ant_321 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:11 pm
I am a relatively junior captain at SWG and I am cautiously optimistic about joining WestJet. I think in the long run it will be a good thing for me. However, I disagree about the schedule only being an issue for super senior SWG pilots. I’ve only worked more than 12 days in a month a handful of times since I’ve been here. Most months are about 10. Working 12-14 days will be a big hit to me. Hopefully all the SWG good credit flying that will be coming can get that number down.
Hmm fair enough, I was somewhat under the impression that the more junior guys had more days worked and less desirable schedules, but don’t claim to be an expert in current SWG scheduling.
That being said, I did have a buddy who is quite senior at SWG lamenting that instead of Cancun layovers he was going to be doing 16 days at 4 legs a day with Fort St. John layovers. I assured him that that’s not the case.
It IS, and will be, different flying. There are still plenty of longer one or two day pairings available, but there will inevitably be more domestic and US flying than SWG pilots are currently doing. Not trying to say it’s better or worse, that’s somewhat moot. Our respective management teams made these decisions for us and we just need to figure out what works best for the most amount of us.
I think lots will like the general WJ flying and contract. But I know that there are a number of Sunwing pilots who don’t want things to change. I don’t blame them, but unfortunately for them, that decision was made for them by Onex and Sunwing Management.
There’s a huge misconception about what seniority bidding entails. I’m not aware of any systems running schedules for larger airlines that’s completely seniority based. Sunwing’s system is a seniority based socialized bidding system. It tries to give everyone what they bid for. People not used to these systems automatically think the top 15% get their bid. The bottom 50% get zero. This couldn’t be further from the truth.
Last spring Sunwing’s previous mec was meeting with westjets and showed them the schedules of the bottom of the list for multiple bases. Our flying is arguably better at WG. But the lowest bidders had better schedules, lots of days off and flights they had bid for.
With the new regs and wg’s current cba the top of the list works pretty much as many days as the bottom. Sometimes more.
Everyone always thinks the people above them want the exact same schedule as you. Again false. I’m at the top. In the winter I used to play in organized leagues 3 days a week. I worked weekends all the time. I do pairings. I’ve worked multiple Christmas and new years. You never know.
I’m personally looking forward to merging. If there’s better things in each cba we need to combine them. Likewise SOP’s. It’s the “do as you told” mentality that doesn’t get far with me. I guarantee there’s things Sunwing can do better likewise westjet. Maybe time to make changes for the better, for everyone.
There's also a misconception that WS pilots don't understand a seniority bidding system. Most WS pilots came from such airlines and have little desire to return. From my experience, WJs socialized bidding is far superior.
ALPA surveyed the pilot group regarding the current system, and the overall group satisfaction was very high. Over 85% satisfied, I believe. I'm not saying the two groups can't learn from one another, but changing the current bidding structure at WJ will be a tough sell.
I think all but the extremely senior SWG pilots will be pleasantly surprised at the WJ schedule. There are a large number of 1 day pairings that are just a turn and back (for example, in YYC, 45% of the pairings are one days). In the last year I have only had two months where I had a full 16 days allotted, but both those months had vacation in them so I actually only worked 11 days. Most months are 12-14 days scheduled.
You will occasionally get a 4 leg day, but they're the exception rather than the norm.
Still lots of Southern layovers plus add larger Canadian and US cities such as JFK, ATL, LAX, LAS, PHX and IAH. Unlike Encore, WJ rarely has layovers in small Northern Cities though there are a fair bit of Victoria, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax & St. John's layovers.
The great thing about the socialized bidding is that a larger percentage of pilots get good schedules. If you want specific days off but don't care about destinations, you'll probably get the days off, but ya, may have more domestic multi-day, multi-leg pairings. If you don't care about particular days off, but want certain layovers, you can mostly get those. I prefer a bit of a mix and so far have been very happy with the schedule. I usually have a few specific days off in a month that I'd like, but then also bid for a few specific layovers. I tend to get at least one each month.
I bid to avoid red-eyes; I've been scheduled 3 in the last year. I think that's fair and if you only do it every once in a while it's not bad on your sleep schedule.
