Air Canada pilots stand “UNITED”

[Fanblade]

The fact that WestJet's union settled for a 15% raise in the current economic climate does not bode well for AC guys. We had the exact same rhetoric too. We even has Alaska union leaders having us all chant "we will make them". It's quite embarassing now in hindsight, considering on what we settled on in order to remove Swoop (which the execs wanted gone anyway). Really hoping you guys can do a hell of a lot better than us at WJ. Give 'em hell!

Leapfrog.

Our pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation to today, are a significant raise above WJ wages. Not all the way to a North American standard but I can’t see the AC pilots accepting less than they were worth 20 years ago.

[RippleRock]

The fact that WestJet's union settled for a 15% raise in the current economic climate does not bode well for AC guys. We had the exact same rhetoric too. We even has Alaska union leaders having us all chant "we will make them". It's quite embarassing now in hindsight, considering on what we settled on in order to remove Swoop (which the execs wanted gone anyway). Really hoping you guys can do a hell of a lot better than us at WJ. Give 'em hell!

Leapfrog.

Our pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation to today, are a significant raise above WJ wages. Not all the way to a North American standard but I can’t see the AC pilots accepting less than they were worth 20 years ago.

We'd better not. 48% is the MINIMUM to "reset our buying power" to a wage 22 years old. This, along with contract enhancements and language clarity had better be our line in the sand.We have had ENOUGH taken from us. It's past time for them to give BACK what we have been forced to give.

Not one thing should be called a "raise" until --at minimum-- we are offered a Cost of Living adjustment on our 2002 wage package. Inflation has been drowning us for 20 years, we NEED AIR. 48% DON'T BUDGE.



FWIW, this Company should not be able to strip mine our contract, hold us at WAY below COL, pocket the windfall savings on pilot labor for two decades, then 20 years later, give SOME meager percentage back call it a raise. That's the definition of unfair.

48% uplift = 2002 wages with NO RAISE. Anything less = WHY?

HOLD THE LINE.

[Bede]

Can someone post the AC 2002 wage scales? Are there any other losses in there that need to be accounted for? (Vacation, training outside the block, days worked etc?)

[Dockjock]

I want to speak on one specific topic and it is FO % of captain pay.

It’s fine where it is.
Don’t conflate the flat pay problem with FO pay as a whole.
Why do pilots voluntarily stay as FO for decades; it isn’t because the pay is too low.
Why are Captain positions being filled by some of the least experienced pilots in the airline; again not because FO pay is too low.
Some airlines can’t FILL their Captain positions. FO pay too low?

Rather it is Captain pay (differential over FO) that is too low. The incentive for the most experienced pilots to become Captain is broken. The combo of poor schedule and not enough DIFFERENTIAL in pay from FO is what creates this really bad imbalance. There shouldn’t be Captain vacancies being filled by 3YOS pilots when we have 25-yr FO’s, except those who have been deemed permanently unsuitable.

Flat pay is the culprit, but at airlines where the lowest experienced pilots are filling junior Captain vacancies, it is Captain pay which is too low.

[RippleRock]

I want to speak on one specific topic and it is FO % of captain pay.

It’s fine where it is.
Don’t conflate the flat pay problem with FO pay as a whole.
Why do pilots voluntarily stay as FO for decades; it isn’t because the pay is too low.
Why are Captain positions being filled by some of the least experienced pilots in the airline; again not because FO pay is too low.
Some airlines can’t FILL their Captain positions. FO pay too low?

Rather it is Captain pay (differential over FO) that is too low. The incentive for the most experienced pilots to become Captain is broken. The combo of poor schedule and not enough DIFFERENTIAL in pay from FO is what creates this really bad imbalance. There shouldn’t be Captain vacancies being filled by 3YOS pilots when we have 25-yr FO’s, except those who have been deemed permanently unsuitable.

Flat pay is the culprit, but at airlines where the lowest experienced pilots are filling junior Captain vacancies, it is Captain pay which is too low.

I doubt the pay "differential" is the problem. For the most part it's low DBM (hours per day min credit) that allows the creation of abysmally "low productivity" blocks. Another factor is the DC pension. "Earn as much as you can as fast as you can" has pilots bidding the left seat that normally would just stay put in the right seat for longer periods.

5 hours MINIMUM daily credit needs to be used. Most other comparator airlines have it or more. FORCE productivity, and the quality of life will improve enough to make moving to the left seat a viable option for those interested in keeping their family intact. Right now there are few ways to "hide" from the lack of productivity. The vast number of 30 hour layovers on the narrowbody are a key indicator. The "16 day cap" on narrowbody flying is forcing the PBS computer to run till it overheats. It's constantly running "destacks" and stripping awarded flying out of the senior blockholders month, creating a mess of low productivity flying months for nearly everyone.

