No Incentive to Upgrade

[clrdleftbase]

YTZ Dash 8 FO here. I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on the current Dash to E2 transfer issue and if it's even worth upgrading given the current uncertainty. I've been here for about a year now, and still sitting reserve due to lack of FO flying in YTZ. Originally I was thinking of bidding for an upgrade early next year but now I just don't think it's worth it. Given the recent February transfer results and the company already going back on its FOAG commitment, it seems probable that if you upgrade you might never be allowed to flow. As of now the safest bet seems to be bidding E2 FO as soon as you can, make almost the same money as a Q captain, and then bid an upgrade there as soon as there is an upgrade program in place. The complete lack of YOS transfer is another major issue but I'll leave that for another day.

I still have a year on my fleet lock which also hopefully goes away soon, but there's lots of frustration on the line right now and talking to many of my colleagues, they are all abandoning plans to upgrade on the dash too.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I still have a year on my fleet lock which also hopefully goes away soon, but there's lots of frustration on the line right now and talking to many of my colleagues, they are all abandoning plans to upgrade on the dash too.

You said it yourself. Chill for a year and stop worrying. I’ve always advocated seniority number is the only number that matters. When you get onto the jet you’ll be quite happy.

If you feel mistreated or left out, then fire off a couple resumes else where. At the very least, you can ask the interviewers the questions that matter to you.

But don’t let anyone tell you how you should feel.

[braaap Braap]

Dash upgrade is a trap. Unless youre interested for the professional/personal goal of getting MPIC in your logbook you’re better off enjoying the cushy YTZ FO schedule for another year and then head over to join the party.

[LAteNightDash]

YTZ Dash 8 FO here. I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on the current Dash to E2 transfer issue and if it's even worth upgrading given the current uncertainty. I've been here for about a year now, and still sitting reserve due to lack of FO flying in YTZ. Originally I was thinking of bidding for an upgrade early next year but now I just don't think it's worth it. Given the recent February transfer results and the company already going back on its FOAG commitment, it seems probable that if you upgrade you might never be allowed to flow. As of now the safest bet seems to be bidding E2 FO as soon as you can, make almost the same money as a Q captain, and then bid an upgrade there as soon as there is an upgrade program in place. The complete lack of YOS transfer is another major issue but I'll leave that for another day.

I still have a year on my fleet lock which also hopefully goes away soon, but there's lots of frustration on the line right now and talking to many of my colleagues, they are all abandoning plans to upgrade on the dash too.

If you upgrade now and hope to wait it out until your number comes up for a direct left seat on the E2, be prepared for 5 to 7 years of dash 8 misery. The captain scheduel isn't going to get better anytime soon. I chose to upgrade and fly the dash for a couple years, as soon as I hit 1000hours of PIC (in a couple months), I will bid over to the right seat on the E2. As for newer Dash FOs I don't see any benifit to upgrading on the Dash unless you want some PIC time for your personal career goals.

[flyinhigh]

I still have a year on my fleet lock which also hopefully goes away soon, but there's lots of frustration on the line right now and talking to many of my colleagues, they are all abandoning plans to upgrade on the dash too.

You said it yourself. Chill for a year and stop worrying. I’ve always advocated seniority number is the only number that matters. When you get onto the jet you’ll be quite happy.

If you feel mistreated or left out, then fire off a couple resumes else where. At the very least, you can ask the interviewers the questions that matter to you.

But don’t let anyone tell you how you should feel.

I love how people from any company that are happy ALWAYS throw this out there. Complete BS.

Even though you say seniority # is number 1, you follow it up with leave your company and start at the bottom again if you’re not happy.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

[flyinhigh]

YTZ Dash 8 FO here. I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on the current Dash to E2 transfer issue and if it's even worth upgrading given the current uncertainty. I've been here for about a year now, and still sitting reserve due to lack of FO flying in YTZ. Originally I was thinking of bidding for an upgrade early next year but now I just don't think it's worth it. Given the recent February transfer results and the company already going back on its FOAG commitment, it seems probable that if you upgrade you might never be allowed to flow. As of now the safest bet seems to be bidding E2 FO as soon as you can, make almost the same money as a Q captain, and then bid an upgrade there as soon as there is an upgrade program in place. The complete lack of YOS transfer is another major issue but I'll leave that for another day.

