French ATC

pushyboss · Post by **pushyboss** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:15 am

a Canadian minority.
_______________________________________________________

Exactly. So I guess the whole idea of the majority rules goes out the window.

I have flown all over the world (lived in the middle east for two years) including the far east and english is the standard. Sometimes it is poor english but it is still english. There may be local chatter on the radio in their own language but instructions/clearances are given in english. ATC using the french language for ATC purposes was purely political with little regard for the implications it has on flight safety. They speak english on the radio in France for gawds sake...

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:18 am

pushyboss wrote:a Canadian minority.
_______________________________________________________

Exactly. So I guess the whole idea of the majority rules goes out the window.

I have flown all over the world (lived in the middle east for two years) including the far east and english is the standard. Sometimes it is poor english but it is still english. There may be local chatter on the radio in their own language but instructions/clearances are given in english. ATC using the french language for ATC purposes was purely political with little regard for the implications it has on flight safety. They speak english on the radio in France for gawds sake...

If you went to these foreign countries, and talked to them in their official language, I am sure they would respond to you in that language. That is the point with the bilingualism. You can speak to them in either language. In my opinion, this improves safety.

Only the fewer ATC need to be fluently bilingual, rather than the larger number of pilots. Sounds like majority rules to me. Your idea of the majority of english speakers in Canada does not fly in Quebec. There is definately a majority of french speaking people there, so again, majority rules, like you said.

The idea of being able to speak to foreign ATC in English is only the case at International Airports, and it is only to accomodate for foreign traffic, which again, they do in Quebec.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:22 am

" I have flown all over the world (lived in the middle east for two years) including the far east and english is the standard. Sometimes it is poor english but it is still english. There may be local chatter on the radio in their own language but instructions/clearances are given in english. ATC using the french language for ATC purposes was purely political with little regard for the implications it has on flight safety. They speak english on the radio in France for gawds sake..."

Exactly, however this subject is about two different countries, Canada and Quebec.

What I'm trying to say is you can communicate in English when in Quebec airspace exactly the same as you can in any other country.

It is a fact and should not be an issue because it won't change.

Cat

pushyboss · Post by **pushyboss** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:06 pm

Right Seat Captain,

So by your logic then in Lacrete Alberta, which happens to be mainly a German speaking Mennonite community, it would be ok to speak low German on the radio at their aiport.

So when we speak of majorities you are suggesting that majorities are regional and not national. Sorry but I was under the impression that Canada was one country where there could only be one majority. But as you seem to be suggesting that these rules should apply only regionally then why should western Canada be saddled with a Liberal government. The west by majority votes conservative. Catdriver should be happy with this as it means that TC has no power in the west as they are an arm of a government which has no mandate west of Winnipeg.

You see you cannot argue majorities in terms of regions. Majorities by their very nature must be argued nationally or the logical conclusion is that each region would be allowed to make their own rules. Under a federalist system allowing to regions to control ther own destinies based on regional majorities would soon cause regional fractionalization and seperate sovereignties. Maybe a good thing in the end anyway.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:19 pm

English is the official language spoken in aviation, and I have had some controllers radio me in french not knowing I dont understand very well. If they can maybe establish a system where french is not spoken on an english frequency and vice versa.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:17 pm

pushyboss wrote:Right Seat Captain,

So by your logic then in Lacrete Alberta, which happens to be mainly a German speaking Mennonite community, it would be ok to speak low German on the radio at their aiport.

So when we speak of majorities you are suggesting that majorities are regional and not national. Sorry but I was under the impression that Canada was one country where there could only be one majority. But as you seem to be suggesting that these rules should apply only regionally then why should western Canada be saddled with a Liberal government. The west by majority votes conservative. Catdriver should be happy with this as it means that TC has no power in the west as they are an arm of a government which has no mandate west of Winnipeg.

You see you cannot argue majorities in terms of regions. Majorities by their very nature must be argued nationally or the logical conclusion is that each region would be allowed to make their own rules. Under a federalist system allowing to regions to control ther own destinies based on regional majorities would soon cause regional fractionalization and seperate sovereignties. Maybe a good thing in the end anyway.

You put together a very good argument for Quebec Sovereigntism. What you are saying is exactly the problem the Quebecers have, that they do not get considered on the federal level, because they are not a large enough of a moajority, but they are still a large segment of Canada's society. We don't want to consider their needs, yet we insist they remain part of Canada. Well we can't have our cake and eat it too. Either we cater to their needs, or they go.

Cargo Pilot · Post by **Cargo Pilot** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:44 pm

Well, I just pulled my head out of my ass and I realized that I had it all wrong.

