Timing the cycle

[DanWEC]

Why don't we just make a pilot tip option for passengers on the IFE? That way the company doesn't have to give us raises at all! Just tap the 15% button and your pilots can afford to eat that night!

[AstroPants]

Why don't we just make a pilot tip option for passengers on the IFE? That way the company doesn't have to give us raises at all! Just tap the 15% button and your pilots can afford to eat that night!

Fits nicely with the Canadian user pay model.

[JHR]

15%? I don't even see that option in restaurants anymore. Minimum is 18%. There go Canadian pilots dragging down the industry again!

[RippleRock]

There's lots of money to compensate us properly. Lots.

Some minor housecleaning done by removing a single layer of redundant "middle-management" and maybe a few dozen useless "accountants", (that can easily be replaced by more efficient accounting software) and they'll have our uplift without spending a dime.

Remember that movie "Office Space"? They need to ask a few questions like "What do you do here?" "OK......but what is it that you do?"


Even with the colossal embedded waste in running this show, there's STILL plenty of money.



HOLD THE LINE

[Chips&Pops]

Flatpayers had a choice. Not really victims. I would wager every pilot over the last 20 years took a paycut to join AC.

Anyone who passes on arguably the most lucrative career in the country because of low pay in the first 4 years of a 30-35 year career doesn’t understand basic math. Voting with your feet sounds cute but when you’re on the outside looking in 25 years later your moral superiority won’t pay the bills.

The reality is that over the last 20 years, flat pay has been locked in for 10 of them by an inept and corrupt pilot association that has gladly eaten its young. Jazz can’t attract anyone but 250 hour college grads. They are parking planes left right and centre. Do you see them making substantial gains outside of bargaining? No, you don’t, because the idea of supply and demand is too simplistic in the aviation sector in Canada with our ATPL rules. Substantial wage increases have to be made during full bargaining with a galvanized pilot group and strong leadership. We haven’t had full bargaining here since 2014. For any pilot hired in 2014 ACPA threw away 1/3rd of their career for 2% per year. Any pilot that has opted to sit it out and “vote with their feet” waiting for AC to improve will now have about 3000 pilots ahead of them on the seniority list and given up about 10 years of payscale and pension contributions. Pretty stupid choice.

What you’re witnessing now is the revolt of thousands of pilots who took it on the chin coming here knowing that the contract would one day expire and they would have to stand arm and arm to make substantial improvements.

ACPA is history. Flat pay is history.

The time is now.

The irony is that in the 70's and one could even say the 80's, pilots handled far more of the manual flying than they do now.

You have zero sympathy from the public / etc when now the computers do most. You have no sympathy from those with 20-30 years of experience.

If anything, this is why those with so much experience deserve to have the increases, and you "earn your dues" in the first 5-10 years. Is flat pay for year 1-4 even an issue when you make massive amounts in your later years? No different than most professions. Pay your dues, bide your time, move up and earn the rewards.

are you dumb?

[rookiepilot]

Why don't we just make a pilot tip option for passengers on the IFE? That way the company doesn't have to give us raises at all! Just tap the 15% button and your pilots can afford to eat that night!

Make a tip mandatory to depart the flight, or kick those off who wont tip.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/doorda ... 9c7d5.html

[Bede]

The irony is that in the 70's and one could even say the 80's, pilots handled far more of the manual flying than they do now.

You have zero sympathy from the public / etc when now the computers do most.

Zero sympathy for accountants. Back in the day, they had to do everything using a calculator and ledger books. Now they use Excel and constantly use autofill.

[daedalusx]

The irony is that in the 70's and one could even say the 80's, pilots handled far more of the manual flying than they do now.

You have zero sympathy from the public / etc when now the computers do most.

Zero sympathy for accountants. Back in the day, they had to do everything using a calculator and ledger books. Now they use Excel and constantly use autofill.

Imagine thinking your wages be dictated by the amount of manual flying you're doing

Where is the computer button for the high speed RTO in 1/4 mile blowing snow CYAM, icy contaminated runway, 15 kts x-wind ? because it sure would make my next PPC check ride much easier ...

