Jazz or Porter?

[cdnavater]

It was more about assessing Jazz’s exposure to losing not only e-jet pilots, but CRJ and Q400 CA as well to the Porter DEC opportunity.

Ahh, fair enough, although in my opinion I think we’ve likely hit the point were most that could go DEC on the E2 are probably gone. Now it will be those who are Captains on all three who are still hoping for flow and whether or not they cut bait, my guess since some are flowing they will wait and see.
Most of the new hires are not marketable, most certainly not DEC candidates, so we’ll see if Porter start to grab a bunch of FOs from us.

Already happening. There’s been RJ FOs doing E2 FO.

Edit: and some with less than a year at jazz

Any idea what the total time o these pilots is?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Ahh, fair enough, although in my opinion I think we’ve likely hit the point were most that could go DEC on the E2 are probably gone. Now it will be those who are Captains on all three who are still hoping for flow and whether or not they cut bait, my guess since some are flowing they will wait and see.
Most of the new hires are not marketable, most certainly not DEC candidates, so we’ll see if Porter start to grab a bunch of FOs from us.

Already happening. There’s been RJ FOs doing E2 FO.

Edit: and some with less than a year at jazz

Any idea what the total time o these pilots is?

I think between 1500-2000. Can’t be sure.

[cdnavater]

Already happening. There’s been RJ FOs doing E2 FO.

Edit: and some with less than a year at jazz

Any idea what the total time o these pilots is?

I think between 1500-2000. Can’t be sure.

With those times, our current FOs should be ready for you in about 18 months,

[Westerncanuck]

CDN is on point.

Porter offer states base. No union dues or paycheque cuts that go with it, so you keep more at the end of the month. Q400 operation is stable and established with multiple bases. Bidding over in two years, you carry your seniority, or bid left on the Q, and continue to build your experience. By that point we'll have all 50+ jets and a whack of great routes on the E2. That said, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, we are pulling from our Q side, and they are seeing less attention than the E2 side, so I'm sure they are working hard with lots of flying available, and possibly some jealousy has set in.

Jazz is in absolute disarray right now with an unceetain future - they have no financial tools due to their reliance on their CPA to keep their flight crews other than a vague hope AC will eventually call them, as 4 years of flat pay and reserve is actually an improvement to their WAWCON. I think it's still only people hired prior to COVID at this point moving to AC. I've heard the pile of returned luggage and company material is getting very high in the YYZ office.

Good luck.

What's a paycheque cut? I would gladly pay the 1.85% just for access to the Orange card. Call it an insurance premium. I don't think many are jealous of E2 crews. We're happy you're here, happy this crazy plan appears to be working, happy and excited to see the new routes and opportunities. Our frustrations are towards the leadership and FOAG. Took no time to dismantle the work rules when AG arrived and now everything gets dragged out, strung along, and met with canned responses.

There's more cuts to your Jazz paycheque than just the union dues. I've heard the LTD/STD - healtcare portion is painful. Granted, they get a decent benefits package for that price. I didn't mean jealous of the DEC or E2 crews, but moreso jealous of the attention the new operation was/has been receiving - particularly the Q OG side getting the short straw on callsign without any debate - sort of signalling priorities. I would've thought you were referring to BC - I don't know why AG is not triggering a name. The FOAG I thought was mostly composed of former Porter Q drivers and favoured PAL, but I have heard more and more grumblings about our inability to make progress on important matters.

When you coming over?

That’s incorrect. All benefits are paid by the company except STD.

[cjp]

What's a paycheque cut? I would gladly pay the 1.85% just for access to the Orange card. Call it an insurance premium. I don't think many are jealous of E2 crews. We're happy you're here, happy this crazy plan appears to be working, happy and excited to see the new routes and opportunities. Our frustrations are towards the leadership and FOAG. Took no time to dismantle the work rules when AG arrived and now everything gets dragged out, strung along, and met with canned responses.