I now realize it is completely acceptable to have thousands of pounds of aluminum and glass hurtling toward each other with little or no guarantee of colliding, endangering the lives of innocent souls sitting in the back. Of course, a little professionalism would greatly enhance the level of safety for the passengers and crew, however that would take away a 'right' of the pilot that insists on speaking in any language other than English.

I'm sure the passengers would willingly accept this increased risk if it were explained to them prior to the flight. Or in the event of the unthinkable, the families will understand that their loved ones were lost to ensure the 'rights' of the French-speaking population.

"Say again Sir, you're coming in stupid."

TG · Post by TG » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:46 pm

Considered or not, majority or not, people forget that French is also an official language in Canada.

And as a Canadian, there is no real excuse for not knowing basics of your second country's language (at list some durty words)...Either French or English according to your case.
Especially if you are a pilot, prone travel around Canada.

And it will prevents guys like Cargo Pilot being all frustrated.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:55 pm

Cargo Pilot wrote:Well, I just pulled my head out of my ass and I realized that I had it all wrong.

I now realize it is completely acceptable to have thousands of pounds of aluminum and glass hurtling toward each other with little or no guarantee of colliding, endangering the lives of innocent souls sitting in the back. Of course, a little professionalism would greatly enhance the level of safety for the passengers and crew, however that would take away a 'right' of the pilot that insists on speaking in any language other than English.

I'm sure the passengers would willingly accept this increased risk if it were explained to them prior to the flight. Or in the event of the unthinkable, the families will understand that their loved ones were lost to ensure the 'rights' of the French-speaking population.

"Say again Sir, you're coming in stupid."

So you're saying it's safer that you understand ATC, but not the guy hurtling towards you in a thousand pounds of aluminum and glass filled with fuel?

Oh wait, you already understand ATC, and so does the french guy, so what's the problem?

Cargo Pilot · Post by **Cargo Pilot** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:00 pm

The bulk of my frustration could easily be alleviated by any of the hotties in Quebec. (See, I'm not anti-French).

Now THAT is something worth learning the language.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:13 pm

I just love the aviation gang, so many different temperments and experience levels really makes it easy to get people all exercised over something they can not change.

Quote:

"Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:44 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I just pulled my head out of my ass and I realized that I had it all wrong. "

Thank God ( assuming of course there is one. ) , I'm getting out of this industry soon because it truly is disfunctional and getting worse.

Cargo Pilot · Post by **Cargo Pilot** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:14 pm

RSC.

Sorry, I don't buy it. The other guys English may not be great, but I can all but guarantee he knows enough to get the job done. There may be a few pilots around that don't know a lick of English (doubtful) however I'm willing to bet the vast majority can speak it but simply refuse to.

I'm sure some of the pilots just don't know the hazard they are causing which makes this discussion useful. Others just aren't professional enough to leave their politics on the ground.

TTJJ · Post by **TTJJ** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:14 pm

I can't really see the problem with a couple of languages on the radio. Controllers all over the world use their native language.

Crossing France you hear the controllers use French all the time. Same thing in Spain, and Italy. Dakar Oceanic uses French (You only hear English in Germany and Switzerland though).
In Russa you get both. China ditto. Japan and Korea I honestly can't remember although in Korea it doesn't really matter because their English is so hard to understand.
In Central and South America you get Spanish or Portuguese on the radio constantly. Sometimes you even get French.

In any of these places, Center will talk to you in English. Arrival and Tower will as well in the bigger places.

You get used to it.

Situation awareness?

You don't see many midairs happening in places that use a couple of languages on the radio. The one over Switzerland, everyone was speaking English!

I prefer to have a controller who is overworked, vectoring his guys in his own language and little 'ol me in English, than to have him/her stumbleing about in English on one of those "catch as catch can" days, and losing control of the situation. It is a bitch to talk FAST and CLEARLY under pressure in a second language. I know I can't

Situation awareness?

You go into some places in the US during rush hour and the controller is talking so fast he doesn't even wait for a readback. You haven't a clue where everyone else is.

Why do you think God invented TCAS and eye-balls?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:20 pm

" Why do you think God invented TCAS and eye-balls? "

There is another reason I have trouble with beleiving there is a God...if there is one why was I discrimminated against for so many decades having to fly with only 50% safety....

..why didn't he give us TCAS right from the start?

TTJJ · Post by **TTJJ** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:11 pm

Cat, The Lord was merely awaiting the True Prophet.

It is written:

“And when the True Prophet was born, His name was Honeywell. And our Lord, tending to His flock, did have the Prophet speak unto us the sacred words, (in English mind you):

TRAFFIC…..TRAFFIC…

and all was good.

But that not being enough, in a final show of benevolence to all of aviation’s human kind, the Lord did give unto the Prophet those

Most Sacred of Words

to share with us,

The words in which we shall forever take refuge, in the knowledge that we are being watched over and looked out for...