Also pretty sure L-1011s in the 70s had very decent autopilots, they even had autoland on ILS back then.

[accountant]

Why don't we just make a pilot tip option for passengers on the IFE? That way the company doesn't have to give us raises at all! Just tap the 15% button and your pilots can afford to eat that night!

Go for it.

And while you're at it, make sure you're sharing those tips with the inflight crew, the ground staff and everyone else helping you do your job.

And when you're late, not only will we short your tip, we will expect you to comp our flight before deplaning for service issues. No need to deal with APPR you can pay us out of your lavish tips.

[cdnavater]

Why don't we just make a pilot tip option for passengers on the IFE? That way the company doesn't have to give us raises at all! Just tap the 15% button and your pilots can afford to eat that night!

Go for it.

And while you're at it, make sure you're sharing those tips with the inflight crew, the ground staff and everyone else helping you do your job.

And when you're late, not only will we short your tip, we will expect you to comp our flight before deplaning for service issues. No need to deal with APPR you can pay us out of your lavish tips.

Nope, you must pre tip otherwise your pilots might make sure you arrive super late, no tip, we divert to our alternate and run out of duty day.

[Hysteria]

Flatpayers had a choice. Not really victims. I would wager every pilot over the last 20 years took a paycut to join AC.

Anyone who passes on arguably the most lucrative career in the country because of low pay in the first 4 years of a 30-35 year career doesn’t understand basic math. Voting with your feet sounds cute but when you’re on the outside looking in 25 years later your moral superiority won’t pay the bills.

The reality is that over the last 20 years, flat pay has been locked in for 10 of them by an inept and corrupt pilot association that has gladly eaten its young. Jazz can’t attract anyone but 250 hour college grads. They are parking planes left right and centre. Do you see them making substantial gains outside of bargaining? No, you don’t, because the idea of supply and demand is too simplistic in the aviation sector in Canada with our ATPL rules. Substantial wage increases have to be made during full bargaining with a galvanized pilot group and strong leadership. We haven’t had full bargaining here since 2014. For any pilot hired in 2014 ACPA threw away 1/3rd of their career for 2% per year. Any pilot that has opted to sit it out and “vote with their feet” waiting for AC to improve will now have about 3000 pilots ahead of them on the seniority list and given up about 10 years of payscale and pension contributions. Pretty stupid choice.

What you’re witnessing now is the revolt of thousands of pilots who took it on the chin coming here knowing that the contract would one day expire and they would have to stand arm and arm to make substantial improvements.

ACPA is history. Flat pay is history.

The time is now.

The irony is that in the 70's and one could even say the 80's, pilots handled far more of the manual flying than they do now.

You have zero sympathy from the public / etc when now the computers do most. You have no sympathy from those with 20-30 years of experience.

If anything, this is why those with so much experience deserve to have the increases, and you "earn your dues" in the first 5-10 years. Is flat pay for year 1-4 even an issue when you make massive amounts in your later years? No different than most professions. Pay your dues, bide your time, move up and earn the rewards.

blah blah (anti-logic)

No.

Hold the line.

[Fanblade]

The irony is that in the 70's and one could even say the 80's, pilots handled far more of the manual flying than they do now.

You have zero sympathy from the public / etc when now the computers do most. You have no sympathy from those with 20-30 years of experience.

If anything, this is why those with so much experience deserve to have the increases, and you "earn your dues" in the first 5-10 years. Is flat pay for year 1-4 even an issue when you make massive amounts in your later years? No different than most professions. Pay your dues, bide your time, move up and earn the rewards.

Yikes! You have your demographic dissonance on full display. Earn your dues to pilots with already years in the industry? Many of which are quickly upgradable before they are even hired?