The thing to keep in mind is that it wasn't the WestJet pilots that made the decision for WestJet to purchase Sunwing, it was Onex. I think most WestJet pilots sympathize with those at Sunwing who are not thrilled about the merger, but at the same time, it's not like WJ pilots had any say in Onex's directions.
I am a relatively junior captain at SWG and I am cautiously optimistic about joining WestJet. I think in the long run it will be a good thing for me. However, I disagree about the schedule only being an issue for super senior SWG pilots. I’ve only worked more than 12 days in a month a handful of times since I’ve been here. Most months are about 10. Working 12-14 days will be a big hit to me. Hopefully all the SWG good credit flying that will be coming can get that number down.
Being a Relatively junior Capt at Sunwing, even if you get to keep your Capt spot you will most likely be on Reserve at WJ. Reserve system is bottom 20% and 18 days no exceptions. After the dust settles some Capt might want to be SR F/Os so you can hold a block and at least know your schedule. Remember there is pilots in YYC that have been at WJ for more than 15 years still on RESERVE!!
JBI socialized bidding only applies to people off reserve. No bidding destinations, no shift trades nothing until you are not in the bottom 20%of your base.
I think all but the extremely senior SWG pilots will be pleasantly surprised at the WJ schedule. There are a large number of 1 day pairings that are just a turn and back (for example, in YYC, 45% of the pairings are one days). In the last year I have only had two months where I had a full 16 days allotted, but both those months had vacation in them so I actually only worked 11 days. Most months are 12-14 days scheduled.
You will occasionally get a 4 leg day, but they're the exception rather than the norm.
Still lots of Southern layovers plus add larger Canadian and US cities such as JFK, ATL, LAX, LAS, PHX and IAH. Unlike Encore, WJ rarely has layovers in small Northern Cities though there are a fair bit of Victoria, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax & St. John's layovers.
The great thing about the socialized bidding is that a larger percentage of pilots get good schedules. If you want specific days off but don't care about destinations, you'll probably get the days off, but ya, may have more domestic multi-day, multi-leg pairings. If you don't care about particular days off, but want certain layovers, you can mostly get those. I prefer a bit of a mix and so far have been very happy with the schedule. I usually have a few specific days off in a month that I'd like, but then also bid for a few specific layovers. I tend to get at least one each month.
I bid to avoid red-eyes; I've been scheduled 3 in the last year. I think that's fair and if you only do it every once in a while it's not bad on your sleep schedule.
The thing to keep in mind is that it wasn't the WestJet pilots that made the decision for WestJet to purchase Sunwing, it was Onex. I think most WestJet pilots sympathize with those at Sunwing who are not thrilled about the merger, but at the same time, it's not like WJ pilots had any say in Onex's directions.
I am a relatively junior captain at SWG and I am cautiously optimistic about joining WestJet. I think in the long run it will be a good thing for me. However, I disagree about the schedule only being an issue for super senior SWG pilots. I’ve only worked more than 12 days in a month a handful of times since I’ve been here. Most months are about 10. Working 12-14 days will be a big hit to me. Hopefully all the SWG good credit flying that will be coming can get that number down.
Being a Relatively junior Capt at Sunwing, even if you get to keep your Capt spot you will most likely be on Reserve at WJ. Reserve system is bottom 20% and 18 days no exceptions. After the dust settles some Capt might want to be SR F/Os so you can hold a block and at least know your schedule. Remember there is pilots in YYC that have been at WJ for more than 15 years still on RESERVE!!
JBI socialized bidding only applies to people off reserve. No bidding destinations, no shift trades nothing until you are not in the bottom 20%of your base.
I am aware of the rsv and not excited about the prospect, although long call doesn’t sound too bad. Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know when the most junior block holder captain in YYZ started at WestJet?
