Jazz or Porter?

[UongYoungFung]

Hi all,

So I am really greatful to be accepted into both party, but can only choose one. I have weighed my options and now just wondering if anyone who is/were in either sides can give me more insight on what would be the better choice for me?

I am mostly looking to move forward so this is mostly a stepping stone, unless things change drastically that makes me stay. Porter is keeping me on the Q400 while Jazz does have 3 options to choose from.

Some questions I have.
How are the base chosen at Porter?
Work life and culture at both?
Benefit differences at both?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi all,

So I am really greatful to be accepted into both party, but can only choose one. I have weighed my options and now just wondering if anyone who is/were in either sides can give me more insight on what would be the better choice for me?

I am mostly looking to move forward so this is mostly a stepping stone, unless things change drastically that makes me stay. Porter is keeping me on the Q400 while Jazz does have 3 options to choose from.

Some questions I have.
How are the base chosen at Porter?
Work life and culture at both?
Benefit differences at both?

I can’t speak about the q400 side of the operation at porter. But what I can say about it, if you decide to join Porter; you will get an all important seniority number. This number is the only number that matters. With the expansion plans Porter is presently executing, the potential for a very good career exists at Porter. After a few years on the Q, you will be able to move over to the jet operation. I personally don’t believe porter is a “stepping stone” for most people these days. It can be a career airline if you so desire.

At Jazz, while you might get a jet handed to you on day 1, will likely disappoint in comparison to salary and/or morale, given their current contract and situation.

I believe porter states which base you are hired for in the offer letter prior to you accepting, which is not the case at jazz. Also, you may not get to choose your airplane at jazz. It depends what they are offering for your initial class, and you won’t know until you get there.

I left jazz for Porter. Best move I ever made. But that’s just my two cents.

[cjp]

CDN is on point.

Porter offer states base. No union dues or paycheque cuts that go with it, so you keep more at the end of the month. Q400 operation is stable and established with multiple bases. Bidding over in two years, you carry your seniority, or bid left on the Q, and continue to build your experience. By that point we'll have all 50+ jets and a whack of great routes on the E2. That said, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, we are pulling from our Q side, and they are seeing less attention than the E2 side, so I'm sure they are working hard with lots of flying available, and possibly some jealousy has set in.

Jazz is in absolute disarray right now with an unceetain future - they have no financial tools due to their reliance on their CPA to keep their flight crews other than a vague hope AC will eventually call them, as 4 years of flat pay and reserve is actually an improvement to their WAWCON. I think it's still only people hired prior to COVID at this point moving to AC. I've heard the pile of returned luggage and company material is getting very high in the YYZ office.

Good luck.

[canadian_aviator_4]

If jazz was your only offer I would say take it, however there are so many better companies out there, including porter. Plus they own their flying and not at the whim of a larger enterprise. The AC flow is never guaranteed and
I would argue that if you want to go to AC, it would be faster through porter.
Only negative with porter is as I understand they don’t provide accommodations during initial training.

[Inverted2]

Are you from Ontario? Right now Jazz is sending most new hires to Calgary or Vancouver. Also expect to get the Q400 at Jazz. They aren’t putting very many new hires on the E175 due to people leaving.

That said I would chose Porter. It would be nice to go work for a company with a bright future and growth plans! Unlike here.

[CaptDukeNukem]

That said I would chose Porter. It would be nice to go work for a company with a bright future and growth plans! Unlike here.

You can still choose Porter.

[rudder]

That said I would chose Porter. It would be nice to go work for a company with a bright future and growth plans! Unlike here.

You can still choose Porter.

Just curious - is Porter accepting pilots WITHOUT the E170 endorsement as DEC? Can a Jazz Q400 or CRJ CA with a reasonable experience level expect serious consideration as an E2 DEC, or is that opportunity limited to E170 or large jet (737/757/767) CA only?

[CaptDukeNukem]

That said I would chose Porter. It would be nice to go work for a company with a bright future and growth plans! Unlike here.

You can still choose Porter.

Just curious - is Porter accepting pilots WITHOUT the E170 endorsement as DEC? Can a Jazz Q400 or CRJ CA with a reasonable experience level expect serious consideration as an E2 DEC, or is that opportunity limited to E170 or large jet (737/757/767) CA only?

Yes they sure are. There has been RJ captains. Not sure about outside Q captains getting DEC on the E2. However, the provision for them is in the FOAG.

See attachment below.