Disclosure. I have nearly 40 years in this industry. I may have worked for, and been on strike against you. I have full sympathy for the next generation of aviators. The degradation in pay and working conditions has gone way too far. It’s not me you need to pay more. (Don’t get me wrong. We are going to make you do that. But you don’t need to. Where am I going? Nowhere) You need to pay more for quickly upgradable pilots. ( That I know you are aware of, admit it or not. That is where the shortage currently is acute). But even that is incredibly short sighted. You know who you really need to pay? The 16-17 year old deciding on career options. Convincing them to spend 100k plus on a career with, at the moment, poor return on investment. In an industry that has a standard practice of expecting you to start over again multiple times. In an industry where management puts very little value on the next generation with their pay your dues mentality. In an industry with very difficult lifestyle choices in this housing induced, double income required world. You and I are from an era where a pilots salary could nicely support a family. This is no longer the case and a pilots schedule does not mesh well in the double income with family world. A housing crisis and poor starting wages that force people to commute. Making family life even less tenable. Worse, at least at Air Canada, pairing quality and days at work have increased. The pay and working conditions need to be addressed. If they are not? The shortage will only get worse. Now of course Air Canada believes this will benefit them as it will curtail domestic competition.




But this isn’t why I am responding. Your post is an excellent example of why pilots should never allow management to dictate value. Why? Because management will always seek to devalue. Management is financially motivated to do so.

I have heard over the years.

- You’re just a button monkey. The autopilot does the work.
- You’re just a regional pilot.
- You’re just Canadian
- You’re not experienced enough (at 8,000 hours)
- You’re just an FO. Gear and Flap is all you do.
- You haven’t payed your dues even after a decade.
- You’re just a Narrow Body pilot
- You’re just a low cost carrier pilot.
- You’re just a bush pilot.
- You’re just a medivac pilot.

I have a you're just, for you.

- You’re going to have to get used to the idea we don’t care what value you place on us. We know upfront it will be devaluing. We expect it.

- You’re going to have to get used to the idea that we are going to simply “Make You”

[DanWEC]

How about a go-fund-me prior to departure? Everyone logs on and the doors only close if the target is met. If there's anything leftover that's what the pilots get, because we're essentially worthless and just a vestigal appendix in regards to the flight, right?
Oh, and we need to de-ice? Everyone's app buzzes on the way to the pad and the company needs another hundred dollars or else back to the gate we go!
That way the company can continue to pay industry standard executive salaries while not giving a shit about anyone else.
You're welcome for the advice; I'm self-taught by studying examples such as attempting to pay exec bonuses with loan money while pilots were furloughed. That class act even disgusted the Minister of Transport! Good stuff!

[accountant]

- You’re going to have to get used to the idea that we are going to simply “Make You”

Like WS did in their negotiations for a "United Style" Contract?

You'll get your 15-20% give or take with AC.

You won't be at $500K CDN, let alone anywhere near the US wages.

We all expect you'll get some small increases. None of this 40-50-60%.

WS set the bar in showing how quickly a union, especially ALPA will cave when all the verbal rhetoric was "Hold the Line!" and "Not taking less than United!"

You may not like my opinions, that's fine. I'm saying you're not going to see a United contract anytime this year or next. Prove me wrong.

[GIVCE!]

Do you have a pilots licence accountant? A ppl or maybe a cpl? Have you ever flown a plane for fun? Taken a lesson? Intro flight?
G

[DanWEC]

15%? I don't even see that option in restaurants anymore. Minimum is 18%. There go Canadian pilots dragging down the industry again!

Sshh, l'll do it for 10% to be a real commercial pilot!

[Fanblade]

- You’re going to have to get used to the idea that we are going to simply “Make You”

Like WS did in their negotiations for a "United Style" Contract?

You'll get your 15-20% give or take with AC.

You won't be at $500K CDN, let alone anywhere near the US wages.

We all expect you'll get some small increases. None of this 40-50-60%.

WS set the bar in showing how quickly a union, especially ALPA will cave when all the verbal rhetoric was "Hold the Line!" and "Not taking less than United!"

You may not like my opinions, that's fine. I'm saying you're not going to see a United contract anytime this year or next. Prove me wrong.

