I moved this over to the training section to avoid thread creep
My personal observation is very few instructors know how to properly enter a snag themselves, so it is no surprise that students don’t either.
This is how I teach students how to enter a defect.
1 ) make sure you actually have a defect and not something that isn’t working because you don’t know how it works. Before embarrassing yourself check the POH. Installed equipment should have a POH supplement. Radio snags can be self inflicted so do some homework.
2) Go back in the Journey Log and see if your snag has happened before.
3) Discuss the issue with a maintenance person, not the dispatcher.
4) When writing the snag describe exactly what you see or happened. Don’t just say XX is US
Examples of good snags
a) Comm #1 ATC reports TX unreadable, RX normal
b) Found left main gear tyre with a 2 X 3 inch flat spot with cord showing in centre
c) Vacuum gauge indicated 7 psi which is above green arc
The sad reality is some flight schools don’t want you to snag an airplane because then they may have to take it off the line and loose money.
If you are flying with an instructor and you see a defect they must enter it as they are PIC. If they don’t ask why. The answer better be more than “ I don’t want to” or “the boss doesn’t like it when we snag airplanes”
If you are PIC entering a snag is required by regulation. It is also important because the pilot flying the airplane after you needs to know there is a defect.
How to write a Snag
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: How to write a Snag
1) Yes
2) Helpful for troubleshooting, especially if a previous solution was applied unsuccessfully.
3) This depends on if you are referring to a flight school or something else. In the 705 world, it's a legal requirement to inform (Type A) dispatch of snags. But by all means, discuss with maintenance in depth.
4) Yes
2) Helpful for troubleshooting, especially if a previous solution was applied unsuccessfully.
3) This depends on if you are referring to a flight school or something else. In the 705 world, it's a legal requirement to inform (Type A) dispatch of snags. But by all means, discuss with maintenance in depth.
4) Yes
Re: How to write a Snag
IMO if you've verified 1), then you put it on the book. Everything else can help to troubleshoot, but it inevitably leads to a lot of pressure to not put it in the book.
It's a whole other discussion if you call maintenance: 'Hey, the plane is snagged, do you need help fixing or troubleshooting the issue?'
vs
'Hey, I"m about to snag the plane for XYZ, how should I go about it'
- 'that's minor, just fly it back'
Whether or not a snag has happened before should have no bearing on you snagging the plane again. It's important for tracking and for troubleshooting, but not to determine if you're snagging the plane or not.
"Oh no, don't snag it, then it's a recurring defect and we won't be able to quickly sign it out again"
- "Well maybe you should have properly fixed it the first 3 times it happened"
If you're trying to be nice, you'll end up being perceived as a bigger a-hole than when you would have just put it in the book.
Even an 'oops I made a mistake, there's nothing wrong'-snag is no major problem at a maintenance base.
It's a whole other discussion if you call maintenance: 'Hey, the plane is snagged, do you need help fixing or troubleshooting the issue?'
vs
'Hey, I"m about to snag the plane for XYZ, how should I go about it'
- 'that's minor, just fly it back'
Whether or not a snag has happened before should have no bearing on you snagging the plane again. It's important for tracking and for troubleshooting, but not to determine if you're snagging the plane or not.
"Oh no, don't snag it, then it's a recurring defect and we won't be able to quickly sign it out again"
- "Well maybe you should have properly fixed it the first 3 times it happened"
If you're trying to be nice, you'll end up being perceived as a bigger a-hole than when you would have just put it in the book.
Even an 'oops I made a mistake, there's nothing wrong'-snag is no major problem at a maintenance base.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: How to write a Snag
Agreed about #2. It should have no effect on whether or not you snag the plane.
Snag = logbook entry. End of story.
Snag = logbook entry. End of story.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: How to write a Snag
True but if you are a student or low time pilot, pointing out the snag has happened before gives you ammunition if you get push back.
The PRM “should” track recurring snags but I have seen numerous examples where it was missed.
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torquey401
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Re: How to write a Snag
CARS STD 625.10 Information Note. Advisory in nature, but good information.
625.10 Unserviceable Equipment - Aircraft without a Minimum Equipment List
Information note:
The following provisions, although considered advisory in nature, have been included in the main body of these standards due to their importance. They are not standards.
(i) CAR 605 requires that all equipment listed in the applicable airworthiness standard, and all equipment required for the particular flight or type of operation, must be functioning correctly prior to flight. The requirement for a particular system or component to be operative can be determined by reference to the type certificate data sheet, operating regulations or the applicable equipment list in the aircraft operating manual.
(ii) Although the responsibility for deciding whether an aircraft may be operated with outstanding defects rests with the pilot in command, an error in this determination could result in a contravention under these regulations. It is for this reason that the regulations require that full details of all defects be entered in the journey log. The pilot in command must be fully aware of the condition of the aircraft if he is to make the correct decision regarding the intended flight. The manner in which the pilot makes this decision, however, will vary according to the type of operation of the aircraft. In the following paragraphs, private and commercial aircraft are considered separately.
(iii) Defects (e.g. buckling, cracks, extensive corrosion) of the skin or structure of the aircraft or of the pressure hull of a pressurized aircraft beyond the safe limits established by the manufacturer in his maintenance manual or other approved maintenance instructions will render that aircraft unfit for safe operation.
(iv) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter not operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft not operated pursuant to Part VII, the pilot must review the log prior to flight and decide whether any of the defects recorded affect the airworthiness of the aircraft. Reference may be made to the type certificate data sheet, the aircraft operating manual, or any list provided by the aircraft manufacturer respecting equipment that must be operational for the intended flight. The Minister may also approve a minimum equipment list for use by an owner. Any or all of these may indicate that particular items of equipment are mandatory.