5 hours min credit per day will go miles towards "righting" the Captain list with respect to seniority. It will make life better for everyone. A few more things (among many others) that are needed badly are, proper vacation credit, full pay Deadhead, increased per diems, tighter contract language overall, and a non-punitive commuter policy that sees the end of jacked up user fees and service charges. Pilots south of the border can travel on passes for $5 a leg, here its $45 to sit in a jumpseat. Insane gouging. Not everyone can afford to uproot their families and move to some of the most expensive cities in North America that AC calls "bases". Commuting is a fact of life here that has been disregarded as "your problem alone" far too long.

[cdnavater]

It doesn’t matter that who did well in which contract. The way the wages was distributed was very unfair and increased the FO Cpt salary gap. Before the contract rectification, I flew with captains that their life worry is having a bigger pool or having problem to pay for their 3rd house or money for the 4th vacation or paying the alimony, while me as an FO have problem paying rent and student loan in Toronto!
The problem is Captains in the union making basically life decisions for FOs

This contract was good for 3 weeks after ratification
Then if needed a new one!

Just wanted to add, I don’t say why Cpt got the most raise, actually it is very well deserved. But the u ion should have fought for a fair raise for the FOs to have an affordable life in most of the bases we have!

The problem is you don’t know, this was an 11th hour deal and the union was dealing with government interference that nobody really knows to what level other than the people in the room.
It was a back and forth and maybe a company sticking point, an increase to junior FO wages means longer term increases, most companies would prefer to delay the higher wages as long as possible. I agree that it should be tied to Captain pay, it should be no less than 60% of Captain pay but that is no longer a reality.
Does the FO pay ever end up being 60% of Captain at any YOS on the scale?

There was no government interference.

The westjet deal was a good leapfrog over AC pilots. Remember it took a decade of US carriers leapfrogging each other to recover from their bankruptcy losses. Westjet, a non legacy carrier leapfrogging by the amount they did, is not insignificant.

My biggest disappointment with the WJ deal was the the FO percent of Captain pay. It is far too low. 8-10% too low.

Not saying the AC side is much better currently as it is in the 64-65% range at the moment after being lowered in 2012 from 68%.

North American standard was always very close in this regard prior to 2012. The US carriers are all still in the 68-70% range at year 12.

Neither you or I know what was said but I do recall the minister making some comments that came across as interference.
I found this in a 30 secs search.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6847023

“On Wednesday, Transport Minister Omar Alghabra encouraged the two sides to reach a resolution, noting Labour Minister Seamus O'Regan and a mediator — Peter Simpson, who heads the federal mediation service — are on the ground.

"I do not want to put my finger on the scale," Alghabra told reporters in Ottawa. "Ultimately, the biggest obligation is to make sure that they deliver the service that they sold to customers”

[futboler14]

53F00F57-73CB-4CFE-99A6-A39FE6FE3B53.jpg (219.95 KiB) Viewed 3734 times

E571D9D2-39DF-4E8C-80BD-888EE87FFDE3.jpg (248.2 KiB) Viewed 3734 times

4B6B8B8F-ACA2-4075-BC5D-505535D6B256.png (753.19 KiB) Viewed 3734 times

[NTPilot]

I want to speak on one specific topic and it is FO % of captain pay.

It’s fine where it is.
Don’t conflate the flat pay problem with FO pay as a whole.
Why do pilots voluntarily stay as FO for decades; it isn’t because the pay is too low.
Why are Captain positions being filled by some of the least experienced pilots in the airline; again not because FO pay is too low.
Some airlines can’t FILL their Captain positions. FO pay too low?

Rather it is Captain pay (differential over FO) that is too low. The incentive for the most experienced pilots to become Captain is broken. The combo of poor schedule and not enough DIFFERENTIAL in pay from FO is what creates this really bad imbalance. There shouldn’t be Captain vacancies being filled by 3YOS pilots when we have 25-yr FO’s, except those who have been deemed permanently unsuitable.

Flat pay is the culprit, but at airlines where the lowest experienced pilots are filling junior Captain vacancies, it is Captain pay which is too low.

The fact Captain pay is low at AC is correct, but FO is even worst
with keeping the FO on flat pay and increasing the cpt pay you can just make this problem worst.
Why does a year 2 or 3 FO upgrades so fast to the left seat?
Would he do that if he was getting paid enough? When you are basically living in poverty for 4 years then the only way of getting out of it is fast upgrading.

Now if that senior 25 FO is comfortable with what he’s making but is having a great schedule and work life balance, why would he give that up.

The solution for making 25y FO to upgrade is not keeping the junior FO on flat pay. You provide a scheduling that senior FO wants.

