn at a long career there. The audacity to think they will make the same mistake as your gen did tells me how out of touch you and your vintage are. I certainly hope you do your part in correcting your group's mistakes and at least leave this place better than when ya'll ruined it. That would be a respectable legacy to leave vs the "I'm retiring soon so who cares" mentality that I'm hearing about from the senior guys crewing the long hauls with 4 skippers.

Sorry, to comment as I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it's necessary. This is a good example of how NOT to move this industry forward. If you guys want the world class contract that you deserve, you're going to have to bury the hatchet, move on, and figure out how to achieve it. Making sweeping generalization and appropriating blame for past mistakes to a given demographic will do nothing but engender strife and cause disunity.

[Winnikegger]

I'm not so sure about that Bede

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

Unity will come from some self assessment with a dose of truth & reconciliation. Burying the actions of the past is NOT the way

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

Nuff said

[Bede]

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

[rooster]

I’m old.
I don’t do VO.
I stood on the informational picket line outside the terminal in YYZ.
I have walked two picket lines that produced much needed changes to our employment contracts that are still benefitting junior pilots today.
And you think I am the reason your career isn’t what you think it should be?
Our unions have made a lot of big mistakes in the past. My fear is that the next generation, ignorant of history, is going to repeat many of them.

You've GOT to be joking me. This statement tells me everything I need to know about your gen's mentality. This is exactly the reason the junior pilots are fighting to reverse this crap you guys supposedly graced the pilot group with. Your group did NOTHING for the junior pilots except take concession after concession to 'save the operation' and 'capture the flying'. Now your group's actions have degraded the profession for those junior pilots and they are left coming in to clean up the mess of your generation. Good for you for not taking overtime (I don't know what the V stands for), good for you for attending the picket, but don't stand on ceremony and act like your gen really did a damn thing for the next gen. The pilot contract peaked in 2003 and has eroded significantly since then. I do NOT work for AC nor will I ever (no offence meant to the AC pilots), so no I'm not blaming you for why my career isn't what it is. But I'm blaming your generation for degrading the profession and contract for the pilots who are settling in for their turn at a long career there. The audacity to think they will make the same mistake as your gen did tells me how out of touch you and your vintage are. I certainly hope you do your part in correcting your group's mistakes and at least leave this place better than when ya'll ruined it. That would be a respectable legacy to leave vs the "I'm retiring soon so who cares" mentality that I'm hearing about from the senior guys crewing the long hauls with 4 skippers.

Sorry, to comment as I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it's necessary. This is a good example of how NOT to move this industry forward. If you guys want the world class contract that you deserve, you're going to have to bury the hatchet, move on, and figure out how to achieve it. Making sweeping generalization and appropriating blame for past mistakes to a given demographic will do nothing but engender strife and cause disunity.

I don't have a dog in the fight either but the mentality used to be that of the senior guys protecting their interests while screwing junior pilots. There was no unity. Only now has the AC pilot group been as unified as ever, and what the group (a majority made up of those junior pilots) is trying to do is their best attempt at reversing the mistakes of that old group and bettering the place, something the older gen never did for future AC pilots. So on the contrary, unity has never been as strong as it is now. Disunity only exists among the older guys who are working AGAINST the unified group to line their pockets with OT before sailing off into the sunset with the contract they negotiated for the group that really mostly benefited them. Meanwhile, the next gen is working at reversing that and actually making the profession at AC great again. And while I'm not an AC pilot, I'm all for it and the effects of their unity is palpable within the aviation community as a whole.

[rooster]

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

Well that's great. He worked against the group and still gets to reap the benefits. What a great position to be in for those older fellas.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

It's easy to get sucked into blaming the previous generation, or immigrants, or whatever for our lot in life but the true enemy is the corporations and the politicians. The other people are just trying to get theirs which is basic human nature. Keep your eye on the ball and don't let division grow between us. That's exactly what the company wants!

And if all else fails, and we continue on the current course, at least we'll have a ready supply of protein to consume before we have to eat the bugs.

[digits_]

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

Well that's great. He worked against the group and still gets to reap the benefits. What a great position to be in for those older fellas.

You seem to be a glass-half-empty kind of guy?

[Winnikegger]

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

Bede, read his previous posts

We are not making assumptions

However, the question is if he will come around and support this industry movement and put behind the failures of the past without throwing in some fear crap about "repeating the mistakes of the past"

Which is just code to not act like a union. Never have so many been thrown under a bus by so few

[RippleRock]

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

We have a lot of very hard work to do on the unity front, so I understand the frustration 100%.