I have never said a United contract. I said 2003 minimum. But like yours that is just my personal opinion

I have challenged you more than once to explain why you believe, AC pilots are worth less than 20 years ago. The 2003 numbers are not US wages, but they are a significant leap frog of WJ. Similar/ just shy of US wages without the currency exchange. That is exactly what we made in comparison to our US peers 20 years ago as well. Similar. Just shy without currency exchange.

Explain to us again? Why is our value less than 20 years ago? If we achieve regaining our losses. Is that even a raise?

If I borrow your rake. When I return it to you. Did you gain a rake? Or are you even?
What if I gave you back only the rake handle? Would you have lost something? Or did you gain a handle?
What If I tell you getting the whole rake back is an over the top expectation.

That is exactly what you are saying to us.

You, as does AC management, see our past losses as permanent. We don’t. We see gaining our past losses as breaking even. We see this as finally recovering from CCAA. We gave. The company prospered. Time to return the rake. Not just the handle.

If AC doesn’t voluntarily return the whole rake? We will make them return it.


The WJ pilots made the decision to strike or not. Not ALPA.

AC pilots will make the decision. Not ALPA.

We will not accept WJ wages. If that is all AC management will do I put the odds of a strike very close to 100%.

[Bede]

You, as does AC management, see our past losses as permanent. We don’t. We see gaining our past losses as breaking even. We see this as finally recovering from CCAA. We gave. The company prospered. Time to return the rake. Not just the handle.

If AC doesn’t voluntarily return the whole rake? We will make them return it.

Bang on.

[Army of one]

I have the resolve. I will walk the picket line as long as it takes. Short term pain for long term gain. The very mental logic most had to convince themselves and their family to go to AC to be begin with.

Im with you 100%. Whatever it takes.

[RippleRock]

Fanblade, excellent analogy. Right on point. Hopefully it shut this Muppet up.....

...but I'm betting she'll be back.

[Stu Pidasso]

Accountant is a bitter Sky Hag, where a little knowledge (VERY little) of Flying Jet Airplanes is proven once again.

[accountant]

- You’re going to have to get used to the idea that we are going to simply “Make You”

Like WS did in their negotiations for a "United Style" Contract?

You'll get your 15-20% give or take with AC.

You won't be at $500K CDN, let alone anywhere near the US wages.

We all expect you'll get some small increases. None of this 40-50-60%.

WS set the bar in showing how quickly a union, especially ALPA will cave when all the verbal rhetoric was "Hold the Line!" and "Not taking less than United!"

You may not like my opinions, that's fine. I'm saying you're not going to see a United contract anytime this year or next. Prove me wrong.

I have never said a United contract. I said 2003 minimum. But like yours that is just my personal opinion

I have challenged you more than once to explain why you believe, AC pilots are worth less than 20 years ago. The 2003 numbers are not US wages, but they are a significant leap frog of WJ. Similar/ just shy of US wages without the currency exchange. That is exactly what we made in comparison to our US peers 20 years ago as well. Similar. Just shy without currency exchange.

Explain to us again? Why is our value less than 20 years ago? If we achieve regaining our losses. Is that even a raise?

If I borrow your rake. When I return it to you. Did you gain a rake? Or are you even?
What if I gave you back only the rake handle? Would you have lost something? Or did you gain a handle?
What If I tell you getting the whole rake back is an over the top expectation.

That is exactly what you are saying to us.

You, as does AC management, see our past losses as permanent. We don’t. We see gaining our past losses as breaking even. We see this as finally recovering from CCAA. We gave. The company prospered. Time to return the rake. Not just the handle.

If AC doesn’t voluntarily return the whole rake? We will make them return it.


The WJ pilots made the decision to strike or not. Not ALPA.

AC pilots will make the decision. Not ALPA.

We will not accept WJ wages. If that is all AC management will do I put the odds of a strike very close to 100%.

I have never once said "You're worth less than you were 20 years ago".

I've said - you're not getting a massive increase to effective increase your wages 150% to make up for what you perceive as losses.

