Air Canada pilots should negotiate at least to match Envoy and Medevac

[accountant]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Why don't you think this?

Typical playground response.

How many medivac pilots have miscalculated fuel and ended up landing the exit plane in a field?

Aren’t pilots pilots? You say there is no difference.

Well sorry, there is. You don’t hear if that happening.


While you’re worrying about striking and your 3rd cottage, they’re saving lives. Give them the raise.

[accountant]

To be clear, if pilots were further compensated the "Uber Driver's tip" for for each passengers ride to the airport in a filthy Prius, our pay would be up 50%++ tomorrow.

An interesting observation that puts this whole "pay pilots nothing BS" into perspective......

....... the Government ups the Security fees, the passenger just pays it, the AIF... they pay it, gas surcharge... they pay it. Then the Corp has it's Nav fees raised.....they just pay it, engine overhaul costs rise....they just pay it, a new tug goes up in cost...they pay it, aircraft acquisition costs rise by 20%...they just pay it, catering costs rise...they just pay it, a new BMW for Consierge service at the airport....they just pay for it......on and on and on.

However,

PILOTS DEMAND TO BE COMPENSATED 2002 WAGES ADJUSTED FOR COL ONLY.....LOOK OUT. That's unacceptable and outrageous.

JUST PAY IT! ....and stop dicking us around.

Hold the Line.

Do you ever say anything new? It’s getting old.

“Hold the Line” “hold my beer” “hold my hand while I’m on the picket line for half of what I say I will hold out for”

They also don’t pay for the bmw. It’s advertising.

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

I'm happy to see I'm striking a chord....maybe, just maybe my message is resonating somewhere. GOOD, because it's true. The Corp pays every COL increase or direct cost increase without so much as a whimper...they just do it....but here come the pilots....UNACCEPTABLE....we must remain oppressed and substandard because we are Canadian and don't have any right to equal compensation. No right.

Right.....we'll see.

Your vitriol is and hate for pilots is clear. Maybe get a new hobby. You don't even have the capacity or decency to explain to everyone why you're even on this forum. What's your game? Why the hate? Answer the questions.

HOLD THE LINE everyone.....many more losers will make their case. This dingbat is one of many.

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Been there, done that, watched guys like you laugh as you did it. Then you wonder why non pilots have no sympathy.

[Bede]

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Umm, that's the law you fool. You can only go over your duty time for a very narrow set of circumstances.

[digits_]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Why don't you think this?

Compared to the Missinippi job, the medevac pilots fly riskier flights in worse equipment at all times of the night with very little notice, lifting patients and dealing with sometimes very unpleasant smells. They also often fuel and clean their planes, possibly in arctic temperatures.

And as mentioned in previous posts: they are short on applicants, so pay had to be raised to attract them. I doubt any medevac pilot starts their pay negotiation with "AC pilots make X, so I need at least Y". Yet this topic finds it necessary to compare yourself to a completely different branch of aviation. I ask again: why?

[RippleRock]

Do you ever say anything new? It’s getting old.

“Hold the Line” “hold my beer” “hold my hand while I’m on the picket line for half of what I say I will hold out for”

They also don’t pay for the bmw. It’s advertising.

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

I'm happy to see I'm striking a chord....maybe, just maybe my message is resonating somewhere. GOOD, because it's true. The Corp pays every COL increase or direct cost increase without so much as a whimper...they just do it....but here come the pilots....UNACCEPTABLE....we must remain oppressed and substandard because we are Canadian and don't have any right to equal compensation. No right.

Right.....we'll see.

Your vitriol is and hate for pilots is clear. Maybe get a new hobby. You don't even have the capacity or decency to explain to everyone why you're even on this forum. What's your game? Why the hate? Answer the questions.

HOLD THE LINE everyone.....many more losers will make their case. This dingbat is one of many.

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Been there, done that, watched guys like you laugh as you did it. Then you wonder why non pilots have no sympathy.

My motivation for being on this forum is clear. I'm hiding nothing.

WHY ARE YOU HERE? Answer the question.

If you legitimize your purpose here, we may just take you and your buddy for something other than just annoying slangers.


HOLD THE LINE everyone.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Do you ever say anything new? It’s getting old.

