I heard it is relatively cheap to purchase your own plane, spend the money you would be spending to rent aircraft anyway and log a lot of time. Is this thought affordable for the average person,
Maybe go halves with someone?
logging time on your own aircraft
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
It depends on a lot of things, most notably your aviation experience. If you are an experienced aircraft owner and pilot, you can find a good airplane, pay a fair price for it, keep maintenance expenses reasonable, and sell the airplane for more than what you paid for it. Under these conditions operating it will cost about half of what renting it would be.
However if you have all this knowledge and experience, you would not need to build time in the first place.
The reality is that the vast majority of aircraft in Canada are currently overpriced. Without a blue book and experience applying it you stand a very good chance of paying more than the aircraft is worth.
Maintenance can be very expensive if you just drop off the airplane and tell the AME to fix it. Even a small thing like a nose wheel shimmy can run over $1000 because they end up changing all the bushings, shimmy damper, and steering mechanism before they find the actual problem.
Unfortunately the only way to learn all this is to be around airplanes for years and years. And not just around airplanes but in the right setting with the right people.
If you know an experienced pilot/owner who wants to go halfers with you then you can learn the easy way instead of the hard way but beware: Partnerships must be made with partners who agree on how the airplane is going to be used, maintained, insured, and upgraded. You should never go into a partnership on an airplane unless you are prepared for the worst case scenario: Your partner bails and you are left holding the bag. Never say "It will only be $500 a month because we will split the cost in two". If you are not able to cover the original $1000, you are in danger of losing your investment.
If you are mechanically inclined and have lots of knowledgeable people around you who can and will help and you are going to spend a lot of time learning as much as possible about aircraft maintenance and operations, go for it. Not because it will be cheaper but because the skills you will learn will make you far more employable than the next guy knocking on the door.
However if you have all this knowledge and experience, you would not need to build time in the first place.
The reality is that the vast majority of aircraft in Canada are currently overpriced. Without a blue book and experience applying it you stand a very good chance of paying more than the aircraft is worth.
Maintenance can be very expensive if you just drop off the airplane and tell the AME to fix it. Even a small thing like a nose wheel shimmy can run over $1000 because they end up changing all the bushings, shimmy damper, and steering mechanism before they find the actual problem.
Unfortunately the only way to learn all this is to be around airplanes for years and years. And not just around airplanes but in the right setting with the right people.
If you know an experienced pilot/owner who wants to go halfers with you then you can learn the easy way instead of the hard way but beware: Partnerships must be made with partners who agree on how the airplane is going to be used, maintained, insured, and upgraded. You should never go into a partnership on an airplane unless you are prepared for the worst case scenario: Your partner bails and you are left holding the bag. Never say "It will only be $500 a month because we will split the cost in two". If you are not able to cover the original $1000, you are in danger of losing your investment.
If you are mechanically inclined and have lots of knowledgeable people around you who can and will help and you are going to spend a lot of time learning as much as possible about aircraft maintenance and operations, go for it. Not because it will be cheaper but because the skills you will learn will make you far more employable than the next guy knocking on the door.
And if you scratch your ass without first clipping your nails, you risk infection? Life has it's risks. But if you do your hyomework, there is no reason you cant log time on your own aircraft...and learn a lot along the way...and sell your plane when you have logged the required time? Any moron can rent an airplane!
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Or you could build your own and avoid a lot of operating costs, such as being at the mercy of AMO's. And having to pay outrageous prices for certified parts.
Cat
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Ah, but what you can learn from owning one! It's not for everyone, this is for sure...but, still, it can be done...and often (okay, not that often) is.
No, on secont thought...rent! Because you really need to WANT to buy, before you buy.
But, I do know a few aircraft owners who wouldn't replace the pride of ownership with a rental.....for any reason....but thinking about it now, they are all a little wierd?
No, on secont thought...rent! Because you really need to WANT to buy, before you buy.
But, I do know a few aircraft owners who wouldn't replace the pride of ownership with a rental.....for any reason....but thinking about it now, they are all a little wierd?
All the information appreciated!
rent an airplane something goes wrong with it someone elses problem. I'm still working on my private licence and i came across the idea of building time on your own plane in a book , definately sounded like a good idea on paper, seems more like a rich man's idea.
rent an airplane something goes wrong with it someone elses problem. I'm still working on my private licence and i came across the idea of building time on your own plane in a book , definately sounded like a good idea on paper, seems more like a rich man's idea.
-
Right Seat Captain
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:51 pm
- Location: Various/based CYOW
Another idea would be to get into an already established partnership. Depending on where you are, there are quite a few around. This way, you pay for a share, which can be around $10 000, depending on type of aircraft and number of people in the partnership. You fly it, the mainteneance cost is shared, then you can sell the share when you're done for the same price you got it for. Generally these arrangengents for a plane like a 172 costs about $60/hr to fly wet.
But be sure to think about how often you will fly it. The longer you take, the more money it costs. I know a couple of people who went from 0 to CPL/IFR in one year. In this case, definately worth it. If you take 10 years, you'll be paying the same price as renting, but with more headaches.