Many ways to do it right way,

There’s social bidding many companies use and has very high satisfaction rate. Rouge used to have it and everyone loved it and upgrade was not a problem for senior FOs.
You can optimize schedule trading like many US company do and WJ started doing it too , (begging of the month all pilots through their pairing in a pool and everyone pick what they want)
Any many more other option to solve this problem but keeping the FO on flat pay is non of them

[co-joe]

If you plug any of those numbers from futboler14's chart into an inflation calculator it's eye popping. First year 737 Captain in 2003 paid $254.54/ h, which would be $392.57 today??? (not the $212.23 that it currently pays)

[cjp]

If you plug any of those numbers from futboler14's chart into an inflation calculator it's eye popping. First year 737 Captain in 2003 paid $254.54/ h, which would be $392.57 today??? (not the $212.23 that it currently pays)

You adjusted for inflation, on the inflation table. It's about year out, granted. 255-300k (Day/Night) for a 3rd year Captain would be pretty decent.

Not factoring for exchange, that's not too far off from US wages dollar to dollar - obviously adjusted for exchange - still 40-50% lagging on the US majors.

[airway]

The fact that WestJet's union settled for a 15% raise in the current economic climate does not bode well for AC guys. We had the exact same rhetoric too. We even has Alaska union leaders having us all chant "we will make them". It's quite embarassing now in hindsight, considering on what we settled on in order to remove Swoop (which the execs wanted gone anyway). Really hoping you guys can do a hell of a lot better than us at WJ. Give 'em hell!

Leapfrog.

Our pre bankruptcy wages adjusted for inflation to today, are a significant raise above WJ wages. Not all the way to a North American standard but I can’t see the AC pilots accepting less than they were worth 20 years ago.

We'd better not. 48% is the MINIMUM to "reset our buying power" to a wage 22 years old. This, along with contract enhancements and language clarity had better be our line in the sand.We have had ENOUGH taken from us. It's past time for them to give BACK what we have been forced to give.

Not one thing should be called a "raise" until --at minimum-- we are offered a Cost of Living adjustment on our 2002 wage package. Inflation has been drowning us for 20 years, we NEED AIR. 48% DON'T BUDGE.



FWIW, this Company should not be able to strip mine our contract, hold us at WAY below COL, pocket the windfall savings on pilot labor for two decades, then 20 years later, give SOME meager percentage back call it a raise. That's the definition of unfair.

48% uplift = 2002 wages with NO RAISE. Anything less = WHY?

HOLD THE LINE.

According to the Bank of Canada, Inflation since 2002 is 57%. Maybe you should aim higher?

https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/relat ... alculator/





.

[RippleRock]

If you plug any of those numbers from futboler14's chart into an inflation calculator it's eye popping. First year 737 Captain in 2003 paid $254.54/ h, which would be $392.57 today??? (not the $212.23 that it currently pays)

You adjusted for inflation, on the inflation table. It's about year out, granted. 255-300k (Day/Night) for a 3rd year Captain would be pretty decent.

Not factoring for exchange, that's not too far off from US wages dollar to dollar - obviously adjusted for inflation - still 40-50% lagging on the US majors.

"Decent" isn't -just keeping up- with inflation. Decent would have been moderate gains on top of that. We ALL need our expectations reset in a bad way.

When I was hired here in 2000, I had every expectation that the wages would at MINIMUM keep up with inflation. Otherwise what was the point??? Why would any sane person enter a professionally licensed career that had exponentially diminishing returns??? Think about that.

We are in a FAR WORSE position than anyone could ever have predicted. The question is, what are we going to do about it.

We are about to release our Q3 numbers, and they will be very good. The money is there, and it has been for the last 5 years at least. Are you going to stand up and demand that a wage correction be done to right this career??

[cjp]

If you plug any of those numbers from futboler14's chart into an inflation calculator it's eye popping. First year 737 Captain in 2003 paid $254.54/ h, which would be $392.57 today??? (not the $212.23 that it currently pays)

You adjusted for inflation, on the inflation table. It's about year out, granted. 255-300k (Day/Night) for a 3rd year Captain would be pretty decent.

Not factoring for exchange, that's not too far off from US wages dollar to dollar - obviously adjusted for EXCHANGE!! - still 40-50% lagging on the US majors.

"Decent" isn't -just keeping up- with inflation. Decent would have been moderate gains on top of that. We ALL need our expectations reset in a bad way.

When I was hired here in 2000, I had every expectation that the wages would at MINIMUM keep up with inflation. Otherwise what was the point??? Why would any sane person enter a professionally licensed career that had exponentially diminishing returns??? Think about that.