“Hold the Line” “hold my beer” “hold my hand while I’m on the picket line for half of what I say I will hold out for”

They also don’t pay for the bmw. It’s advertising.

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

I'm happy to see I'm striking a chord....maybe, just maybe my message is resonating somewhere. GOOD, because it's true. The Corp pays every COL increase or direct cost increase without so much as a whimper...they just do it....but here come the pilots....UNACCEPTABLE....we must remain oppressed and substandard because we are Canadian and don't have any right to equal compensation. No right.

Right.....we'll see.

Your vitriol is and hate for pilots is clear. Maybe get a new hobby. You don't even have the capacity or decency to explain to everyone why you're even on this forum. What's your game? Why the hate? Answer the questions.

HOLD THE LINE everyone.....many more losers will make their case. This dingbat is one of many.

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Been there, done that, watched guys like you laugh as you did it. Then you wonder why non pilots have no sympathy.

Yep. And I’ll do it with a smile on my face the whole time.

Who said anything about sympathy? The real world is unfair, get over it.

[Tbayer2021]

I'm happy to see I'm striking a chord....maybe, just maybe my message is resonating somewhere. GOOD, because it's true. The Corp pays every COL increase or direct cost increase without so much as a whimper...they just do it....but here come the pilots....UNACCEPTABLE....we must remain oppressed and substandard because we are Canadian and don't have any right to equal compensation. No right.

Right.....we'll see.

Your vitriol is and hate for pilots is clear. Maybe get a new hobby. You don't even have the capacity or decency to explain to everyone why you're even on this forum. What's your game? Why the hate? Answer the questions.

HOLD THE LINE everyone.....many more losers will make their case. This dingbat is one of many.

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Been there, done that, watched guys like you laugh as you did it. Then you wonder why non pilots have no sympathy.

Yep. And I’ll do it with a smile on my face the whole time.

I love how the likes of accountant always have a problem with pilots sticking to the letter of the contract/CARs, yet never seem to have a problem doing it themselves.

[NotDirty!]

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Been there, done that, watched guys like you laugh as you did it. Then you wonder why non pilots have no sympathy.

I had one that went even further… we stranded a plane load of passengers because we anticipated fatigue would be excessive if we had completed the turn, despite it being less than our max duty day… and our flight ops management backed us up on that decision! We didn’t do it to say F.U. to the company or the passengers… we did it because it was the safer option, and in the end safety trumps business. While it cost a bit more to accommodate our pax for an extra night in the Caribbean, and to lay over our crew, it could have cost a LOT more if one of us made a mistake trying to land in YHZ at 0400 after a 12 hour duty day!
As it has been said before, one of the hardest things to learn how to do in aviation is to say “no”. If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident and see how expensive that is!

[PositiveRate27]

Do you ever say anything new? It’s getting old.

“Hold the Line” “hold my beer” “hold my hand while I’m on the picket line for half of what I say I will hold out for”

They also don’t pay for the bmw. It’s advertising.

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

I'm happy to see I'm striking a chord....maybe, just maybe my message is resonating somewhere. GOOD, because it's true. The Corp pays every COL increase or direct cost increase without so much as a whimper...they just do it....but here come the pilots....UNACCEPTABLE....we must remain oppressed and substandard because we are Canadian and don't have any right to equal compensation. No right.

Right.....we'll see.

Your vitriol is and hate for pilots is clear. Maybe get a new hobby. You don't even have the capacity or decency to explain to everyone why you're even on this forum. What's your game? Why the hate? Answer the questions.

HOLD THE LINE everyone.....many more losers will make their case. This dingbat is one of many.

Just curious… are you the type of pilot who will time themselves out for being a minute over duty day and strand a plane load of people? Wouldn’t surprise me if that was you.

Been there, done that, watched guys like you laugh as you did it. Then you wonder why non pilots have no sympathy.

Do we follow the laws and regulations mandated by our own employer and regulating body? Yes we do. Do we make these difficult decisions in the interest of safety with hundreds of people breathing down our neck in real time? Yes we do.

Are you advocating for us to bust duty and thus opening up ourselves and the airline to legal liabilities to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars?

I’m finding it more and more difficult to believe you are involved with any reputable airline in any capacity. Probably explains why you were so completely wrong about WestJet when they got a 24% wage increase (6x what you were adamant was the max they would get).