[fliter]

If your goal is AC, then Porter. A ton of people moved to AC from Porter recently, some after less than a year of being employed. Whereas at Jazz the flow has all but stopped.

However, if your AC plans fall through and you consider which company would offer better WAWCON and has a more promising potential for a long-term career, then definitely also Porter.

[Hangry]

With the information available today and the reality of what Jazz is turning into it would blow my mind if someone chose Jazz over almost any other airline.

The writing is on the wall. #sad

[Bede]

There's only one reason to go to Jazz these days: if you want to be hired by WestJet.

[rudder]

There's only one reason to go to Jazz these days: if you want to be hired by WestJet.

Or Porter….. if you are one of the fortunate few to get the E-jet.

[cdnavater]

This will surprise Dukem, I would go to Porter, they have bright future and unending growth plans, possibly wide bodies in the future.

[braaap Braap]

This will surprise Dukem, I would go to Porter, they have bright future and unending growth plans, possibly wide bodies in the future.

I think you referenced the widebody rumour in another post. I've never heard it.

Hi all,

So I am really greatful to be accepted into both party, but can only choose one. I have weighed my options and now just wondering if anyone who is/were in either sides can give me more insight on what would be the better choice for me?

I am mostly looking to move forward so this is mostly a stepping stone, unless things change drastically that makes me stay. Porter is keeping me on the Q400 while Jazz does have 3 options to choose from.

Some questions I have.
How are the base chosen at Porter?
Work life and culture at both?
Benefit differences at both?

I'll provide my opinion from the Porter Dash side left seat.

I do think there is great opportunity at Porter. We have FOs on the Dash leaving for Big Red after 1 year on property. You also have the opportunity to secure a seniority number before the wave crests if you chose to stay (I think the wave crests in about 8 months not accounting for attrition).

YTZ FOs are currently overstaffed so I think most people work ~12 days a month. They got a decent raise so I don't think there's the same financial stress as earlier this year. YHZ & YQT are short FOs after a bunch of upgrades so you'd be working ~16-18 days/month.

IMO, unless you are looking for the personal/professional growth that comes with the upgrade. Avoid the Dash left seat. Chances are by the time you will start feeling comfortable to upgrade; your fleet lock will almost be over (if they even still have it in your offer letter) and you can go join the fun - probably make the same money. With our short staffing, new drafting/reassignment rules, and bad pairings; the Dash left seat is not a fun place to be.

[braaap Braap]

CDN is on point.

Porter offer states base. No union dues or paycheque cuts that go with it, so you keep more at the end of the month. Q400 operation is stable and established with multiple bases. Bidding over in two years, you carry your seniority, or bid left on the Q, and continue to build your experience. By that point we'll have all 50+ jets and a whack of great routes on the E2. That said, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, we are pulling from our Q side, and they are seeing less attention than the E2 side, so I'm sure they are working hard with lots of flying available, and possibly some jealousy has set in.

Jazz is in absolute disarray right now with an unceetain future - they have no financial tools due to their reliance on their CPA to keep their flight crews other than a vague hope AC will eventually call them, as 4 years of flat pay and reserve is actually an improvement to their WAWCON. I think it's still only people hired prior to COVID at this point moving to AC. I've heard the pile of returned luggage and company material is getting very high in the YYZ office.

Good luck.

What's a paycheque cut? I would gladly pay the 1.85% just for access to the Orange card. Call it an insurance premium. I don't think many are jealous of E2 crews. We're happy you're here, happy this crazy plan appears to be working, happy and excited to see the new routes and opportunities. Our frustrations are towards the leadership and FOAG. Took no time to dismantle the work rules when AG arrived and now everything gets dragged out, strung along, and met with canned responses.

[Chaxterium]

Just curious - is Porter accepting pilots WITHOUT the E170 endorsement as DEC? Can a Jazz Q400 or CRJ CA with a reasonable experience level expect serious consideration as an E2 DEC, or is that opportunity limited to E170 or large jet (737/757/767) CA only?

Porter is absolutely taking DECs without any E170 experience. But I'm quite certain that they're looking for jet PIC at the very least. I know of a few DECs that came over with just CRJ time.

Keep in mind that the training, especially as a DEC isn't easy. There's a lot. Porter's SOPs are a little funky in a few different ways and when you combine trying to learn the SOPs, and learning a new company, and learning a new type—especially if that type is vastly different from anything you've flown in the past—it can lead to an unfortunate outcome.