But be sure to think about how often you will fly it. The longer you take, the more money it costs. I know a couple of people who went from 0 to CPL/IFR in one year. In this case, definately worth it. If you take 10 years, you'll be paying the same price as renting, but with more headaches.
Pitfalls of Ownership
Quite true what was said above. I bought an aircraft for just this purpose back in 1990. I asked a lot of folks who were owners at one time, present owners, and those who gave up on the idea a long time ago. I took what they all had to say in stride and started shopping.
A good bit of advice given to me by a long-time owner (mostly cessna 140, 150 and 172's over the years). He said to approach the purchase much like you would in buying a tool. Figure out what "tool" you need to accomplish the task at hand. In my case, what I needed was an inexpensive way to put hours in my logbook. Speed wasn't a factor as was IFR capability..... money (or lack thereof) was the critical factor. I also wanted to have fun flying, so I wanted something a little more challenging than a Cessna 150.
After shopping around, the short-list came to a Piper Colt, Aeronca Champ and the Luscombe 8A. All three were relatively inexpensive to purchase, parts easy to come by, and burned about 4-5 gallons per hour. I wanted to keep my maintenance expenses to a minimum, so I went with the Continental 65 powered Luscombe 8A. Sure it has the good ol' fashioned "Armstrong" starter, but then again you don't have to take the "Armstrong" starter to an overhaul shop to change the brushes.
I put about 100 hrs on it during my first year and got severely hosed on my first annual. It wasn't because the airplane was in such deplorable condition, it's just that I really didn't know the AMO doing the job. Chalk it up to experience, but I really should have done my homework on the AMO as well as I did my original purchase.
Another pitfall to ownership is that I got to like my little Luscombe quite a bit; the more I flew it, the more I liked it. To make a long story short, I now have an ATPL and fly for a living.... but look forward to my days off when I can head to the "real" airport and fly a "real" airplane again.... one with the "little wheel" on the back end where it belongs. I wouldn't trade the pride of ownership, and the flexibility of taking it anywhere I want when I want for anything. For me, buying was the best option. Incidentally, my airplane is now "Owner maintained" and henceforth is significantly less expensive to maintain much like a homebuilt. Owning an airplane can really grow on you.
Insurance is actually not all that expensive if you do it right. COPA has been my insurer for some years now. They have always proven to be the least expensive for the last decade now, so I stay with them.
If you are still considering owning, ask COPA if there is a local flight in your area. If not, just hang around the field and talk with the guys. Some might talk your ear off, some might be really enthusiastic about showing you his RV8 project... they're all great people and well worth talking to. If all else fails, just PM me. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.
Cheers
A good bit of advice given to me by a long-time owner (mostly cessna 140, 150 and 172's over the years). He said to approach the purchase much like you would in buying a tool. Figure out what "tool" you need to accomplish the task at hand. In my case, what I needed was an inexpensive way to put hours in my logbook. Speed wasn't a factor as was IFR capability..... money (or lack thereof) was the critical factor. I also wanted to have fun flying, so I wanted something a little more challenging than a Cessna 150.
After shopping around, the short-list came to a Piper Colt, Aeronca Champ and the Luscombe 8A. All three were relatively inexpensive to purchase, parts easy to come by, and burned about 4-5 gallons per hour. I wanted to keep my maintenance expenses to a minimum, so I went with the Continental 65 powered Luscombe 8A. Sure it has the good ol' fashioned "Armstrong" starter, but then again you don't have to take the "Armstrong" starter to an overhaul shop to change the brushes.
I put about 100 hrs on it during my first year and got severely hosed on my first annual. It wasn't because the airplane was in such deplorable condition, it's just that I really didn't know the AMO doing the job. Chalk it up to experience, but I really should have done my homework on the AMO as well as I did my original purchase.
Another pitfall to ownership is that I got to like my little Luscombe quite a bit; the more I flew it, the more I liked it. To make a long story short, I now have an ATPL and fly for a living.... but look forward to my days off when I can head to the "real" airport and fly a "real" airplane again.... one with the "little wheel" on the back end where it belongs. I wouldn't trade the pride of ownership, and the flexibility of taking it anywhere I want when I want for anything. For me, buying was the best option. Incidentally, my airplane is now "Owner maintained" and henceforth is significantly less expensive to maintain much like a homebuilt. Owning an airplane can really grow on you.
Insurance is actually not all that expensive if you do it right. COPA has been my insurer for some years now. They have always proven to be the least expensive for the last decade now, so I stay with them.
If you are still considering owning, ask COPA if there is a local flight in your area. If not, just hang around the field and talk with the guys. Some might talk your ear off, some might be really enthusiastic about showing you his RV8 project... they're all great people and well worth talking to. If all else fails, just PM me. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.
Cheers
I bought a plane before I had my private. In the end it worked out about the same as renting due to some maintenance issues.
The major upside is you can fly when you want and don't have to worry about bringing the plane back at a certain time.
Because of that, I flew a lot more and went on a lot more cross countries. You will definately learn more because you are out on your own. When the weather is lousy or the plane is broken you don't have the school there as a safety net telling you not to go. I found my decision making to be at a higher level than guys with similar time renting from a school. I'm not suggesting you fly a broken airplane in bad weather, but it's good to have to make those calls yourself.