(v) In the case of an aircraft operated pursuant to CAR 604, specific instructions must be provided in the operations manual to facilitate this assessment.
(vi) Where in doubt, the pilot should obtain the advice of an AME. This is best done by requesting the AME to inspect the defective system or component to determine its effect upon the aircraft's fitness for flight. By following this procedure and obtaining the AME's signature in the log book in the form of a maintenance release, the pilot will be able to demonstrate, if necessary, that he has taken all reasonable steps to ensure the airworthiness of the aircraft. Inspection of defective systems by an AME, although advisable, is not a legal requirment. As stated earlier, it is the pilot's responsibility to determine whether the aircraft is fit for the intended flight.
(vii) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft operated pursuant to Part VII, it is not always practicable for the pilot to personally undertake all actions required to determine the airworthiness status, because of the high levels of utilization, complexity of the aircraft, and the limited time available for all the various aspects of pre-flight preparation required. A common standard must be applied to all aircraft of a fleet. For these reasons, the flight training unit and the air operator regulations require the establishment of a formal system for the control of defects.
(viii) Such systems provide a greater degree of confidence that the airworthiness effects of defects have been taken into account, and ensure consistency of application of the standards. They also set limits on the periods for which the repair of a defect may be deferred. For aircraft operated in commercial air service, this system is normally based on the use of Minimum Equipment Lists (MEL), thereby providing the pilot with a sound basis on which to make his decision regarding the intended flight.
(ix) The final decision, however, still rests with the pilot. A pilot who accepts an aircraft with defects, the repair of which has been deferred in accordance with an approved system, has a good defence against any possible charge of flying an unairworthy aircraft, whereas a pilot who undertakes a flight with an aircraft that is not in compliance with the approved system to control the deferral of repairs to defects commits an offence.
(x) The complexity of a system used to control the deferral of repairs to defects will vary according to the type of aircraft operated and the size and nature of the operation and may include reference to an approved minimum equipment list and/or configuration deviation list. In all cases the control system must be described in the air operator's maintenance control manual. Once approved, compliance with those procedures is mandatory.
625.10 Unserviceable Equipment - Aircraft without a Minimum Equipment List
Information note:
The following provisions, although considered advisory in nature, have been included in the main body of these standards due to their importance. They are not standards.
(i) CAR 605 requires that all equipment listed in the applicable airworthiness standard, and all equipment required for the particular flight or type of operation, must be functioning correctly prior to flight. The requirement for a particular system or component to be operative can be determined by reference to the type certificate data sheet, operating regulations or the applicable equipment list in the aircraft operating manual.
(ii) Although the responsibility for deciding whether an aircraft may be operated with outstanding defects rests with the pilot in command, an error in this determination could result in a contravention under these regulations. It is for this reason that the regulations require that full details of all defects be entered in the journey log. The pilot in command must be fully aware of the condition of the aircraft if he is to make the correct decision regarding the intended flight. The manner in which the pilot makes this decision, however, will vary according to the type of operation of the aircraft. In the following paragraphs, private and commercial aircraft are considered separately.
(iii) Defects (e.g. buckling, cracks, extensive corrosion) of the skin or structure of the aircraft or of the pressure hull of a pressurized aircraft beyond the safe limits established by the manufacturer in his maintenance manual or other approved maintenance instructions will render that aircraft unfit for safe operation.
(iv) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter not operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft not operated pursuant to Part VII, the pilot must review the log prior to flight and decide whether any of the defects recorded affect the airworthiness of the aircraft. Reference may be made to the type certificate data sheet, the aircraft operating manual, or any list provided by the aircraft manufacturer respecting equipment that must be operational for the intended flight. The Minister may also approve a minimum equipment list for use by an owner. Any or all of these may indicate that particular items of equipment are mandatory.
(v) In the case of an aircraft operated pursuant to CAR 604, specific instructions must be provided in the operations manual to facilitate this assessment.
(vi) Where in doubt, the pilot should obtain the advice of an AME. This is best done by requesting the AME to inspect the defective system or component to determine its effect upon the aircraft's fitness for flight. By following this procedure and obtaining the AME's signature in the log book in the form of a maintenance release, the pilot will be able to demonstrate, if necessary, that he has taken all reasonable steps to ensure the airworthiness of the aircraft. Inspection of defective systems by an AME, although advisable, is not a legal requirment. As stated earlier, it is the pilot's responsibility to determine whether the aircraft is fit for the intended flight.
(vii) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft operated pursuant to Part VII, it is not always practicable for the pilot to personally undertake all actions required to determine the airworthiness status, because of the high levels of utilization, complexity of the aircraft, and the limited time available for all the various aspects of pre-flight preparation required. A common standard must be applied to all aircraft of a fleet. For these reasons, the flight training unit and the air operator regulations require the establishment of a formal system for the control of defects.
(viii) Such systems provide a greater degree of confidence that the airworthiness effects of defects have been taken into account, and ensure consistency of application of the standards. They also set limits on the periods for which the repair of a defect may be deferred. For aircraft operated in commercial air service, this system is normally based on the use of Minimum Equipment Lists (MEL), thereby providing the pilot with a sound basis on which to make his decision regarding the intended flight.
(ix) The final decision, however, still rests with the pilot. A pilot who accepts an aircraft with defects, the repair of which has been deferred in accordance with an approved system, has a good defence against any possible charge of flying an unairworthy aircraft, whereas a pilot who undertakes a flight with an aircraft that is not in compliance with the approved system to control the deferral of repairs to defects commits an offence.
(x) The complexity of a system used to control the deferral of repairs to defects will vary according to the type of aircraft operated and the size and nature of the operation and may include reference to an approved minimum equipment list and/or configuration deviation list. In all cases the control system must be described in the air operator's maintenance control manual. Once approved, compliance with those procedures is mandatory.
