(Avro) Arrow as modern day alternative to F35??

[frosti]

Why don't can't we pick one or two specialties that are most applicable to our Canadian situation; spend money on, and excel at those areas of defence, and reduce our capabilities in other areas? And, at the same time, tie that capability into our NATO and other international obligations?

Ultimately, picking and choosing what we do with our fighters is up to our Canadian commanders. We didn't go to Iraq, but went into Libya. Canada is a world leader and we can't just isolate ourselves from everyone else, as much as everyone would want to. We can't just focus all our attention on one thing or another, it all ties together.

[Instructor_Mike]

But why do we have to get involved frosti?

Lets say that tomorrow there is a civil war in North Korea. Why would we have to get involved militarily? Who's place is it to say that one side or the other is right since they may trade one dictator for a worse one.

I'm fine with voluntary aid and medical supplies but my point is that in the our noses don't always belong in the internal affairs of another country.

[Tom H]

But why do we have to get involved frosti?

Lets say that tomorrow there is a civil war in North Korea. Why would we have to get involved militarily? Who's place is it to say that one side or the other is right since they may trade one dictator for a worse one.

I'm fine with voluntary aid and medical supplies but my point is that in the our noses don't always belong in the internal affairs of another country.

Well you are not alone

I feel much the same

Our military's primary goal needs to be Canada.
Missions to include for Air, Land, Sea (not in any particular order)
- Sovereignty patrol/Defense
- Fisheries/Environmental Patrols
- Drug and other related border issues
- Search and Rescue
- Domestic Disaster relief
And other domestic duties

Secondary working with the USA
- NORAD and other North American Defense Missions
- North American Search and Rescue
- North American Disaster relief
- North American Fisheries/Environmental Patrols
- North American Drug and other related border issues

Third would be International efforts working with NATO and the UN
- Primary, humanitarian aid and disaster relief
- Secondary Peace Keeping
- Third select Combat mission roles

And under that topic we need to stop meddling in Civil Wars unless asked to intercede on humanitarian reasons.

I can understand our involvement in the former Yugoslavia, genocide cannot be permitted.

I can understand Afganistan from the point of assisting the elected government to regain control, training police and military as well as the humanitarian supplies line, the schools built, aid stations and medical services.

I cannot understand why we were in Libya other than maybe to seal the borders so it didn't spill into neighboring countries. It was a civil war and NATO ended up acting as the Air Force for the rebels...in a conflict like this we should not be picking sides, they need to sort it out.

Then Syria, were there may be more legitimate reason no one does anything? Come on now, the difference is?

When you pause to look at the replacement fighter needs from the point of view listed it leads to very different choices.

Yes we need fighter...a lot more than 65
We also need a lot more SAR, Maritime Patrol, Northern Patrol and Transport Aircraft
We need a stronger Coast Guard
We need a larger better equipped Navy
and there are still equipment needs for the Army

But we need to base "what we need" on Canada's needs first.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[frosti]

We need a lot of new things, this is what happens when the Liberals are in power for a few decades, your defence infrastructure and equipment rots away. I believe the only reason we went to Libya is because it was relatively safe and our jets needed some action after the new upgrades. All departments of the military need money and new equipment, its just the Canadian people think we have other priorities.

[North Shore]

<Mod hat ON>

Just a reminder to try and keep this civil and aviation-related, please. Otherwise, it's off down the memory hole.

Thanks.

[frosti]

My apologies.

Back on topic, it doesn't matter what fighter we end up with, there won't be people around left to maintain them. Last few years there have been a massive exodus out of the fighter base units. This is what happens when you put a military base in an oil economy (granted the base was there before the oil boom, but it is what it is now). People just say @#$! it and leave for the oil industry making an easy 6 figure salary. The older people who were around during the hiring freeze are now retiring and the younger people are releasing. Those F35's will look nice sitting in the hangar.

[North Shore]

Wasn't really directed at you, frosti; and, I'm partially to blame for making the diversion. I just didn't want the thread to devolve into the standard left/right political split that causes acrimony and moderator headaches..

