Should pilots be paid full hourly rates for every hour at airport on duty & ALPA MEC negotiate this?

[CanadaAir]

From another thread, some European pilots are paid full rates for every hour from check-in until 45 minutes after their last flight.

Is this something you want to see in Canada?
Should ALPA MEC push for this?

At Envoy pilots get 100% pay for deadhead time while maintaining their high pay rates.
Is this something coming to ALPA in Canada?

I think that that is a fair question to ask. I'm over in Europe right now (WG) flying for TUI for the summer. Currently, our cabin crew back in Canada are paid in the same way as we are - brake release to brake set. It used to be door close to door open but unfortunately that was lost in our last contract signed back in fall 2020. Over here in the UK the pilots and cabin crew here at TUI are paid from check in to brake set +0:45. I am guessing that the $$ per hour amount is a bit less, but they are getting paid when we are sitting in Corfu or where-ever with a slot delay time or slow ground handling etc. We can be fully ready with all pax on board and the door closed and still not getting paid because we haven't pushed yet. They are getting paid the whole time.

Since we are on duty from the moment we show up at the gate, I would like to get paid for all that time. Maintenance delays, catering not there, slow bridge operator, waiting for push clearance, etc. All those minutes add up over a month.
The other one that irks me a bit, at least here at WG and at the previous outfit, is getting only half the credit for online training compared to the time allotted. The time allotted is also very conservative and even when clicking furiously, a course usually takes longer, but that's another story. Basically, pay me when I'm doing company work on a 1:1 ratio.

[fish4life]

So I voted no because I don’t want a MMG to become 160 hour range and get paid for duty only. Right now I don’t do anywhere near 160 hours of duty a month and I don’t want to start.

[Donald]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

[NotDirty!]

If duty rigs and trip rigs are favourable enough (probably has to be better than 1:2 and 1:4), then it forces the company to build more productive pairings… there are arguments for both sides!

I see value in keeping the rules similar to other operators, so wages can be more easily compared. Southwest has their unique pay system that makes it more difficult to compare to other airlines… especially as we are trying to make significant gains to catch up closer to our compatriots south of the border, I don’t see this as a good time to push for wholesale changes in how we get paid.

If you cut my hourly rate in half, but paid me by duty hour rather than credit hour, would I be paid more or less than (or the same as) I am now? It would probably be fairly close for a lot of narrow body pilots doing multi-leg days… but would probably be a pay cut for the wide body pilots doing one long leg each duty period.

[co-joe]

We have a system, it's weird to explain to anyone outside of aviation, but it works. If you paid from check in to check out wages would just be lower to make up for it, and pilots on reserve, or in training, would get a pay cut. If you want to go after higher wages for credit hours, or more credit hours for things like vacation and training I 100% support that.

[CanadaAir]

At Envoy pilots get 100% pay for deadhead time while maintaining their high pay rates.
Is this something coming to ALPA in Canada?

Envoy has 1:2 for non flying duty time, and 1:4 for every non duty hour on the trip - paid while you are on crew bus and at hotel.

[DanWEC]

A major issue I have isn't with assigned duty, it's the completely unpaid time at the gate. Right now it's a giveaway.
4 hour wait for slot? Mx? The 20 minute delay for bags that happens at least 25% of the time? All time away from home, at work, and unpaid. Not to mention the cabin crew that is full-out working the entire time, not just warming the seat waiting for an acars or call.

Cycling the parking brake doesn't always work depending on your ADM, but this is the reason pilots would rather wait on the pad with the APU running.

Paid time needs to start at report for this reason, even if it's a rig that specifically addresses report to departure.

[digits_]

So I voted no because I don’t want a MMG to become 160 hour range and get paid for duty only. Right now I don’t do anywhere near 160 hours of duty a month and I don’t want to start.

That's not necessarily how that would go. The company or union would likely calculate what the current duty to flight pay ratio is. Likely less than 2. Perhaps, as an example let's use 1.5. Then a no cost switch would be to pay for duty based on that ratio and with that MMG.