We are in a FAR WORSE position than anyone could ever have predicted. The question is, what are we going to do about it.

We are about to release our Q3 numbers, and they will be very good. The money is there, and it has been for the last 5 years at least. Are you going to stand up and demand that a wage correction be done to right this career??

Totally agree, inflation shouldn't be a successful negotiation. I would be stoked if you hit dollar for dollar after the exchange rate with any of the U.S majors.

I'll leave it there.

[GTEO]

Glad to hear that commuting is a topic of discussion in the current negotiations, RippleRock. Do you know how much emphasis is being put on this right now, and what sort of gains the union hopes to achieve in this regard? It seems like it would be in the company’s best interest if they hope to appeal to 1000 more experienced pilots in the near future, especially in this labour market. As others have said, there are medevac companies in Canada that currently offer paid commutes for pilots who choose to live away from base, so hopefully AC will step things up somewhat. A two flight rule and cheaper airfares would be an excellent start. A lot of qualified pilots are hesitant to consider AC due to the prospect of commuting, so making it easier for them might change their minds.

[Core]

In order to lure me away from my current job which I very much enjoy, I would need to see:

Commuting policy
0 or 1 year entry level pay, no more.
17 days a month, every month, is way too much. Across the board the roster needs to be at least 2 days less per month on all types. 3-5 would be better.
Pay scale across the board needs to go up 40%ish.

This is just what I see as an outsider. Fix this stuff and you'll have no problem getting another 1000 guys, who aren't just the super juniors.

[rookiepilot]

AC pilot is trending on Twitter today. And not to do with compensation..... Take a look.

[CaptDukeNukem]

AC pilot is trending on Twitter today. And not to do with compensation..... Take a look.

This one may need its own thread.

[rookiepilot]

AC pilot is trending on Twitter today. And not to do with compensation..... Take a look.

This one may need its own thread.

Go ahead. This is YOUR peer group I note.

[CaptDukeNukem]

AC pilot is trending on Twitter today. And not to do with compensation..... Take a look.

This one may need its own thread.

Go ahead. This is YOUR peer group I note.

My peer group? He’s got the AC hat on.

[flying4dollars]

AC pilot is trending on Twitter today. And not to do with compensation..... Take a look.

This one may need its own thread.

Go ahead. This is YOUR peer group I note.

Uhh, what??

[rudder]

Auto workers in Canada:

“ The contract includes base hourly wage increases of nearly 20 per cent for production and 25 per cent for skilled trades, a faster timeline for workers to reach the top wage tier, improvements to pensions and two new paid holidays.”

[RippleRock]

Auto workers in Canada:

“ The contract includes base hourly wage increases of nearly 20 per cent for production and 25 per cent for skilled trades, a faster timeline for workers to reach the top wage tier, improvements to pensions and two new paid holidays.”

A group putting the brakes on inflation. Good on 'em. But it's NO RAISE.

If inflation holds steady over Justin Trudeau's reign for two more years, ALL THEIR 25% UPLIFT will be consumed by 2025.
2020-2025 will have a compounding COL equating to roughly 28%.

The "inflation inferno" going on around us has no mercy, and is incinerating everyone in it's path.

[Inverted2]

Auto workers in Canada:

“ The contract includes base hourly wage increases of nearly 20 per cent for production and 25 per cent for skilled trades, a faster timeline for workers to reach the top wage tier, improvements to pensions and two new paid holidays.”

A group putting the brakes on inflation. Good on 'em. But it's NO RAISE.

If inflation holds steady over Justin Trudeau's reign for two more years, ALL THEIR 25% UPLIFT will be consumed by 2025.
2020-2025 will have a compounding COL equating to roughly 28%.

The "inflation inferno" going on around us has no mercy, and is incinerating everyone in it's path.

Yep, and those autoworker raises will be passed on to you and I in the price of new cars. No, just you. I’ve never purchased a new car. So yes,more inflation. Don’t forget Justin has been keeping the money printer going as well so the currency devaluates….

[RippleRock]

Well, the same damn thing happened under Pierre Trudeau.

Canadians sure have an appetite for screwing their country's economy. And no one saw it coming by electing a snowboard instructor "flake" with a family legacy of hyper-inflation to lead the country. Brilliant.

Yes Polly will win in 2025, but sure as $hit Canada will elect another "progressive" tax and spend government four years later.

Get out while you can.

[RippleRock]

Well, the same damn thing happened under Pierre Trudeau.

Canadians sure have an appetite for screwing their country's economy. And no one saw it coming by electing a snowboard instructor "flake" with a family legacy of hyper-inflation to lead the country. Brilliant.

Yes Polly will win in 2025, but sure as $hit Canada will elect another "progressive" tax and spend government four years later.

Get out while you can.