[2R]

It can be very difficult to tell the difference between an extreme leftie and an extreme right winger.
As both believe in complete control of your life.
Mao,Hitler,Mugabe,Pol Pot,Stalin had more in common than most would think.
I love it when politicians paraphrase each other ,the first time i laughed out loud when the Iron Lady Thatcher paraphased Lenin. She said" that those who do not contribute to the country should not expect to benefit from others hard work".Lenin said"Those who do not work ,do not eat"
When Obamas wife was talking about her struggle it had me reaching for a book written by a someone else who wrote about his struggle.To count the similarities,but i could not find a copy as the book is banned in Canada and has been burned by the extreme left
Listening to a UBC prof talking about the need for a final solution for the aboriginal issues in Canada made me smile as he used the phrase five times.I first thought he was only trying to see if anyone was listening and i think i was the only one who dared laugh when such a leftie like him was using language that could have come straight from a speech given by Goebels.
The Prof was completely unaware of his bloopers.

What fighter aircraft we should build or buy is not as important as ensuring they never fall into the hands of the newly elected fascists in Quebec.Lest the PQ use them against the Anglos and Etnics.

[iflyforpie]

Also, remember it was the Liberals who gave us the Arrow in the first place.

[Instructor_Mike]

Also, remember it was the Liberals who gave us the Arrow in the first place.

But they were in power when the Jet liner was cancelled so they could have more 104s. Conservatives killed the Arrow.

Both sides are morons IMO

[Old Dog Flying]

And the Liberals were going to cancel the Arrow but realizing that they were about to get kicked out in the next election decided to let the Conservatives take the heat...just as has happened in recent years over helicopters.

It is all politics folks..and wait until Justin Trudeau becomes PM..then the military will really take a screwing. Remember the acorn doesn't fall very far from the tree and Pierre's ghost still lingers in the halls of DND HQ

Mike: The Jetliner was cancelled so that Avro could build more CF-100s..there was a real nasty Cold War at the time in case you were not aware. The CF-100 was the best all-weather interceptor of its generation//just ask the B-36 guys who were regularly bounced from above while at FL450+

[2R]

They should have built the NB-36 nobody would have wanted to shoot that plane down over their territory

[shitdisturber]

They should have built the NB-36 nobody would have wanted to shoot that plane down over their territory

The Soviets wouldn't have hesitated to shoot it down, David Suzuki they ain't!

[Old Dog Flying]

Deleted..wrong party

[Instructor_Mike]

AMike: The Jetliner was cancelled so that Avro could build more CF-100s..there was a real nasty Cold War at the time in case you were not aware. The CF-100 was the best all-weather interceptor of its generation//just ask the B-36 guys who were regularly bounced from above while at FL450+

My mistake, I was thinking 104s, but yeah the government wanted 100s built for Korea, but if I remember my info correctly by the time the lines were changed around Korea was over before the new birds made it overseas in any strength.. That was my point.

[Yvr Man]

An updated "made in Canada " Avro Arrow MK4 would definitely "Kick ass" with any of the military jets in the market ,Dual engines, fly faster and longer .Can actually do a full arctic patrol .
Adding stealth tech to it plus new avionics etc ... Would be something to write home about and the investment would be made "IN CANADA FOR CANADA" rather than throwing our hard earned tax dollars to the yanks .The spinoff business's would create another industrial base for Hi Tech in Canada !
Its the same BS argument Mr Harper uses to say "Non" that Diefebaker used when he sold Canada out in 1959 .
BC Ferries made a big deal in purchasing German built & designed Ferries which cost BC a lot more $$$ and the bloody things cost more to run than the old C Class Ferries which were designed & built in BC , so BC Ferries only uses them when the passenger loads are high , otherwise they are tied up in low demand days !

Harper should find himself a spine and make a bold move to put Canada 1st !

[Yvr Man]

To the point ,

A brand new Orenda Iroquois engine ( Ex 206) has been recovered from the Brits where it had been sitting in dry storage since 1959 after they had done their testing ,its being completely rebuilt in BC by
S&S turbines ..stay tuned !

Avro Arrow Plans and aircraft test results are still in existence , certain key engineers simply just "took them home" rather than destroy them ...

The current group in Ottawa should have a hard look at this "Newe Arrow "proposal ... there are more pluses than minuses to it !

[pelmet]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/science/ ... 2e79&ei=15