You don't just "forgive and forget" here, far too much has gone on. We have an entire demographic of "me first" guys and they number in the hundreds. They are doing the bulk of the "extra effort" stuff, and by doing so, are actively undermining our cause. Efforts of not just the newer hires, but those who never were on the same page as them; 24+ year guys and gals like me are being usurped by their selfishness.

We have made some serious errors in the past, not one bigger than allowing "silo bargaining". The concept of negotiating for "groups of pilots" within the collective. When you have just enough "group support", (you think), you put the deal to the Membership for ratification. That left a ton of us disadvantaged, but it was never the Senior pilots. The concept behind ALPA is UNITY from the top to the bottom, no one gets left behind . NO ONE.

ALPA is a relatively new phenomenon here, but an old one in concept....UNITY....the Seniors know exactly what it is and what it means. Anyone hired here before 1998 knows exactly what is happening now, they lived it. They saw how UNITY lifted everyone up and left no one behind. Sixty years before these guys were hired, pilots had been working hard here to unite and worked endlessly to raise the entire group higher.

These guys doing "extra" know exactly what they are doing, usurping unity, but they're doing it anyway. The irony is these guys have taken the most from this career, and are prepared to sacrifice the least.

This entire post is just an observational opinion, cuz you can't actually "say" anything.

[NTPilot]

When someone comes on here and starts talking about "not repeating mistakes of the past", and they are from the past, they better be damn ready to reflect the damage done from the past

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?

The former Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver Chairs and some lost MEC souls from Toronto will likely never be onboard. Odds of them ever being at a picket or rally is near zero.

I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

We have a lot of very hard work to do on the unity front, so I understand the frustration 100%.

You don't just "forgive and forget" here, far too much has gone on. We have an entire demographic of "me first" guys and they number in the hundreds. They are doing the bulk of the "extra effort" stuff, and by doing so, are actively undermining our cause. Efforts of not just the newer hires, but those who never were on the same page as them; 24+ year guys and gals like me are being usurped by their selfishness.

We have made some serious errors in the past, not one bigger than allowing "silo bargaining". The concept of negotiating for "groups of pilots" within the collective. When you have just enough "group support", (you think), you put the deal to the Membership for ratification. That left a ton of us disadvantaged, but it was never the Senior pilots. The concept behind ALPA is UNITY from the top to the bottom, no one gets left behind . NO ONE.

ALPA is a relatively new phenomenon here, but an old one in concept....UNITY....the Seniors know exactly what it is and what it means. Anyone hired here before 1998 knows exactly what is happening now, they lived it. They saw how UNITY lifted everyone up and left no one behind. Sixty years before these guys were hired, pilots had been working hard here to unite and worked endlessly to raise the entire group higher.

These guys doing "extra" know exactly what they are doing, usurping unity, but they're doing it anyway. The irony is these guys have taken the most from this career, and are prepared to sacrifice the least.

This entire post is just an observational opinion, cuz you can't actually "say" anything.

The Pilot unity is great, it’s awesome but I hope it’s not gonna be used and abused at the cost of junior pilots like WJ did !
Seniors getting all good raises juniors be left with nickel and dime!

[cdnavater]

But your assumption is that because the guy was "from the past" that he was involved in these mistakes. Further, even if he was, it there no room for a change of heart?


I'm at WJ. We had pilots who never signed cards and remained in the background working against us. We got this CA secured and got a message from a member of the old guard who was vehemently anti-ALPA. Basically he said we won him over and he signed a card and donned a lanyard.

We have a lot of very hard work to do on the unity front, so I understand the frustration 100%.

You don't just "forgive and forget" here, far too much has gone on. We have an entire demographic of "me first" guys and they number in the hundreds. They are doing the bulk of the "extra effort" stuff, and by doing so, are actively undermining our cause. Efforts of not just the newer hires, but those who never were on the same page as them; 24+ year guys and gals like me are being usurped by their selfishness.

We have made some serious errors in the past, not one bigger than allowing "silo bargaining". The concept of negotiating for "groups of pilots" within the collective. When you have just enough "group support", (you think), you put the deal to the Membership for ratification. That left a ton of us disadvantaged, but it was never the Senior pilots. The concept behind ALPA is UNITY from the top to the bottom, no one gets left behind . NO ONE.