CLEAR OF CONFLICT”

He/She is a loving and caring God

Here endeth the lesson……………………

How can you be a doubter?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:49 pm

Phuck, forgive me lord for I knew not what I thought...

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:22 pm

Low German has never been an official language of Canada. French is, and is spoken by six million people in this country as a mother tongue.

As far as French speaking pilots refusing to speak English, I flew for 40 years in Quebec and that wasn't my experience. If French were withdrawn from ATC, those pilots who use French ATC services would not go home and hide, they'd continue flying. You just wouldn't know they were out there 'cause they wouldn't be talking to anybody.

The only time I was ever scared shitless by conflicting traffic was with a CF-101 doing a high TACAN approach over the QB VOTRAC. We were in cruise at 17,000, and I estimate he came within 100 feet laterally and 200 feet vertically. He was close enough to read the numbers on the fuselage and the underside of the wing. We were talking English to QB Terminal. He was talking English also, to Bagtown on UHF. Neither QB Terminal nor us knew he was near the place.

If you want something real scary, check out the Cypriot 737 accident thread on PPRuNe. In that instance there were two people in the cockpit that couldn't figure out WTF was going on because they couldn't communicate between themselves. So much for dangerous Canadian operations and how great international ops are.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:32 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Phuck, forgive me lord for I knew not what I thought...

God doesn't give a Dam Cat, that's Satan's job.

I did some flying in Europe a few years ago and you quickly learn to use standard phraseology and phonetics especially in France, Italy and Greece. In Portugal I never heard English the whole time I was there. We were on "military control" and I had a Portugese co-pilot who assured me everything was OK with our low level antics.

Never ever had a problem in PQ with hearing both languages on ATC. Made it easier if you ask me. I only had to listen for the English, 9 times out of 10 it was a call for me.

chewsta · Post by **chewsta** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:55 pm

While it won't do anything to make people speak english on the radio, a new requirement to get any license in Canada will be an English test. This is a new ICAO requirement that TC expects to bring in around 2007 (last I heard).

Pratt · Post by **Pratt** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:58 pm

I don't normally get involved in these pissing matches, but I will make an exception in this case.

I have to side with the bunch who think that english should be the only language spoken on the radio with ATC, FSS etc.

I also have been scared shitless by a very close call that can be attributed to the french/english issue. While descending into a community on the Quebec north shore about 15 years ago I had broadcasted my intentions in English. An outbound beaver did the same in French, little did I know he was headed directly for me. We passed much too close for comfort that day.

I still remember my Father wearing a pin home from work, must have been in the early 70's, proclaiming "English is the international language of aviation".

Everywhere but Canada I guess.

Boule · Post by **Boule** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:28 am

Well what we know her is there is two english unilingual pilots for one bilingual.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:16 pm

Everywhere but Canada I guess.

So you think in France all light single engine pilots speak english? How about Russia? Israel?

How do you figure that out of six billion people in the world, only in Quebec do they not speak english?

As for the majority rules crowd (which would of course feel the same way if they lived in poland and only spoke polish) think about what you will get if we have it your way: The I in ICAO stands for International. International population is over 6 Billion. Out of those about 1/5 speaks Chinese, and 380 million speak English. Do the math.

RSC, sorry to back you up so late here. I could not have said it better myself. Good job defending reason and reality over ignorance.

StEx · Post by **StEx** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:19 pm

A little history lesson: When I started flying in the early seventies English was the only official language of aviation in Canada. I learned my English at the same time I learned flying. I don't know how many times I said ROGER without having a clue of what I was asked to do. Very safe especially in controlled airspace.

But it was OK as my language was tolerated in case of necessity. It was not legal and it was not illegal either. But some day, the big guys at CALPA could not toleratate this anymore and they threatened to shut the airspace suring the 1976 Olympics if the government did not ban French totally from the air. Guess what, the government caved in and from that time I was fobidden to speak my own tongue in what was supposed to be my country. Very nice gesture from my fellow compatriots.

It was an eye opener for me and from that day I became an ardent deffendant of the independance of Québec. I still respect the Canadians but I am not interested in sharing my space and my airspace with them. I speak English when I go to Canada and I expect the Canadians will respect my wish to speak my mother tongue when I am in my country.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:33 pm

Now there was an interesting slant on this subject.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:47 pm

I get the distinct feeling from a lot of these posts that people think in a very small world. Get your heads out of your a**es and realize that not everyone knows English. Go to France, you think everyone speaks in English to ATC? All ATC in Canada speaks English, only some are also bilingual. This meets the ICAO standard

Go to LOT or FLOT airlines, and look at the hiring requirments, the pilots must be able to speak english(to some degree). Why is that, do you suppose?

French ATC

Should French ATC be discontinued?