[Bede]

I'm pretty sure accountant is just a troll.

From another (older) thread:

So Ray,

Did you work this case on a contingency deal? Must have been a nice payout in the end. AC pays more to the pilots, driving their costs up, they give their gains to you, in your pocket --- like most lawyers, and then you find another ambulance to chase.

[accountant]

I'm pretty sure accountant is just a troll.

From another (older) thread:

So Ray,

Did you work this case on a contingency deal? Must have been a nice payout in the end. AC pays more to the pilots, driving their costs up, they give their gains to you, in your pocket --- like most lawyers, and then you find another ambulance to chase.

This was actually a legit question that he never answered. I stand by my question. Don’t call Saul

[RippleRock]

I'm pretty sure accountant is just a troll.

From another (older) thread:

So Ray,

Did you work this case on a contingency deal? Must have been a nice payout in the end. AC pays more to the pilots, driving their costs up, they give their gains to you, in your pocket --- like most lawyers, and then you find another ambulance to chase.

I'd tend to agree. However, the said troll sure riled us up. I think it was for the better.

We now have multiple threads of decent arguments in our favor that wouldn't have been available reading otherwise. They might deserve our thanks as it's now permanent info for anyone inclined.

[dillpickle]

It would be good if the admin on this website actually banned people. And helped keep the trolls away. But it seems like they are nowhere to be found.

[AirCandida]

It would be good if the admin on this website actually banned people. And helped keep the trolls away. But it seems like they are nowhere to be found.

But then half of the Air Canada posters would be banned.

[dillpickle]

It would be good if the admin on this website actually banned people. And helped keep the trolls away. But it seems like they are nowhere to be found.

But then half of the Air Canada posters would be banned.

The trolls would. Then maybe people would stick with one user ID and start acting like adults.

[accountant]

Do we follow the laws and regulations mandated by our own employer and regulating body? Yes we do. Do we make these difficult decisions in the interest of safety with hundreds of people breathing down our neck in real time? Yes we do.

Are you advocating for us to bust duty and thus opening up ourselves and the airline to legal liabilities to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars?

I’m finding it more and more difficult to believe you are involved with any reputable airline in any capacity. Probably explains why you were so completely wrong about WestJet when they got a 24% wage increase (6x what you were adamant was the max they would get).

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

Some of you may be good apples, but some of you soil the bed.

With WS, I didn't expect the catchup bump, but I predicted the carry forward increase. Yep, I was off on my predication. Happy?

Now when AC doesn't get their 53% inflation catch up, PLUS extra increases, are you all going to acknowledge I was right on this negotiation? Doubtful. Too much pride and ego under those hats.

[PositiveRate27]

Do we follow the laws and regulations mandated by our own employer and regulating body? Yes we do. Do we make these difficult decisions in the interest of safety with hundreds of people breathing down our neck in real time? Yes we do.

Are you advocating for us to bust duty and thus opening up ourselves and the airline to legal liabilities to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars?

I’m finding it more and more difficult to believe you are involved with any reputable airline in any capacity. Probably explains why you were so completely wrong about WestJet when they got a 24% wage increase (6x what you were adamant was the max they would get).

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

Some of you may be good apples, but some of you soil the bed.

With WS, I didn't expect the catchup bump, but I predicted the carry forward increase. Yep, I was off on my predication. Happy?

Now when AC doesn't get their 53% inflation catch up, PLUS extra increases, are you all going to acknowledge I was right on this negotiation? Doubtful. Too much pride and ego under those hats.

I’m very sorry you experienced that level of unprofessionalism, truly I mean that. It should never happen and I can understand a level of disdain for a group based off witnessing that first hand.

I’m glad you acknowledge that WestJet got their catch up. That’s what we are after as well. AC pilots are much farther behind everyone else in this industry. It’s a large number, but the market supports it. The future is unwritten, but like I told you during WS’s negots, expect to see large numbers. If we don’t get it, I absolutely will come on here and say we came short of our goal, but you also have to understand that negots are forever ongoing and the hard work for improvements will never stop.

[RippleRock]

Do we follow the laws and regulations mandated by our own employer and regulating body? Yes we do. Do we make these difficult decisions in the interest of safety with hundreds of people breathing down our neck in real time? Yes we do.