A 150 hour flight pay credit with 80 mmg would then turn into a 100 hour duty pay credit with 120 mmg. Which on average would be a break even for the pilots. But yes, some will work more, other less, which is always the case when you change pay systems.

[Ash Ketchum]

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have pay based on duty and perdiems based on TAFB however I think the biggest concern is still that the pay is far too low and we shouldn't lose focus on first and foremost improving that. I don't care which format the airline pays me as long as its enough to comfortably raise my family in the city where I am based.

[kiaszceski]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

Not true. None of the 705 I've worked in gave me their contract before signing the job. They gave me the salary and some of the terms. Should I wanted to go over the whole contract the interview would've have been 10hrs long.

[cdnavater]

Add another option, higher min credit of 6 or 2/3 of duty or actual credit whichever is higher and max 15 days worked. This would force them to be more efficient with the pairings.

[RippleRock]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard. You win the prize!

A lot of us are in negotiations, or will be, so that's a dumb thing to say.



FWIW, leave it as it is, and crank the hourly rates up accordingly. The FA's are about to go down this path and it won't be pretty. Their "extra ground pay" will be instantly burried in a rate decrease.

[Donald]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard. You win the prize!

A lot of us are in negotiations, or will be, so that's a dumb thing to say.



FWIW, leave it as it is, and crank the hourly rates up accordingly. The FA's are about to go down this path and it won't be pretty. Their "extra ground pay" will be instantly burried in a rate decrease.

You guys actually sound like the FA's.

Dumb pilot: "Hey I agreed to work for $xxx/year, but I didn't agree to work for free while the brakes were set!"

I agree with you though, if you want more money then simply negotiate the hourly rates higher. One side effect the fa's will discover, is that if their hourly rate gets decreased then their OT rate will decrease as well.

[RippleRock]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard. You win the prize!

A lot of us are in negotiations, or will be, so that's a dumb thing to say.



FWIW, leave it as it is, and crank the hourly rates up accordingly. The FA's are about to go down this path and it won't be pretty. Their "extra ground pay" will be instantly burried in a rate decrease.

You guys actually sound like the FA's.

Dumb pilot: "Hey I agreed to work for $xxx/year, but I didn't agree to work for free while the brakes were set!"

I agree with you though, if you want more money then simply negotiate the hourly rates higher. One side effect the fa's will discover, is that if their hourly rate gets decreased then their OT rate will decrease as well.

Agreed. Pay is friggin pay. Pretend its "ground pay" if that makes everyone feel better. The thing is you aren't getting a dime if you don't come to work. Who cares when it starts and ends, it's just the paycheck at the end of the month that matters.

Who cares one fig "how" it's paid, just pay MORE and at least keep up with Junior's inflation.

[Donald]

See that?

We do agree.

[PositiveRate27]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

“You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.”

… Until the expiration of the collective agreement, at which time the employee group can attempt to negotiate anything they want.

Same goes for the “You knew about flat pay when you got hired..” argument. Yes, we did. Now it’s time to abolish it.

[Donald]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

“You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.”

… Until the expiration of the collective agreement, at which time the employee group can attempt to negotiate anything they want.

Same goes for the “You knew about flat pay when you got hired..” argument. Yes, we did. Now it’s time to abolish it.

If you want a higher T4 at the end of the year, then negotiate a higher hourly rate, that way it'll benefit all your pilots. The ground pay argument is dumb.

[PositiveRate27]

This discussion is dumb.

You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.

“You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.”

… Until the expiration of the collective agreement, at which time the employee group can attempt to negotiate anything they want.

Same goes for the “You knew about flat pay when you got hired..” argument. Yes, we did. Now it’s time to abolish it.

If you want a higher T4 at the end of the year, then negotiate a higher hourly rate, that way it'll benefit all your pilots. The ground pay argument is dumb.

I agree that ground pay is probably not an avenue we should be pursing, however, your statement implied that the discussion is dumb because pilots knew the terms and conditions when they were hired. I’m simply stating that one can get hired at a company and negotiate different terms and conditions at a later date. If the pilot group wants ground pay they are well within their right to attempt to negotiate it. It is never dumb to have discussions and explore new ideas.