If you've got a decent amount of time, but no jet time then coming over as an FO on the E2 isn't a bad idea. The upgrade program is in the works and as Duke mentioned previously getting a seniority number now is huge.

To the original poster, I mean no disrespect to Jazz but with the current situations at Porter and Jazz I don't know how anyone would choose Jazz at this point. Porter is not perfect by any means but it feels like Porter's future is opening while Jazz future is closing. I hope I'm wrong. I don't want to see Jazz go anywhere and I hope they can turn that ship around but it's a tall order.

Add to that the fact that the quickest way to AC is basically any 705 other than Jazz and it's a no brainer.

Porter's culture is really good. Morale is high. The company has shown willingness to make significant improvements. But make no mistake, many more improvements are still needed.

For example, as someone else mentioned Porter does not provide accommodations during initial or recurrent training if you are a YYZ based pilot. I was very disappointed when I learned this. I ended up spending a little over $2k on Airbnb during the ground school. The good news is that the majority of the ground school is now remote but still it's surprising to me that accommodations aren't provided during training.

One other area in which Porter is better than Jazz: You will know in your interview which base you are being interviewed for. With Jazz you won't find out your base or equipment until after you are hired.

My last comment: I've been flying for 15 years. I've worked for a number of companies in that time and I am happier here than anywhere else I've ever been. There's a lot of excitement, lots of change, and the E2 is a wonderful plane to fly. My biggest gripes are the damn VNAV descents and the fact that the switches for the external lights are backwards. But what are ya gonna do.

[CaptDukeNukem]

This will surprise Dukem, I would go to Porter, they have bright future and unending growth plans, possibly wide bodies in the future.

Lol. Awww, we’re friends again!

[cdnavater]

Just curious - is Porter accepting pilots WITHOUT the E170 endorsement as DEC? Can a Jazz Q400 or CRJ CA with a reasonable experience level expect serious consideration as an E2 DEC, or is that opportunity limited to E170 or large jet (737/757/767) CA only?

Porter is absolutely taking DECs without any E170 experience. But I'm quite certain that they're looking for jet PIC at the very least. I know of a few DECs that came over with just CRJ time.

Keep in mind that the training, especially as a DEC isn't easy. There's a lot. Porter's SOPs are a little funky in a few different ways and when you combine trying to learn the SOPs, and learning a new company, and learning a new type—especially if that type is vastly different from anything you've flown in the past—it can lead to an unfortunate outcome.

I’m going out on a limb but you have no idea who rudder is, my guess he’s sitting with 20,000 jet PIC, pretty sure it includes 757 time. I’m thinking he’s curious about taking early retirement at Jazz to have a little fun at Porter, he may respond but that’s my guess.
Have you had many DEC unfortunate outcomes?

[Inverted2]

That said I would chose Porter. It would be nice to go work for a company with a bright future and growth plans! Unlike here.

You can still choose Porter.

It’s tempting. If things get worse at Jazz it’s a possibility but I have quite a few years in and a DB pension (for now).

[cdnavater]

To braap braap,
The wide body rumour was from what I consider to be a reliable source, keep in mind it was mention as it’s being hinted at by certain managers as a carrot, so perhaps it hasn’t made its rounds quite yet. You know, if I tell you this you gotta promise…..

[braaap Braap]

To braap braap,
The wide body rumour was from what I consider to be a reliable source, keep in mind it was mention as it’s being hinted at by certain managers as a carrot, so perhaps it hasn’t made its rounds quite yet. You know, if I tell you this you gotta promise…..

Hilarious. Not sure what's more out there: Widebodies or Embraers at YTZ

[cjp]

CDN is on point.

Porter offer states base. No union dues or paycheque cuts that go with it, so you keep more at the end of the month. Q400 operation is stable and established with multiple bases. Bidding over in two years, you carry your seniority, or bid left on the Q, and continue to build your experience. By that point we'll have all 50+ jets and a whack of great routes on the E2. That said, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, we are pulling from our Q side, and they are seeing less attention than the E2 side, so I'm sure they are working hard with lots of flying available, and possibly some jealousy has set in.

Jazz is in absolute disarray right now with an unceetain future - they have no financial tools due to their reliance on their CPA to keep their flight crews other than a vague hope AC will eventually call them, as 4 years of flat pay and reserve is actually an improvement to their WAWCON. I think it's still only people hired prior to COVID at this point moving to AC. I've heard the pile of returned luggage and company material is getting very high in the YYZ office.