Another note not directed at anyone in particular, there is a misconception about how many junior Captains there are at Sunwing. It is true that there are Captains with only 2-3 years at the company but not many fit into that category. The most junior upgrade awarded in the last bid had about 5 years seniority. And as for how long it takes to climb the list, I have over 8 years at SWG and I am in the bottom 15% on the captain list in YYZ. I would be even more junior at most other bases. The majority of Sunwing Captains have 10+ YOS. It seems many of the WestJet pilots I talk to are under the impression that we have a boat load of Captains with only a couple YOS, that simply isn’t the case.
Do SWG all work so few days because there’s way too many pilots to aircraft ratio? I thought with foreign pilots not coming you’d be working hard this year. 14-16 days is too much.
We work few day because we fly long distances going down south and back mixed with single and double deadheads to get to locations down south. The fall is usually slow every year because we do a lot of hiring and the flights are used up on training. Cadets require even more line training. December is when it get really busy for us all the way until May. During this time, there is lots of flying and lots of overtime. The new duty rigs also require more crew.
Zanzibar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:31 amDo SWG all work so few days because there’s way too many pilots to aircraft ratio? I thought with foreign pilots not coming you’d be working hard this year. 14-16 days is too much.
I am a relatively junior captain at SWG and I am cautiously optimistic about joining WestJet. I think in the long run it will be a good thing for me. However, I disagree about the schedule only being an issue for super senior SWG pilots. I’ve only worked more than 12 days in a month a handful of times since I’ve been here. Most months are about 10. Working 12-14 days will be a big hit to me. Hopefully all the SWG good credit flying that will be coming can get that number down.
Being a Relatively junior Capt at Sunwing, even if you get to keep your Capt spot you will most likely be on Reserve at WJ. Reserve system is bottom 20% and 18 days no exceptions. After the dust settles some Capt might want to be SR F/Os so you can hold a block and at least know your schedule. Remember there is pilots in YYC that have been at WJ for more than 15 years still on RESERVE!!
JBI socialized bidding only applies to people off reserve. No bidding destinations, no shift trades nothing until you are not in the bottom 20%of your base.
I am aware of the rsv and not excited about the prospect, although long call doesn’t sound too bad. Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know when the most junior block holder captain in YYZ started at WestJet?
Another note not directed at anyone in particular, there is a misconception about how many junior Captains there are at Sunwing. It is true that there are Captains with only 2-3 years at the company but not many fit into that category. The most junior upgrade awarded in the last bid had about 5 years seniority. And as for how long it takes to climb the list, I have over 8 years at SWG and I am in the bottom 15% on the captain list in YYZ. I would be even more junior at most other bases. The majority of Sunwing Captains have 10+ YOS. It seems many of the WestJet pilots I talk to are under the impression that we have a boat load of Captains with only a couple YOS, that simply isn’t the case.
Most junior block holder YYZ captain is a July 2012 hire. Most junior YYZ captain is a Sep 2014 hire. That’s from the latest ALPA department list from October 2023.
I think all but the extremely senior SWG pilots will be pleasantly surprised at the WJ schedule. There are a large number of 1 day pairings that are just a turn and back (for example, in YYC, 45% of the pairings are one days). In the last year I have only had two months where I had a full 16 days allotted, but both those months had vacation in them so I actually only worked 11 days. Most months are 12-14 days scheduled.
You will occasionally get a 4 leg day, but they're the exception rather than the norm.
Still lots of Southern layovers plus add larger Canadian and US cities such as JFK, ATL, LAX, LAS, PHX and IAH. Unlike Encore, WJ rarely has layovers in small Northern Cities though there are a fair bit of Victoria, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax & St. John's layovers.
The great thing about the socialized bidding is that a larger percentage of pilots get good schedules. If you want specific days off but don't care about destinations, you'll probably get the days off, but ya, may have more domestic multi-day, multi-leg pairings. If you don't care about particular days off, but want certain layovers, you can mostly get those. I prefer a bit of a mix and so far have been very happy with the schedule. I usually have a few specific days off in a month that I'd like, but then also bid for a few specific layovers. I tend to get at least one each month.
I bid to avoid red-eyes; I've been scheduled 3 in the last year. I think that's fair and if you only do it every once in a while it's not bad on your sleep schedule.