It's simply not happening.

WS Pilots yelled and screamed about "Holding the Line!" and getting a "UNited" Contract.... look where that ended up.

AC Pilots are yelling and screaming about "Holding the LIne" and the same thing... do you really think the mothership will boost Captain pay close to half a mil? If so, I've got a few islands in the Bahamas to sell you....

Regardless of whether you're worth the wage or not, or feel you deserve it, you simply won't get it. Everyone is suffering, inflation doesn't just affect pilots it affects every industry. The economics aren't there.

Even if you got a 40% increase like some analysts suggest, you're no where near a "United Contract" which is what I've been saying. Many of you are trumpeting the "I won't accept anything less"

Reality ---- you will. WS proved it. The bar has been set.

Best of luck getting the massive gains you hope for, but don't be surprised when you settle for something more reasonable. You'll have to bargain for smaller gains on successive contracts. Be smart about it and do shorter deals and renegotiate every few years.

[accountant]

You, as does AC management, see our past losses as permanent. We don’t. We see gaining our past losses as breaking even. We see this as finally recovering from CCAA. We gave. The company prospered. Time to return the rake. Not just the handle.

If AC doesn’t voluntarily return the whole rake? We will make them return it.

Bang on.

Lets see this. Doubt you guys have the fortitude to strike for months on end. The bar has been set. Even if you're legislated back to work and have an arbitrated contract, WS is the guideline now.

I don't think any non-pilots have any issues with you getting a reasonable increase. But 100-150%? Give us a break.

[altiplano]

You, as does AC management, see our past losses as permanent. We don’t. We see gaining our past losses as breaking even. We see this as finally recovering from CCAA. We gave. The company prospered. Time to return the rake. Not just the handle.

If AC doesn’t voluntarily return the whole rake? We will make them return it.

Bang on.

Lets see this. Doubt you guys have the fortitude to strike for months on end. The bar has been set. Even if you're legislated back to work and have an arbitrated contract, WS is the guideline now.

I don't think any non-pilots have any issues with you getting a reasonable increase. But 100-150%? Give us a break.

My experience has actually been that most people are surprised at how little I make, and for how long I made so little in my career. Most people are surprised by how poor and unpredictable my work conditions are, and that my pension isn't gold plated, and that my benefits suck.

I don't think the BOD and the company have the fortitude to lock us out for months on end when they are holding a losing hand, because that's what it's going to be, a lock out first, only then followed by a strike call to equalize the leverage. So really it's on them, that's their choice to play it, but we have the cards this time, it's only a matter of when they will fold and how much pain they will self inflict.

The government can maybe pass back to work legislation, debatable justifying it though given the airline market today and the will of the NDP coalition, but going back to work in that environment, under those conditions will be an untenable situation, I know the stress and fatigue for most in that environment will be a safety concern. I still have wounds and stress from the last time we went through it. When they lock us out, I'm not coming back until we get a negotiated deal.

They can't force an arbitrated contract either and we now have the right association with the right resources and the will to back us against it. Air Canada does not want this, they know against ALPA resources it will lose in the courts, the precedent already exists. They will talk and bluster and threaten because that's the game that has worked so well for them, but when they see the resolve of this group, of this association, they will realize it's different. The company will ultimately fall in line for what they know they owe us and what is completely justifiable.. "It was a good run," they will say to the BOD, "but those fucking pilots finally wised up... We'll have to get it out of the IAMAW and CUPE."

The highlights for them to sell to people like you will be really mundane sounding:

Restoration to pre-bankruptcy 2002 rates indexed + a % raise.
Modernized scheduling enhancements similar to comparator airlines.
Streamlined operations with the rouge integration.
Air Canada remains the preeminent Canadian airline and stays highly competitive in all its major markets.
etc.

But what it will mean is:
Record Gains.
Record QOL Improvements.
No Concessions.

[RippleRock]

I've almost got to thank "Beaker the Muppet" for bring out the best in you guys. Maybe she served a purpose after all.

Really compelling arguments being presented.