ALPA is a relatively new phenomenon here, but an old one in concept....UNITY....the Seniors know exactly what it is and what it means. Anyone hired here before 1998 knows exactly what is happening now, they lived it. They saw how UNITY lifted everyone up and left no one behind. Sixty years before these guys were hired, pilots had been working hard here to unite and worked endlessly to raise the entire group higher.

These guys doing "extra" know exactly what they are doing, usurping unity, but they're doing it anyway. The irony is these guys have taken the most from this career, and are prepared to sacrifice the least.

This entire post is just an observational opinion, cuz you can't actually "say" anything.

The Pilot unity is great, it’s awesome but I hope it’s not gonna be used and abused at the cost of junior pilots like WJ did !
Seniors getting all good raises juniors be left with nickel and dime!

That doesn’t sound correct, what was the percentage of increase for junior vs senior?

[RippleRock]

Those days are over.

I think he was referring the FOS concept of lowing the FO/RP bar so that no one earned more than a Captain. What a gem that was.

If anyone deserve a significant "correction" it would be the bottom third of this group.

If we just reverted to 2002 wages for every sub-group, adjust for inflation, with obvious contract improvements that are sub-par compared to everyone else, we should be in a great "starting position".

[Bede]

The Pilot unity is great, it’s awesome but I hope it’s not gonna be used and abused at the cost of junior pilots like WJ did !
Seniors getting all good raises juniors be left with nickel and dime!

That's not a fair criticism. The junior pilots did quite well in CA1 with years of service pay and the more senior pilots got less. This time, the senior pilots did better.

[NTPilot]

We have a lot of very hard work to do on the unity front, so I understand the frustration 100%.

You don't just "forgive and forget" here, far too much has gone on. We have an entire demographic of "me first" guys and they number in the hundreds. They are doing the bulk of the "extra effort" stuff, and by doing so, are actively undermining our cause. Efforts of not just the newer hires, but those who never were on the same page as them; 24+ year guys and gals like me are being usurped by their selfishness.

We have made some serious errors in the past, not one bigger than allowing "silo bargaining". The concept of negotiating for "groups of pilots" within the collective. When you have just enough "group support", (you think), you put the deal to the Membership for ratification. That left a ton of us disadvantaged, but it was never the Senior pilots. The concept behind ALPA is UNITY from the top to the bottom, no one gets left behind . NO ONE.

ALPA is a relatively new phenomenon here, but an old one in concept....UNITY....the Seniors know exactly what it is and what it means. Anyone hired here before 1998 knows exactly what is happening now, they lived it. They saw how UNITY lifted everyone up and left no one behind. Sixty years before these guys were hired, pilots had been working hard here to unite and worked endlessly to raise the entire group higher.

These guys doing "extra" know exactly what they are doing, usurping unity, but they're doing it anyway. The irony is these guys have taken the most from this career, and are prepared to sacrifice the least.

This entire post is just an observational opinion, cuz you can't actually "say" anything.

The Pilot unity is great, it’s awesome but I hope it’s not gonna be used and abused at the cost of junior pilots like WJ did !
Seniors getting all good raises juniors be left with nickel and dime!

That doesn’t sound correct, what was the percentage of increase for junior vs senior?

Everyone cross the company at WJ got 15.5% raise. For a junior FO was about 9k/year and for senior captains almost 6 times more than that. Why WJ union advocated for junior FOs that they are making an unfair wages, union said in the meetings that the CApt/FO wage ratio should be 60%, but not only they didn’t stand with FOs, they even increased the wage gap between FO and Cpt,
Keep in mind most of the pilots are very senior in WJ, Ex: the most junior Capt is year 8-9 pilot so this CA would definitely get voted

But this is not the case anymore in AC which most of the pilots are now junior and on flat pay. So I really hope AC union back junior FOs as much as senior pilots

[NTPilot]

The Pilot unity is great, it’s awesome but I hope it’s not gonna be used and abused at the cost of junior pilots like WJ did !
Seniors getting all good raises juniors be left with nickel and dime!

That's not a fair criticism. The junior pilots did quite well in CA1 with years of service pay and the more senior pilots got less. This time, the senior pilots did better.

It doesn’t matter that who did well in which contract. The way the wages was distributed was very unfair and increased the FO Cpt salary gap. Before the contract rectification, I flew with captains that their life worry is having a bigger pool or having problem to pay for their 3rd house or money for the 4th vacation or paying the alimony, while me as an FO have problem paying rent and student loan in Toronto!
The problem is Captains in the union making basically life decisions for FOs

This contract was good for 3 weeks after ratification
Then if needed a new one!