There's more cuts to your Jazz paycheque than just the union dues. I've heard the LTD/STD - healtcare portion is painful. Granted, they get a decent benefits package for that price. I didn't mean jealous of the DEC or E2 crews, but moreso jealous of the attention the new operation was/has been receiving - particularly the Q OG side getting the short straw on callsign without any debate - sort of signalling priorities. I would've thought you were referring to BC - I don't know why AG is not triggering a name. The FOAG I thought was mostly composed of former Porter Q drivers and favoured PAL, but I have heard more and more grumblings about our inability to make progress on important matters.

When you coming over?

That’s incorrect. All benefits are paid by the company except STD.

No arguing with you, I thought it was both, because the deduction amount I had heard seemed unreasonable for it to only be STD.

[braaap Braap]

There's more cuts to your Jazz paycheque than just the union dues. I've heard the LTD/STD - healtcare portion is painful. Granted, they get a decent benefits package for that price. I didn't mean jealous of the DEC or E2 crews, but moreso jealous of the attention the new operation was/has been receiving - particularly the Q OG side getting the short straw on callsign without any debate - sort of signalling priorities.

I see what you mean. Ya I think that's accurate. While I don't think the callsign is as big of an issue as many have made it; it is symbolic of the afterthought that the Dash operation has begun.

I would've thought you were referring to BC - I don't know why AG is not triggering a name. The FOAG I thought was mostly composed of former Porter Q drivers and favoured PAL,

I am enjoying BC's leadership, he appears to be making genuine efforts to relate and connect with the pilot groups. AG is Director of Crew Resources, and while he is coming across as a very competent/intelligent/well experienced person. He has also brought with him these terrible work rules that Air Canada/ACPA came up with. He is also so quick to hide behind the canned phrases "we're actively managing..." "we're actively discussing with the FOAG..."

but I have heard more and more grumblings about our inability to make progress on important matters.

That's just par for the course. Without the structure/power of the collective bargaining process, the only forces that impact our ability to make improvements are recruitment/retention and fear of unionization.

When you coming over?

Lord knows

[CaptDukeNukem]

What's a paycheque cut? I would gladly pay the 1.85% just for access to the Orange card. Call it an insurance premium. I don't think many are jealous of E2 crews. We're happy you're here, happy this crazy plan appears to be working, happy and excited to see the new routes and opportunities. Our frustrations are towards the leadership and FOAG. Took no time to dismantle the work rules when AG arrived and now everything gets dragged out, strung along, and met with canned responses.

There's more cuts to your Jazz paycheque than just the union dues. I've heard the LTD/STD - healtcare portion is painful. Granted, they get a decent benefits package for that price. I didn't mean jealous of the DEC or E2 crews, but moreso jealous of the attention the new operation was/has been receiving - particularly the Q OG side getting the short straw on callsign without any debate - sort of signalling priorities. I would've thought you were referring to BC - I don't know why AG is not triggering a name. The FOAG I thought was mostly composed of former Porter Q drivers and favoured PAL, but I have heard more and more grumblings about our inability to make progress on important matters.

When you coming over?

That’s incorrect. All benefits are paid by the company except STD.

It was not completely paid by the company until recently when you gave up your souls to the devil again.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Any idea what the total time o these pilots is?

I think between 1500-2000. Can’t be sure.

With those times, our current FOs should be ready for you in about 18 months,

Lol.

[Westerncanuck]

There's more cuts to your Jazz paycheque than just the union dues. I've heard the LTD/STD - healtcare portion is painful. Granted, they get a decent benefits package for that price. I didn't mean jealous of the DEC or E2 crews, but moreso jealous of the attention the new operation was/has been receiving - particularly the Q OG side getting the short straw on callsign without any debate - sort of signalling priorities. I would've thought you were referring to BC - I don't know why AG is not triggering a name. The FOAG I thought was mostly composed of former Porter Q drivers and favoured PAL, but I have heard more and more grumblings about our inability to make progress on important matters.