I still have a year on my fleet lock which also hopefully goes away soon, but there's lots of frustration on the line right now and talking to many of my colleagues, they are all abandoning plans to upgrade on the dash too.

Hang in there, things will get better. Porter is a good company that is going in the right direction….hopefully.

You’ve got significant time invested into this company, and if any fleet locks will be lifted, I would imagine it will be to folks with 1-2 yrs seniority.

Look at it as glass half full. You could be reserve in Pickle Lake sitting right seat on a Hawker 748 lugging 80,000lbs of back breaking cargo in near zero vis flying NDB approaches into gawd knows where.

[DanWEC]

Look at it as glass half full. You could be reserve in Pickle Lake sitting right seat on a Hawker 748 lugging 80,000lbs of back breaking cargo in near zero vis flying NDB approaches into gawd knows where.

Yup. Not that long ago there was a hard min of 3500 hrs to get hired at Porter, and is a relative dream job from pulling frozen wing covers in pitch black at 5am and -30.

[braaap Braap]

I chose to upgrade and fly the dash for a couple years, as soon as I hit 1000hours of PIC (in a couple months), I will bid over to the right seat on the E2.

...and your D8 CA to E2 FO bid will go ignored because it's not about going over to the E2 it about leaving the Dash left seat. This was confirmed by BC in the YYZ townhall.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

+1 Well said!

[hsilgnepilot]

I’m not shocked about what’s going on at Porter given the pilots aren’t unionized. However, I feel it will continue to deteriorate without proper representation.

While yes, fleet locks do exist at companies with proper collective agreements, there are typically clauses in which it shall be waived, such as;

- Upon introduction of a new fleet
- Bidding off type to increase pay
- Bidding off type to obtain a base unavailable to your current type

The top two of these clauses would come into play in this specific situation. There is also typically an option for a company to choose to not transfer a pilot into a position which they have the seniority/rights to hold. This would almost certainly come with by-pass pay, which also is not being paid by Porter.

Would make a huge difference in the lives of pilots and morale on the line if they were being paid in accordance to the pay scale in which their seniority gives them the RIGHT to.

[LAteNightDash]

I chose to upgrade and fly the dash for a couple years, as soon as I hit 1000hours of PIC (in a couple months), I will bid over to the right seat on the E2.

...and your D8 CA to E2 FO bid will go ignored because it's not about going over to the E2 it about leaving the Dash left seat. This was confirmed by BC in the YYZ townhall.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

+1 Well said!

If they ignore it then theres no reason to stay at porter. I hope that doesn't happen. I dont remember what you are referring to by saying " This was confirmed by BC in the YYZ townhall".. I specifically remember him saying that they will work out a matrix for years of service pay when going left seat dash to right seat E2 during one of the pilot calls. Do you remember what he said specifically?

[PropDog]

Dash upgrade is a trap. Unless youre interested for the professional/personal goal of getting MPIC in your logbook you’re better off enjoying the cushy YTZ FO schedule for another year and then head over to join the party.

Word. The only reason to take dash PIC is because you really want some MPIC time (believe it or not some PIC time on the dash really will make you a better pilot if your previous PIC time isn’t 705 time), or lifestyle ie you like YTZ or are outstation based (YQT or YOW. RIP YHZ).

People getting bent out of shape not getting the jet after flight instructing for a year and then sitting right seat on the dash for a year lol. Go apply somewhere else if you can’t handle not flying a jet right this second.