The thing to keep in mind is that it wasn't the WestJet pilots that made the decision for WestJet to purchase Sunwing, it was Onex. I think most WestJet pilots sympathize with those at Sunwing who are not thrilled about the merger, but at the same time, it's not like WJ pilots had any say in Onex's directions.
I am a relatively junior captain at SWG and I am cautiously optimistic about joining WestJet. I think in the long run it will be a good thing for me. However, I disagree about the schedule only being an issue for super senior SWG pilots. I’ve only worked more than 12 days in a month a handful of times since I’ve been here. Most months are about 10. Working 12-14 days will be a big hit to me. Hopefully all the SWG good credit flying that will be coming can get that number down.
Being a Relatively junior Capt at Sunwing, even if you get to keep your Capt spot you will most likely be on Reserve at WJ. Reserve system is bottom 20% and 18 days no exceptions. After the dust settles some Capt might want to be SR F/Os so you can hold a block and at least know your schedule. Remember there is pilots in YYC that have been at WJ for more than 15 years still on RESERVE!!
JBI socialized bidding only applies to people off reserve. No bidding destinations, no shift trades nothing until you are not in the bottom 20%of your base.
So how many years does it take at WJ to get socialized bidding? I must have mistakenly thought that reserve was a short time? Are you saying it takes 15 years to get to socialized bidding or am I getting that wrong?
pacman007 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:00 pm
Being a Relatively junior Capt at Sunwing, even if you get to keep your Capt spot you will most likely be on Reserve at WJ. Reserve system is bottom 20% and 18 days no exceptions. After the dust settles some Capt might want to be SR F/Os so you can hold a block and at least know your schedule. Remember there is pilots in YYC that have been at WJ for more than 15 years still on RESERVE!!
JBI socialized bidding only applies to people off reserve. No bidding destinations, no shift trades nothing until you are not in the bottom 20%of your base.
You’re not wrong, but not quite right either.
Socialized bidding preferences doesn’t apply to reserve. Bottom 10% of each position/base is reserve. Company CAN/MAY use up to 20% of each position/base for reserve. So if you’re sitting at 18% from the bottom at a base/position, you may get reserve, it may be long call or possibly short call, or you may get a line.
It is possible for senior pilots to bid for reserve, and some do,
The higher seniority pilots on res get long call reserve. I can’t recall the exact number and don’t have the CA2 in front of me.
Don’t get me wrong, the working conditions on reserve are worse than holding a line. Because I have young kids at home there’s a good chance I’ll stick in my current position/base until I can at least hold long call reserve on a new position.
My understanding is that Sunwing has a reserve system as well though.
Sunwing has rsv but the QOL on rsv isn't bad. max 16 days helps a lot as well as our rsv times are 8 hrs and over set periods. A rsv assignment can't infringe on a day off. Were best effort 2 hrs to report, but thats not a 100% requirement.
Brand new cadet hire here at SWG, starting my training very soon.
Given the current climate of the merger in 2024, I have following questions:
1- Since SWG will no longer have the damp lease/European deployed ops with Tui, does this mean I will be laid off this summer right after my training is completed? Or is there a chance to be moved to an FO position on Dash8 for EnCore?
2- If I am laid off due to being junior most joining SWG at the onset of the merger, should I keep loyal and stay until a recall, or prepare to join other operators? My main concern is that I want to be able to fly and learn and no-summer Ops means I sit home and get paid, which is fine for some people but for me I rather fly and gain experience.
Zeddecho1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:46 pm
Brand new cadet hire here at SWG, starting my training very soon.
Given the current climate of the merger in 2024, I have following questions:
1- Since SWG will no longer have the damp lease/European deployed ops with Tui, does this mean I will be laid off this summer right after my training is completed? Or is there a chance to be moved to an FO position on Dash8 for EnCore?
2- If I am laid off due to being junior most joining SWG at the onset of the merger, should I keep loyal and stay until a recall, or prepare to join other operators? My main concern is that I want to be able to fly and learn and no-summer Ops means I sit home and get paid, which is fine for some people but for me I rather fly and gain experience.