Just wanted to add, I don’t say why Cpt got the most raise, actually it is very well deserved. But the u ion should have fought for a fair raise for the FOs to have an affordable life in most of the bases we have!

[cdnavater]

The Pilot unity is great, it’s awesome but I hope it’s not gonna be used and abused at the cost of junior pilots like WJ did !
Seniors getting all good raises juniors be left with nickel and dime!

That's not a fair criticism. The junior pilots did quite well in CA1 with years of service pay and the more senior pilots got less. This time, the senior pilots did better.

It doesn’t matter that who did well in which contract. The way the wages was distributed was very unfair and increased the FO Cpt salary gap. Before the contract rectification, I flew with captains that their life worry is having a bigger pool or having problem to pay for their 3rd house or money for the 4th vacation or paying the alimony, while me as an FO have problem paying rent and student loan in Toronto!
The problem is Captains in the union making basically life decisions for FOs

This contract was good for 3 weeks after ratification
Then if needed a new one!

Just wanted to add, I don’t say why Cpt got the most raise, actually it is very well deserved. But the u ion should have fought for a fair raise for the FOs to have an affordable life in most of the bases we have!

The problem is you don’t know, this was an 11th hour deal and the union was dealing with government interference that nobody really knows to what level other than the people in the room.
It was a back and forth and maybe a company sticking point, an increase to junior FO wages means longer term increases, most companies would prefer to delay the higher wages as long as possible. I agree that it should be tied to Captain pay, it should be no less than 60% of Captain pay but that is no longer a reality.
Does the FO pay ever end up being 60% of Captain at any YOS on the scale?

[NTPilot]

That's not a fair criticism. The junior pilots did quite well in CA1 with years of service pay and the more senior pilots got less. This time, the senior pilots did better.

It doesn’t matter that who did well in which contract. The way the wages was distributed was very unfair and increased the FO Cpt salary gap. Before the contract rectification, I flew with captains that their life worry is having a bigger pool or having problem to pay for their 3rd house or money for the 4th vacation or paying the alimony, while me as an FO have problem paying rent and student loan in Toronto!
The problem is Captains in the union making basically life decisions for FOs

This contract was good for 3 weeks after ratification
Then if needed a new one!

Just wanted to add, I don’t say why Cpt got the most raise, actually it is very well deserved. But the u ion should have fought for a fair raise for the FOs to have an affordable life in most of the bases we have!

The problem is you don’t know, this was an 11th hour deal and the union was dealing with government interference that nobody really knows to what level other than the people in the room.
It was a back and forth and maybe a company sticking point, an increase to junior FO wages means longer term increases, most companies would prefer to delay the higher wages as long as possible. I agree that it should be tied to Captain pay, it should be no less than 60% of Captain pay but that is no longer a reality.
Does the FO pay ever end up being 60% of Captain at any YOS on the scale?

All captains keep saying 11th hours. The WJ union told us we might go on strike from a year ago, I backed up that union, I was prepared for strike, for a better wage I was promised, for closing gap between Capt and FO that I was promised. The union tremendously increased the FO Cpt wage ration with the new CA.

I have heard all these
The most junior captain I flew with last week took him 9 years to upgrade. So I’m promised a long term gain in 10 years almost which I need it right now!
I was just talking with another FO, he was saying all the captain’s problem is to buy a new Boat or a brand new grill or a new truck. While an FO cannot have affordable life for his family in toronto or Vancouver with this wage!

They are all in the past
No complain (I’ve learnt as a Canadian pilot I’m not allowed to make complain or ask for a fair livable wages)
Hope we can get a bit raise for FO in 4 years again if the senior captains in union would let that happen!
CA 2 is a done deal in the past.

I’m saying I hope pilot unity in AC is stronger and their union don’t use the junior pilots for the cost of seniors get big raises like WJ union did!

Always in Fair Unity

[cdnavater]

It doesn’t matter that who did well in which contract. The way the wages was distributed was very unfair and increased the FO Cpt salary gap. Before the contract rectification, I flew with captains that their life worry is having a bigger pool or having problem to pay for their 3rd house or money for the 4th vacation or paying the alimony, while me as an FO have problem paying rent and student loan in Toronto!
The problem is Captains in the union making basically life decisions for FOs

This contract was good for 3 weeks after ratification
Then if needed a new one!

Just wanted to add, I don’t say why Cpt got the most raise, actually it is very well deserved. But the u ion should have fought for a fair raise for the FOs to have an affordable life in most of the bases we have!