Good luck.

What's a paycheque cut? I would gladly pay the 1.85% just for access to the Orange card. Call it an insurance premium. I don't think many are jealous of E2 crews. We're happy you're here, happy this crazy plan appears to be working, happy and excited to see the new routes and opportunities. Our frustrations are towards the leadership and FOAG. Took no time to dismantle the work rules when AG arrived and now everything gets dragged out, strung along, and met with canned responses.

There's more cuts to your Jazz paycheque than just the union dues. I've heard the LTD/STD - healtcare portion is painful. Granted, they get a decent benefits package for that price. I didn't mean jealous of the DEC or E2 crews, but moreso jealous of the attention the new operation was/has been receiving - particularly the Q OG side getting the short straw on callsign without any debate - sort of signalling priorities. I would've thought you were referring to BC - I don't know why AG is not triggering a name. The FOAG I thought was mostly composed of former Porter Q drivers and favoured PAL, but I have heard more and more grumblings about our inability to make progress on important matters.

When you coming over?

[rudder]

Just curious - is Porter accepting pilots WITHOUT the E170 endorsement as DEC? Can a Jazz Q400 or CRJ CA with a reasonable experience level expect serious consideration as an E2 DEC, or is that opportunity limited to E170 or large jet (737/757/767) CA only?

Porter is absolutely taking DECs without any E170 experience. But I'm quite certain that they're looking for jet PIC at the very least. I know of a few DECs that came over with just CRJ time.

Keep in mind that the training, especially as a DEC isn't easy. There's a lot. Porter's SOPs are a little funky in a few different ways and when you combine trying to learn the SOPs, and learning a new company, and learning a new type—especially if that type is vastly different from anything you've flown in the past—it can lead to an unfortunate outcome.

I’m going out on a limb but you have no idea who rudder is, my guess he’s sitting with 20,000 jet PIC, pretty sure it includes 757 time. I’m thinking he’s curious about taking early retirement at Jazz to have a little fun at Porter, he may respond but that’s my guess.
Have you had many DEC unfortunate outcomes?

It was more about assessing Jazz’s exposure to losing not only e-jet pilots, but CRJ and Q400 CA as well to the Porter DEC opportunity.

[cdnavater]

Porter is absolutely taking DECs without any E170 experience. But I'm quite certain that they're looking for jet PIC at the very least. I know of a few DECs that came over with just CRJ time.

Keep in mind that the training, especially as a DEC isn't easy. There's a lot. Porter's SOPs are a little funky in a few different ways and when you combine trying to learn the SOPs, and learning a new company, and learning a new type—especially if that type is vastly different from anything you've flown in the past—it can lead to an unfortunate outcome.

I’m going out on a limb but you have no idea who rudder is, my guess he’s sitting with 20,000 jet PIC, pretty sure it includes 757 time. I’m thinking he’s curious about taking early retirement at Jazz to have a little fun at Porter, he may respond but that’s my guess.
Have you had many DEC unfortunate outcomes?

It was more about assessing Jazz’s exposure to losing not only e-jet pilots, but CRJ and Q400 CA as well to the Porter DEC opportunity.

Ahh, fair enough, although in my opinion I think we’ve likely hit the point were most that could go DEC on the E2 are probably gone. Now it will be those who are Captains on all three who are still hoping for flow and whether or not they cut bait, my guess since some are flowing they will wait and see.
Most of the new hires are not marketable, most certainly not DEC candidates, so we’ll see if Porter start to grab a bunch of FOs from us.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m going out on a limb but you have no idea who rudder is, my guess he’s sitting with 20,000 jet PIC, pretty sure it includes 757 time. I’m thinking he’s curious about taking early retirement at Jazz to have a little fun at Porter, he may respond but that’s my guess.
Have you had many DEC unfortunate outcomes?

It was more about assessing Jazz’s exposure to losing not only e-jet pilots, but CRJ and Q400 CA as well to the Porter DEC opportunity.

Ahh, fair enough, although in my opinion I think we’ve likely hit the point were most that could go DEC on the E2 are probably gone. Now it will be those who are Captains on all three who are still hoping for flow and whether or not they cut bait, my guess since some are flowing they will wait and see.
Most of the new hires are not marketable, most certainly not DEC candidates, so we’ll see if Porter start to grab a bunch of FOs from us.

Already happening. There’s been RJ FOs doing E2 FO.

Edit: and some with less than a year at jazz