Are you advocating for us to bust duty and thus opening up ourselves and the airline to legal liabilities to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars?

I’m finding it more and more difficult to believe you are involved with any reputable airline in any capacity. Probably explains why you were so completely wrong about WestJet when they got a 24% wage increase (6x what you were adamant was the max they would get).

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

Some of you may be good apples, but some of you soil the bed.

With WS, I didn't expect the catchup bump, but I predicted the carry forward increase. Yep, I was off on my predication. Happy?

Now when AC doesn't get their 53% inflation catch up, PLUS extra increases, are you all going to acknowledge I was right on this negotiation? Doubtful. Too much pride and ego under those hats.

I’m very sorry you experienced that level of unprofessionalism, truly I mean that. It should never happen and I can understand a level of disdain for a group based off witnessing that first hand.

I’m glad you acknowledge that WestJet got their catch up. That’s what we are after as well. AC pilots are much farther behind everyone else in this industry. It’s a large number, but the market supports it. The future is unwritten, but like I told you during WS’s negots, expect to see large numbers. If we don’t get it, I absolutely will come on here and say we came short of our goal, but you also have to understand that negots are forever ongoing and the hard work for improvements will never stop.

You feel the need to answer to and apologize to this person?

I'm dumbfounded. What have they ever done for you except attempt to lower pilot WACON expectations on this forum? Seriously.

[rookiepilot]

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

I am a critic when I think a crew doesn’t care, I fly commercially a lot, and I have never seen this.

Find this very hard to believe. Not buying.

[dillpickle]

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

I am a critic when I think a crew doesn’t care, I fly commercially a lot, and I have never seen this.

Find this very hard to believe. Not buying.

These days the way we're treated by this corporation, I have zero issue pulling the pin if I go 1 minute over.

Respect and effort goes both ways. The company wants to "follow the contract", ok well I can do that too.

Tough shit, yes I get that it hurts passengers. But this company won't change until it starts to effect their profits.

[accountant]

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

Some of you may be good apples, but some of you soil the bed.

With WS, I didn't expect the catchup bump, but I predicted the carry forward increase. Yep, I was off on my predication. Happy?

Now when AC doesn't get their 53% inflation catch up, PLUS extra increases, are you all going to acknowledge I was right on this negotiation? Doubtful. Too much pride and ego under those hats.

I’m very sorry you experienced that level of unprofessionalism, truly I mean that. It should never happen and I can understand a level of disdain for a group based off witnessing that first hand.

I’m glad you acknowledge that WestJet got their catch up. That’s what we are after as well. AC pilots are much farther behind everyone else in this industry. It’s a large number, but the market supports it. The future is unwritten, but like I told you during WS’s negots, expect to see large numbers. If we don’t get it, I absolutely will come on here and say we came short of our goal, but you also have to understand that negots are forever ongoing and the hard work for improvements will never stop.

You feel the need to answer to and apologize to this person?

I'm dumbfounded. What have they ever done for you except attempt to lower pilot WACON expectations on this forum? Seriously.

What have you ever done to get sympathy from the travelling public to support your cause? This is why the public doesn't care about your demands, and underpaid juniors who have been bullied by the seniors will cross the line.

I've seen this happen more than once. Personally have seen it happen at least 5 times the last 2 years. You'd have more sympathy from me (not that you care) if I hadn't seen this stuff first hand. I've never seen it with Porter or the smaller airlines, *ONLY* WS and AC. Every other airline pilot seems to be team players.

Carry on.

[accountant]

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

I am a critic when I think a crew doesn’t care, I fly commercially a lot, and I have never seen this.

Find this very hard to believe. Not buying.

I've seen it personally 5 times in 2 years. 3 times on WS, 2 times on AC. Never on Porter or Flair. Haven't flown Lynx so I can't speak to them.

Just like you say my opinion doesn't matter since I'm not a "pilot", your opinion doesn't matter on this either since you're part of the group causing the issue, not the group impacted by it. Sure you've never seen it... doesn't support your narrative as a pilot.

[cdnavater]

Yes you do, but for every time you follow the regulations to a T, I can tell you that I've seen more than 1 time at a gate where pilots have laughed and intentionally dragged out getting on the plane or dealing with paperwork to "time out" intentionally. It's one thing to do it for safety, it's another to laugh about it at the gate while you're doing it, in front of passengers.