[digits_]

Ultimately it boils down to the question: For the same money, would you prefer to spend less time at work, but during that time fly more? Because that's likely what will happen if the company has to pay for duty time instead of flight time.

[CanadaAir]

Ultimately it boils down to the question: For the same money, would you prefer to spend less time at work, but during that time fly more? Because that's likely what will happen if the company has to pay for duty time instead of flight time.

Yes

Pay's moving up.

Pilots can have both. The higher pay and less time at work, more time flying.

Look at Envoy. High pay rates and 100% deadhead pay, that's a start.

If Canadian airlines had to pay 100% for deadheading, there would be less of it. Not forcing pilots to travel from a base in YYC to YYZ for work. They might even have to keep a base open instead of closing, or open new bases. Something they wouldn't do if pilots continue their hours at work in uniform as free for the company to abuse.

Look at construction workers and trades. Every hour they wait on site they are paid, that's why contractors try to reduce trade workers any time on site when they aren't working on the project.

Pilots want more free time, less time waiting in terminals and on deadheads? Have to charge the company for every hour they have you at the airport or flying, only then will they change their ways of scheduling.

Pilots can have high US pay rates and better schedules. If willing to negotiate it.
Or can let the company continue to take advantage.

[Donald]

“You are offered terms of employment including salary prior to taking the job.”

… Until the expiration of the collective agreement, at which time the employee group can attempt to negotiate anything they want.

Same goes for the “You knew about flat pay when you got hired..” argument. Yes, we did. Now it’s time to abolish it.

If you want a higher T4 at the end of the year, then negotiate a higher hourly rate, that way it'll benefit all your pilots. The ground pay argument is dumb.

I agree that ground pay is probably not an avenue we should be pursing, however, your statement implied that the discussion is dumb because pilots knew the terms and conditions when they were hired. I’m simply stating that one can get hired at a company and negotiate different terms and conditions at a later date. If the pilot group wants ground pay they are well within their right to attempt to negotiate it. It is never dumb to have discussions and explore new ideas.

My point was that when you were hired, you agreed to a MMG at an hourly wage = annual salary. If you start negotiating ground pay, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes off your flying wage, and your annual salary is unchanged.

[PositiveRate27]

If you want a higher T4 at the end of the year, then negotiate a higher hourly rate, that way it'll benefit all your pilots. The ground pay argument is dumb.

I agree that ground pay is probably not an avenue we should be pursing, however, your statement implied that the discussion is dumb because pilots knew the terms and conditions when they were hired. I’m simply stating that one can get hired at a company and negotiate different terms and conditions at a later date. If the pilot group wants ground pay they are well within their right to attempt to negotiate it. It is never dumb to have discussions and explore new ideas.

My point was that when you were hired, you agreed to a MMG at an hourly wage = annual salary. If you start negotiating ground pay, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes off your flying wage, and your annual salary is unchanged.

How we are paid and the amount we are paid are both on the table during full negots. Expect to see changes to both. This is not zero sum bargaining. Concessions will not be accepted on this contract.

[CanadaAir]

How we are paid and the amount we are paid are both on the table during full negots. Expect to see changes to both. This is not zero sum bargaining. Concessions will not be accepted on this contract.

AC pilots and other ALPA can select how they will negotiate

Will they go for top a top North American contract? Or settle for any small gain?

Even if AC starting rate at $120k, its still less than a first year US regional FO.
Will AC pilots think $120k and a few small working condition improvements is suitable?

Or AC pilots willing to strike for weeks, without regular pay and the public anger?
How far will AC pilots push?

AC pilots don't think US wages are possible to start, then don't expect them.

[rigpiggy]

All your flight(sched or actual) half your duty, or minimum/6 tafb

[CaptDukeNukem]

All your flight(sched or actual) half your duty, or minimum/6 tafb

Isn’t this what most ALPA carriers have already?