First of all congratulation on your new employment, you must be very sharp.
Now for the question of loyalty, my take on this is as soon as you're laid off, why would you have loyalty? You never know if you will get recalled or not do you? So I will do my training, and if I were laid off, I would look somewhere else, nobody would blame you for that. It's not the same doing the training and leaving with a fresh PPC in the pocket for AC.
Zeddecho1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:46 pm
Brand new cadet hire here at SWG, starting my training very soon.
Given the current climate of the merger in 2024, I have following questions:
1- Since SWG will no longer have the damp lease/European deployed ops with Tui, does this mean I will be laid off this summer right after my training is completed? Or is there a chance to be moved to an FO position on Dash8 for EnCore?
2- If I am laid off due to being junior most joining SWG at the onset of the merger, should I keep loyal and stay until a recall, or prepare to join other operators? My main concern is that I want to be able to fly and learn and no-summer Ops means I sit home and get paid, which is fine for some people but for me I rather fly and gain experience.
First of all congratulation on your new employment, you must be very sharp.
Now for the question of loyalty, my take on this is as soon as you're laid off, why would you have loyalty? You never know if you will get recalled or not do you? So I will do my training, and if I were laid off, I would look somewhere else, nobody would blame you for that. It's not the same doing the training and leaving with a fresh PPC in the pocket for AC.
The OP is a cadet, so he won’t have 2000 hours to go to AC. This is the catch 22 problem with going to an airline in a cadet program. You would be able to get a job at Jazz, Encore, Porter etc… WestJet or AC not so much.
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Zeddecho1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:46 pm
Brand new cadet hire here at SWG, starting my training very soon.
Given the current climate of the merger in 2024, I have following questions:
1- Since SWG will no longer have the damp lease/European deployed ops with Tui, does this mean I will be laid off this summer right after my training is completed? Or is there a chance to be moved to an FO position on Dash8 for EnCore?
2- If I am laid off due to being junior most joining SWG at the onset of the merger, should I keep loyal and stay until a recall, or prepare to join other operators? My main concern is that I want to be able to fly and learn and no-summer Ops means I sit home and get paid, which is fine for some people but for me I rather fly and gain experience.
Here’s my take, they wouldn’t necessarily hire you if they didn’t anticipate needing you and all union contracts have recall rights in case of layoff. Some are for 10 years and include deferred recall as well, meaning you can take a job elsewhere and defer a recall until the second recall. After a second recall, if you turn it down you would lose your seniority number and are no longer eligible to be recalled.
Zeddecho1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:46 pm
Brand new cadet hire here at SWG, starting my training very soon.
Given the current climate of the merger in 2024, I have following questions:
1- Since SWG will no longer have the damp lease/European deployed ops with Tui, does this mean I will be laid off this summer right after my training is completed? Or is there a chance to be moved to an FO position on Dash8 for EnCore?
2- If I am laid off due to being junior most joining SWG at the onset of the merger, should I keep loyal and stay until a recall, or prepare to join other operators? My main concern is that I want to be able to fly and learn and no-summer Ops means I sit home and get paid, which is fine for some people but for me I rather fly and gain experience.
You won’t be laid off in the summer. Sunwing and Westjet are short pilots. They aren’t going to lay people off and have them go elsewhere after spending $50k training you. The nature of the SWG business model is there is a lot of sitting around in the summer. If there are no deployments there will just be more than usual. WestJet had said there will be no layoffs as a result of the merger and encore is a separate company. I wouldn’t worry about having to fly a Q400.
Westjet will for sure lay off pilots if the economy slows. The layoffs will not be a "result of merger", they will simply say there is less work than anticipated. Let's hope this doesn't happen! BUT because of sunwings business model they have way more pilots than tails they are brining over to Westjet.
Efficiency is number one at Westjet there will be no pilots sitting at home that's for sure.
pacman007 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:56 pm
Westjet will for sure lay off pilots if the economy slows. The layoffs will not be a "result of merger", they will simply say there is less work than anticipated. Let's hope this doesn't happen! BUT because of sunwings business model they have way more pilots than tails they are brining over to Westjet.