In hindsight I may have looked for a plane that was already set up for night flying and some basic instrument flying. I needed to upgrade my plane for night flying and rent a plane to do my instrument portion of the commercial. 1 VOR would do it.
The major upside is you can fly when you want and don't have to worry about bringing the plane back at a certain time.
Because of that, I flew a lot more and went on a lot more cross countries. You will definately learn more because you are out on your own. When the weather is lousy or the plane is broken you don't have the school there as a safety net telling you not to go. I found my decision making to be at a higher level than guys with similar time renting from a school. I'm not suggesting you fly a broken airplane in bad weather, but it's good to have to make those calls yourself.
In hindsight I may have looked for a plane that was already set up for night flying and some basic instrument flying. I needed to upgrade my plane for night flying and rent a plane to do my instrument portion of the commercial. 1 VOR would do it.
-
Where'd who go?
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:07 pm
- Location: Here, wishing I was there.
Caution
Don't do it. Nothing is less expensive than renting, unless you are going to fly hundreds and hundreds of hours per year.
WWG
WWG
Last edited by Where'd who go? on Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" Don't do it. Nothing is less expensive than renting "
Am I making a big mistake building my Cub?
If it is cheaper to rent do you advise me to go that route, Where'd who go?
Cat
Am I making a big mistake building my Cub?
If it is cheaper to rent do you advise me to go that route, Where'd who go?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Where'd who go?
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:07 pm
- Location: Here, wishing I was there.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
-
Where'd who go?
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:07 pm
- Location: Here, wishing I was there.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
For sure owning your own can be very expensive if you buy the wrong airplane and if you have to rely on AMO's to do your maintenance.
However I do my own maintenance as that is the business I'm in and it is cheaper in for me, and I am careful what I buy.
Building your own is the real answer.
And all the best to you also Where'd who go.
However I do my own maintenance as that is the business I'm in and it is cheaper in for me, and I am careful what I buy.
Building your own is the real answer.
And all the best to you also Where'd who go.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well, in my case, since I do not have the skills to (re?)build or maintain such an aircraft, I would have to say that you are in a more unique position, Cat.Cat Driver wrote: " Don't do it. Nothing is less expensive than renting "
Am I making a big mistake building my Cub?
If it is cheaper to rent do you advise me to go that route, Where'd who go?
Cat
I would suggest that cost/benefit ratio depends on a great many factors, and the skills you have would certainly make all the difference.
Others include (some may have been stated previously):
1) hours flown per year
2) what kind of deal you are able to negotiate with insurance
3) cost for storage/parking/hanger
4) the cost of borrowing to purchase
5) freedom to fly different aircraft (rent a two seater to save costs, but a four seater to take up mom and dad)
...I am sure we could come up with many more.
I am not going to argue that (given the correct set of circumstances) you could save a significant amount of money-- but if something happens (major maintenance, aircraft damage, etc) then you have a greater exposure to risk.
The nice thing about renting is that it is a known cost... it may fluctuate with the price of fuel, but that would occur in any situation.
As is most things in life, the less risk you assume, the greater the upfront cost (and vise-versa). You have to decide how much risk you are comfortable with in your situation.
Just thought I would add my 2 cents.
-Guy
-
mikegtzg
- Rank 5
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:05 am
- Location: 1000' & 66 kts. above Manitoba
I have to agree with some of the posts here of owning an older small taildragger or a homebuilt. If you talk to the local EAA/RAA or COPA members you can often find a well maintained 2 seater that burns 4-5GPH in the 20-25K range. Possibly even less. If you just want to log time at minimal expense. I have recently seen advertised a couple single seat Flybaby's in Canada with A65 Continentals for $8,000-$10,000 CDN. Recovering an older aircraft isn't that tough if you have a place to do it. And recovering supply houses often have detailed manuals and courses on the process. And on older plane needing some TLC can often be purchased for much less.
You will likely enjoy flying it so much you won't want to sell it afterward. As far as the building part. Practically everyone is capable if they want to learn the skillsets as they build. But if you are after getting in the air quickly, this isn't an option.
Homebuilts/owner maintenance aircraft are relatively easy to maintain. There are members in the groups mentioned that can often steer you in the right direction. They are mechanically very simple. (1940's technology)You can also employ an AME to due an annual with you the first tme to show you what/how to inspect the various systems.
Some of these smaller unique aircraft are lots of fun to fly. Why own a Cessna 150/152/172 when you can easily rent one.
You will likely enjoy flying it so much you won't want to sell it afterward. As far as the building part. Practically everyone is capable if they want to learn the skillsets as they build. But if you are after getting in the air quickly, this isn't an option.
Homebuilts/owner maintenance aircraft are relatively easy to maintain. There are members in the groups mentioned that can often steer you in the right direction. They are mechanically very simple. (1940's technology)You can also employ an AME to due an annual with you the first tme to show you what/how to inspect the various systems.
Some of these smaller unique aircraft are lots of fun to fly. Why own a Cessna 150/152/172 when you can easily rent one.