When you coming over?

That’s incorrect. All benefits are paid by the company except STD.

It was not completely paid by the company until recently when you gave up your souls to the devil again.

Sure pal. That 30% increase in take home pay is killing me.

We'll see what happens to your 'contract' in the next downturn. Didn't Porter lay everyone off during COVID? That must have been fun.

[CaptDukeNukem]

That’s incorrect. All benefits are paid by the company except STD.

It was not completely paid by the company until recently when you gave up your souls to the devil again.

Sure pal. That 30% increase in take home pay is killing me.

We'll see what happens to your 'contract' in the next downturn. Didn't Porter lay everyone off during COVID? That must have been fun.

Oh and jazz didn’t lay off a single employee? I don’t think a single person at porter is upset from having been laid off.

Speaking of contracts, how’s that one with air Canada going? You know the one where you have 100% of express flying? Or the one with 60% flow. You sold your soul for a mediocre increase in take home pay. And used new hires as bargaining chips. (Reduced 30% flow) *clap clap*

[GIVCE!]

Um new hires at Jazz got a 50% raise. If you don’t have the credentials to go to AC directly you need to gain those organically or wait for your ‘chance’ at flow. Everything shouldn’t just be ‘given’ to you….

[CaptDukeNukem]

Um new hires at Jazz got a 50% raise. If you don’t have the credentials to go to AC directly you need to gain those organically or wait for your ‘chance’ at flow. Everything shouldn’t just be ‘given’ to you….

I must be out of touch then. What’s the year 1 FO pay?

[8895]

Porter for sure. Whether you stay there or want to move onto AC down the road it easily beats out jazz as the better option.

[flyingcanuck]

Um new hires at Jazz got a 50% raise. If you don’t have the credentials to go to AC directly you need to gain those organically or wait for your ‘chance’ at flow. Everything shouldn’t just be ‘given’ to you….

50% of nothing is still nothing..

[CaptDukeNukem]

Um new hires at Jazz got a 50% raise. If you don’t have the credentials to go to AC directly you need to gain those organically or wait for your ‘chance’ at flow. Everything shouldn’t just be ‘given’ to you….

50% of nothing is still nothing..

Yup. Also, pretty sure it’s less than year 1 FO porter, dash or jet. But I’ll wait to hear the exact figure.

And I vaguely remember jazz pilots signing a 17 year deal (crazy….i know) in order to secure both flow and scope. These arguments have been made for settling with slightly lower pay. And none of those have been upheld by big red. There is one clear winner here, and it ain’t jazz.

[Hysteria]

Um new hires at Jazz got a 50% raise. If you don’t have the credentials to go to AC directly you need to gain those organically or wait for your ‘chance’ at flow. Everything shouldn’t just be ‘given’ to you….

50% of nothing is still nothing..

Yup. Also, pretty sure it’s less than year 1 FO porter, dash or jet. But I’ll wait to hear the exact figure.

And I vaguely remember jazz pilots signing a 17 year deal (crazy….i know) in order to secure both flow and scope. These arguments have been made for settling with slightly lower pay. And none of those have been upheld by big red. There is one clear winner here, and it ain’t jazz.

Yr1 Jazz FO: 64/hr
Yr1 Porter Q400 FO: 72/hr

[Chaxterium]

Yr1 Jazz FO: 64/hr
Yr1 Porter Q400 FO: 72/hr

And this is after the 50% raise?

[Hysteria]

Yr1 Jazz FO: 64/hr
Yr1 Porter Q400 FO: 72/hr

And this is after the 50% raise?

Yeah, I read these exact numbers on previous forums

[CaptDukeNukem]

There ya go. Thanks for the numbers. To all new hires at jazz, the seniors sold you down the river to allow PAL to fly express routes and reduced flow. (30%)

Good work everyone. Aim higher.



Edit: I can’t wait for someone from jazz to explain how their 50% raise or 30% take home increase was worth signing. Everyone is listening. The floor is yours, literally and figuratively.