The problem is you don’t know, this was an 11th hour deal and the union was dealing with government interference that nobody really knows to what level other than the people in the room.
It was a back and forth and maybe a company sticking point, an increase to junior FO wages means longer term increases, most companies would prefer to delay the higher wages as long as possible. I agree that it should be tied to Captain pay, it should be no less than 60% of Captain pay but that is no longer a reality.
Does the FO pay ever end up being 60% of Captain at any YOS on the scale?

All captains keep saying 11th hours. The WJ union told us we might go on strike from a year ago, I backed up that union, I was prepared for strike, for a better wage I was promised, for closing gap between Capt and FO that I was promised. The union tremendously increased the FO Cpt wage ration with the new CA.

I have heard all these
The most junior captain I flew with last week took him 9 years to upgrade. So I’m promised a long term gain in 10 years almost which I need it right now!
I was just talking with another FO, he was saying all the captain’s problem is to buy a new Boat or a brand new grill or a new truck. While an FO cannot have affordable life for his family in toronto or Vancouver with this wage!

They are all in the past
No complain (I’ve learnt as a Canadian pilot I’m not allowed to make complain or ask for a fair livable wages)
Hope we can get a bit raise for FO in 4 years again if the senior captains in union would let that happen!
CA 2 is a done deal in the past.

I’m saying I hope pilot unity in AC is stronger and their union don’t use the junior pilots for the cost of seniors get big raises like WJ union did!

Always in Fair Unity

NTPilot,
I don’t discount your feelings as I’m sure with the promises made, you had much higher expectations but realize those Captains made less than you make now for a long time, you will far out earn many of them over your career.
Many of them did not get YOS when they went left seat after 10 years, this will help them catch up on lost earnings from those previous contract deficits.
Now, I thought the starting wage went from about 60g to almost 90g, if that’s the case, that is a 50% wage increase. If it is not the case, please correct me.
I’ve been there for sure, our 2010 contract had the biggest increase at the bottom 3 years and last 3, everything thing in between was a decreasing percentage until my YOS and then steady increase until it maxed out, I was in the YOS that had the smallest percentage increase, I remember thinking WTF. I did however benefit from it over the course of the contract and now I’m on the top pay scale, which hasn’t seen an increase other than 2% since 2010. Life is unfair at times but it is what you make of it, be thankful that at some point you will make those wages and get your YOS when you move left.
Also, please take this the way it is intended, Captains were where you are, not able to afford much, so if the want to buy a third house or 300,000 motor home or big pool, well they earned it! Jealousy is ugly, I earned everything thing I own and sacrificed many years to get where we are, enjoying our later stages. Would it have been nice to just jump in making 150g from day 1 and would I be in a better position, absolutely but that’s not how this career works.

[NTPilot]

The problem is you don’t know, this was an 11th hour deal and the union was dealing with government interference that nobody really knows to what level other than the people in the room.
It was a back and forth and maybe a company sticking point, an increase to junior FO wages means longer term increases, most companies would prefer to delay the higher wages as long as possible. I agree that it should be tied to Captain pay, it should be no less than 60% of Captain pay but that is no longer a reality.
Does the FO pay ever end up being 60% of Captain at any YOS on the scale?

All captains keep saying 11th hours. The WJ union told us we might go on strike from a year ago, I backed up that union, I was prepared for strike, for a better wage I was promised, for closing gap between Capt and FO that I was promised. The union tremendously increased the FO Cpt wage ration with the new CA.

I have heard all these
The most junior captain I flew with last week took him 9 years to upgrade. So I’m promised a long term gain in 10 years almost which I need it right now!
I was just talking with another FO, he was saying all the captain’s problem is to buy a new Boat or a brand new grill or a new truck. While an FO cannot have affordable life for his family in toronto or Vancouver with this wage!


They are all in the past
No complain (I’ve learnt as a Canadian pilot I’m not allowed to make complain or ask for a fair livable wages)
Hope we can get a bit raise for FO in 4 years again if the senior captains in union would let that happen!
CA 2 is a done deal in the past.

I’m saying I hope pilot unity in AC is stronger and their union don’t use the junior pilots for the cost of seniors get big raises like WJ union did!