Efficiency is number one at Westjet there will be no pilots sitting at home that's for sure.
The 18 tails vs 500 pilots is not an accurate representation of the amount of work SWG will be bringing into WestJet. It’s more like 500 pilots for 42 aircraft worth of work for 6 months and then over staffed in the summer. I’m sure WestJet thinks they can keep everyone busy all year post merger.
The Flight Ops team at WestJet is aware of number of tails and pilots integrating into our operations. We are currently still hiring multiple classes per month throughout the first quarter in 2024. Hiring is still planned beyond Q1 with a plan up to the potential integration of lists. Our executive suite know and are planning to accommodate the uptake. One way we can utilize the uplift is increasing our aircraft efficiencies and up the number of hours per day an average tail flies with increased frequency.
Lots to still be determined obviously with integration. WestJet has only ever laid off pilots during the virus years, with integration hopefully brings new bases for WestJet as a Company and opportunities for all of us. We are returning to NAT 37 ops this summer prior to integration and have announced new destinations that will be in addition to the destinations brought in with Sunwing.
I understand and recognize the fear of the unknown is unsettling, my hope is we all can stay classy throughout the process.
Another thing you have to consider is attrition when air canada gets their pay increase next year. With westjets new contract I don’t think they have resolved this issue, just delayed it.
Zeddecho1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:46 pm
Brand new cadet hire here at SWG, starting my training very soon.
Given the current climate of the merger in 2024, I have following questions:
1- Since SWG will no longer have the damp lease/European deployed ops with Tui, does this mean I will be laid off this summer right after my training is completed? Or is there a chance to be moved to an FO position on Dash8 for EnCore?
2- If I am laid off due to being junior most joining SWG at the onset of the merger, should I keep loyal and stay until a recall, or prepare to join other operators? My main concern is that I want to be able to fly and learn and no-summer Ops means I sit home and get paid, which is fine for some people but for me I rather fly and gain experience.
Congrats and don't stress about it. As mentioned by a few above, it's highly unlikely that you will be laid off. Sunwing recently posted a new ad for pilots, and the plan is to continue hiring for the foreseeable future. You will probably have 50 or so pilots below you by the time we get to the summer. Although summer plans are unknown at this point, there is still a very good chance Sunwing will have deployments at least once more. The work is there, but it's a matter of what Westjet has planned for Sunwing pilots this summer. I'm sure the intent is to start training Sunwing pilots to Westjet SOP's etc in the summer, but that won't be possible until the merger process is complete, and that is still a long ways off. My bet is status quo this summer for Sunwing with TUI and TVS deployments.
Oleo 4 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:26 pm
The Flight Ops team at WestJet is aware of number of tails and pilots integrating into our operations. We are currently still hiring multiple classes per month throughout the first quarter in 2024. Hiring is still planned beyond Q1 with a plan up to the potential integration of lists. Our executive suite know and are planning to accommodate the uptake. One way we can utilize the uplift is increasing our aircraft efficiencies and up the number of hours per day an average tail flies with increased frequency.
Lots to still be determined obviously with integration. WestJet has only ever laid off pilots during the virus years, with integration hopefully brings new bases for WestJet as a Company and opportunities for all of us. We are returning to NAT 37 ops this summer prior to integration and have announced new destinations that will be in addition to the destinations brought in with Sunwing.
I understand and recognize the fear of the unknown is unsettling, my hope is we all can stay classy throughout the process.
O
I don’t believe your comment about multiple classes per month is accurate. The number I heard through the grapevine was four classes planned in the first half. The executives have pretty much said we are sufficiently crewed.
Oleo 4 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:26 pmWe are currently still hiring multiple classes per month throughout the first quarter in 2024. Hiring is still planned beyond Q1 with a plan up to the potential integration of lists.
That is false. The CEO of WestJet says that WestJet is adequately staffed. As far as I've seen, there will be no outside hiring.
As safety wrote. If there’s excess pilots/no integration there will be deployments. We’ll know soon enough. Sunwing was waiting on westjet and was suppose to have an answer by december 1.