[cdnavater]

There ya go. Thanks for the numbers. To all new hires at jazz, the seniors sold you down the river to allow PAL to fly express routes and reduced flow. (30%)

Good work everyone. Aim higher.



Edit: I can’t wait for someone from jazz to explain how their 50% raise or 30% take home increase was worth signing. Everyone is listening. The floor is yours, literally and figuratively.

I’m not sure you have a complete understanding of our situation, the contract is in effect until 2035 with a no strike clause.
AC needed and wanted labour stability from us and used very effective methods to make that happen back in 2015 and then an extension was added to it.
The recent vote was for free money and predictably did not improve the attraction and retention issues but there was no real downside to voting yes. I will easily crack 200k next year, this year just shy and no I don’t work OT, last OT was March.
As for year one FO, it’s at least 20k short of the minimum it should be and it was more but again AC intervened and we ended up with less.
Now, here we are four or so months later and still losing pilots and hiring instructors, yet AC has not even hinted at upping it again, to all the vote no and they’ll come back, this is literally proof that you were wrong.

To be perfectly clear, this recent pay raise was similar to your benchmarking, they didn’t have to and the contract was NOT extended further, a couple little gives that are not permanent were in it but the reality is, I haven’t seen any contract trainers on the schedule but heard a couple retired Jazz trainers were coming back as contractors. I’m quite happy with the new pay, it’s very noticeable, maybe more coming but I won’t bank on that. I think they would prefer to shrink us than pay us more.

[AirCandida]

One should be asking why a new AC FO makes the same as a new Jazz FO

[cdnavater]

And let’s be honest here, the only reason Porter(Q ops) is paying more than Jazz now is because other companies have been raising theirs. They would have been quite happy to leave the pay as is if attracting pilots was not difficult.
Jazz will either raise the pay again after AC contract negotiations are done or not and just keep reducing the fleet to what they can handle with the 400 left who are just waiting for retirement and low time in the right seat.

[braaap Braap]

And let’s be honest here, the only reason Porter(Q ops) is paying more than Jazz now is because other companies have been raising theirs. They would have been quite happy to leave the pay as is if attracting pilots was not difficult.
Jazz will either raise the pay again after AC contract negotiations are done or not and just keep reducing the fleet to what they can handle with the 400 left who are just waiting for retirement and low time in the right seat.

Ya the number of people here who seem to believe Porter is throwing money at us out of the goodness of their hearts is mind boggling. As if all this can't be walked back when the economic headwind returns - a la Covid Return to service MMG reduction.

[CaptDukeNukem]

And let’s be honest here, the only reason Porter(Q ops) is paying more than Jazz now is because other companies have been raising theirs. They would have been quite happy to leave the pay as is if attracting pilots was not difficult.
Jazz will either raise the pay again after AC contract negotiations are done or not and just keep reducing the fleet to what they can handle with the 400 left who are just waiting for retirement and low time in the right seat.

Ya the number of people here who seem to believe Porter is throwing money at us out of the goodness of their hearts is mind boggling. As if all this can't be walked back when the economic headwind returns - a la Covid Return to service MMG reduction.

They certainly throwing more money than jazz. So…. Until then…….

[braaap Braap]

And let’s be honest here, the only reason Porter(Q ops) is paying more than Jazz now is because other companies have been raising theirs. They would have been quite happy to leave the pay as is if attracting pilots was not difficult.
Jazz will either raise the pay again after AC contract negotiations are done or not and just keep reducing the fleet to what they can handle with the 400 left who are just waiting for retirement and low time in the right seat.

Ya the number of people here who seem to believe Porter is throwing money at us out of the goodness of their hearts is mind boggling. As if all this can't be walked back when the economic headwind returns - a la Covid Return to service MMG reduction.

They certainly throwing more money than jazz. So…. Until then…….

Just staying ahead of Jazz? Is that what we’re aspiring to?