Always in Fair Unity

NTPilot,
I don’t discount your feelings as I’m sure with the promises made, you had much higher expectations but realize those Captains made less than you make now for a long time, you will far out earn many of them over your career.
Many of them did not get YOS when they went left seat after 10 years, this will help them catch up on lost earnings from those previous contract deficits.
Now, I thought the starting wage went from about 60g to almost 90g, if that’s the case, that is a 50% wage increase. If it is not the case, please correct me.
I’ve been there for sure, our 2010 contract had the biggest increase at the bottom 3 years and last 3, everything thing in between was a decreasing percentage until my YOS and then steady increase until it maxed out, I was in the YOS that had the smallest percentage increase, I remember thinking WTF. I did however benefit from it over the course of the contract and now I’m on the top pay scale, which hasn’t seen an increase other than 2% since 2010. Life is unfair at times but it is what you make of it, be thankful that at some point you will make those wages and get your YOS when you move left.
Also, please take this the way it is intended, Captains were where you are, not able to afford much, so if the want to buy a third house or 300,000 motor home or big pool, well they earned it! Jealousy is ugly, I earned everything thing I own and sacrificed many years to get where we are, enjoying our later stages. Would it have been nice to just jump in making 150g from day 1 and would I be in a better position, absolutely but that’s not how this career works.

Exactly, that was the whole point of CA2 to change the way the wages were distributing before,
I don’t say why cpt got so much raise, I’m saying the raise union got for FOs is terrible. Yes the Captain deserve the raise 100% but that FO seating next to you supporting you deserve some too.

The year one FO salary went from 65k to 74k
Even a Porter FO makes more than I don on the jet
That’s the base salary, 15.5% flat raise for everyone.
The problem is again when we talk with senior guy they all say when I was junior I was making this much. Well that was many years ago, just because senior guys went through all those years doesn’t mean new pilots want to or I have to go through that just because senior ones did! This is a very old fashion mentality.

Respectfully, I’m talking about a livable wage and you talk about jealousy. No it’s not jealousy it’s called I wanna be paid so I can pay my rent and provide for my family.

We can have all these conversations. You still make the fancy salary ( which I totally support) and I’m still button of the list and obviously I cannot change anything.

I just try to remember in 20 years, I have to back up my new FO pay raises and not be selfish and think about my new boat lol

In Canadian aviation we don’t say why I don’t make as much as that pilot
We say why that pilot doesn’t make as less as me!

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Guys, you have your own forum.

[hithere]

Yes but on that forum can you be anonymous?

[Canadaflyer46]

The fact that WestJet's union settled for a 15% raise in the current economic climate does not bode well for AC guys. We had the exact same rhetoric too. We even has Alaska union leaders having us all chant "we will make them". It's quite embarassing now in hindsight, considering on what we settled on in order to remove Swoop (which the execs wanted gone anyway). Really hoping you guys can do a hell of a lot better than us at WJ. Give 'em hell!

[Fanblade]

That's not a fair criticism. The junior pilots did quite well in CA1 with years of service pay and the more senior pilots got less. This time, the senior pilots did better.

It doesn’t matter that who did well in which contract. The way the wages was distributed was very unfair and increased the FO Cpt salary gap. Before the contract rectification, I flew with captains that their life worry is having a bigger pool or having problem to pay for their 3rd house or money for the 4th vacation or paying the alimony, while me as an FO have problem paying rent and student loan in Toronto!
The problem is Captains in the union making basically life decisions for FOs

This contract was good for 3 weeks after ratification
Then if needed a new one!

Just wanted to add, I don’t say why Cpt got the most raise, actually it is very well deserved. But the u ion should have fought for a fair raise for the FOs to have an affordable life in most of the bases we have!

The problem is you don’t know, this was an 11th hour deal and the union was dealing with government interference that nobody really knows to what level other than the people in the room.
It was a back and forth and maybe a company sticking point, an increase to junior FO wages means longer term increases, most companies would prefer to delay the higher wages as long as possible. I agree that it should be tied to Captain pay, it should be no less than 60% of Captain pay but that is no longer a reality.
Does the FO pay ever end up being 60% of Captain at any YOS on the scale?

There was no government interference.

The westjet deal was a good leapfrog over AC pilots. Remember it took a decade of US carriers leapfrogging each other to recover from their bankruptcy losses. Westjet, a non legacy carrier leapfrogging by the amount they did, is not insignificant.

My biggest disappointment with the WJ deal was the the FO percent of Captain pay. It is far too low. 8-10% too low.

Not saying the AC side is much better currently as it is in the 64-65% range at the moment after being lowered in 2012 from 68%.

North American standard was always very close in this regard prior to 2012. The US carriers are all still in the 68-70% range at year 12.