I am a critic when I think a crew doesn’t care, I fly commercially a lot, and I have never seen this.

Find this very hard to believe. Not buying.

I've seen it personally 5 times in 2 years. 3 times on WS, 2 times on AC. Never on Porter or Flair. Haven't flown Lynx so I can't speak to them.

Just like you say my opinion doesn't matter since I'm not a "pilot", your opinion doesn't matter on this either since you're part of the group causing the issue, not the group impacted by it. Sure you've never seen it... doesn't support your narrative as a pilot.

What exactly did you witness? Seriously, did you witness a couple pilots catching up with each other knowing something you don’t know, like they’ve been informed that there is a delay of some sort and there is literally nothing they can do about it. Getting in their seats will not change the outcome of them going over their day.
Let me tell you a story, I had a very long two leg day scheduled, but the final destination posted a 3 hour ground delay which if everything went well we could do it. We were in our seats waiting for the ground crew who was busy on another flight since we were delayed obviously our dedicated crew was doing something else, anyhow a crew finally shows up and loads us up. They hand us the bag count and we tell them we’re clear for the door, which means close the door and pull the bridge. I’m watching and my crew drives away, bridge still connected. I called ops and said our crew just left and we basically have a minute and we’re not legal. No crew showed and since this was the last US bound flight, customs had closed with no ability to get a replacement crew through to operate, so canceled.
Had we been made aware of a ramp crew delay before we even sat down, would have likely gone back up for a coffee or chatted at the door and guess what, the outcome would have been the same.
Now before you go blaming the ramp crew, they were under specific company directives not to go over their day, no OT allowed, so they ran out of day themselves and had to go.
I can unequivocally state, I have never ever heard of or seen a crew intentionally delay their flight to end up not able to complete it, we are mission oriented and It is far more likely they knew something that was going affect the flight regardless of what they did.

Also, it is very clear now what your motivation is, a disgruntled passenger who doesn’t have all the facts.

[Bingo Fuel]

It would be good if the admin on this website actually banned people. And helped keep the trolls away. But it seems like they are nowhere to be found.

Seems like only 2 of the mods are active. Most of the listed mods haven't been online for years.

[acountant]

I am a critic when I think a crew doesn’t care, I fly commercially a lot, and I have never seen this.

Find this very hard to believe. Not buying.

I've seen it personally 5 times in 2 years. 3 times on WS, 2 times on AC. Never on Porter or Flair. Haven't flown Lynx so I can't speak to them.

Just like you say my opinion doesn't matter since I'm not a "pilot", your opinion doesn't matter on this either since you're part of the group causing the issue, not the group impacted by it. Sure you've never seen it... doesn't support your narrative as a pilot.

What exactly did you witness? Seriously, did you witness a couple pilots catching up with each other knowing something you don’t know, like they’ve been informed that there is a delay of some sort and there is literally nothing they can do about it. Getting in their seats will not change the outcome of them going over their day.
Let me tell you a story, I had a very long two leg day scheduled, but the final destination posted a 3 hour ground delay which if everything went well we could do it. We were in our seats waiting for the ground crew who was busy on another flight since we were delayed obviously our dedicated crew was doing something else, anyhow a crew finally shows up and loads us up. They hand us the bag count and we tell them we’re clear for the door, which means close the door and pull the bridge. I’m watching and my crew drives away, bridge still connected. I called ops and said our crew just left and we basically have a minute and we’re not legal. No crew showed and since this was the last US bound flight, customs had closed with no ability to get a replacement crew through to operate, so canceled.
Had we been made aware of a ramp crew delay before we even sat down, would have likely gone back up for a coffee or chatted at the door and guess what, the outcome would have been the same.
Now before you go blaming the ramp crew, they were under specific company directives not to go over their day, no OT allowed, so they ran out of day themselves and had to go.
I can unequivocally state, I have never ever heard of or seen a crew intentionally delay their flight to end up not able to complete it, we are mission oriented and It is far more likely they knew something that was going affect the flight regardless of what they did.

Also, it is very clear now what your motivation is, a disgruntled passenger who doesn’t have all the facts.

My bad...that sounds like a long day...

Thank you keeping your crew & passengers safe

Pilots in this country are seriously under paid & under appreciated