[8895]

Totally agree that most Q FO’s would be better off simply going right seat to right seat. With the current cost of living crisis it makes more sense to stomach a couple years as a Q FO then bid over to the jet. I think once AC gets their new contract and Porter’s E2 scales are further adjusted to remain competitive that’ll become even more prevalent. Hopefully they can figure something out. I think any operator trying to staff regional equipment with the current shortage is gonna be in for a rough time in terms of left seaters.

[clrdleftbase]

I’ve always advocated seniority number is the only number that matters. When you get onto the jet you’ll be quite happy.

Hey I completely agree with you. The problem here is that seniority doesn't seem to mean much at the moment apart from what schedule you can hold. I hear from Captains all the time with 5+ years of seniority at Porter being told that they are not senior enough to hold E2 right seat, let alone the left seat. If/when they are allowed to come over, they will make less than a DEC. I get that we need DECs and FOs to start up a new operation, especially with the size of the expansion planned, and am grateful that you guys are all here. But it would be nice for some transparency from the company.

People getting bent out of shape not getting the jet after flight instructing for a year and then sitting right seat on the dash for a year lol. Go apply somewhere else if you can’t handle not flying a jet right this second.

As most people I talk to, we don't really care about what we fly. I'll stay on the dash as long as they want if there's some incentive too. A year doesn't sound like a lot but it's tens of thousands of dollars in lost pay with a lack of YOS transfer. Meanwhile new hires with the same level of 703 experience that most of our class had when hired on the dash are now going right to the E2. Maybe you are in a lucky position where compensation doesn't matter for you, but it does for a lot of us especially in a cost of living crisis.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

+1. It's been great for me here so far, the people are great and it's been some fun flying. But yes, there are things to be worked on and my concern is also partly what the plan is to keep the dash operation going in the future. I don't see how we'll be able to sustain any sort of CA staffing, especially if there is no FO upgrade pipeline.

[PropDog]

I’ve always advocated seniority number is the only number that matters. When you get onto the jet you’ll be quite happy.

Hey I completely agree with you. The problem here is that seniority doesn't seem to mean much at the moment apart from what schedule you can hold. I hear from Captains all the time with 5+ years of seniority at Porter being told that they are not senior enough to hold E2 right seat, let alone the left seat. If/when they are allowed to come over, they will make less than a DEC. I get that we need DECs and FOs to start up a new operation, especially with the size of the expansion planned, and am grateful that you guys are all here. But it would be nice for some transparency from the company.

People getting bent out of shape not getting the jet after flight instructing for a year and then sitting right seat on the dash for a year lol. Go apply somewhere else if you can’t handle not flying a jet right this second.

As most people I talk to, we don't really care about what we fly. I'll stay on the dash as long as they want if there's some incentive too. A year doesn't sound like a lot but it's tens of thousands of dollars in lost pay with a lack of YOS transfer. Meanwhile new hires with the same level of 703 experience that most of our class had when hired on the dash are now going right to the E2. Maybe you are in a lucky position where compensation doesn't matter for you, but it does for a lot of us especially in a cost of living crisis.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

+1. It's been great for me here so far, the people are great and it's been some fun flying. But yes, there are things to be worked on and my concern is also partly what the plan is to keep the dash operation going in the future. I don't see how we'll be able to sustain any sort of CA staffing, especially if there is no FO upgrade pipeline.

Fairly childish argument to assume cost of living doesn’t apply to everyone. My class did the math and 5 years as Q captain before taking a transfer to E2 captain vs taking 5 years of E2 FO pay then upgrading, even with the higher pay starting at year 3 and 4, you make more money in that time with a Q upgrade. If money is a crunch for you take the upgrade and do your time. Right now without taking a single day extra and just going over block, year 2 dash 8 captain is about 9700 before tax EDIT (this is per month). Not including per diems.
If your problem is losing money then do the math for yourself.

[PropDog]

I’ve always advocated seniority number is the only number that matters. When you get onto the jet you’ll be quite happy.

Hey I completely agree with you. The problem here is that seniority doesn't seem to mean much at the moment apart from what schedule you can hold. I hear from Captains all the time with 5+ years of seniority at Porter being told that they are not senior enough to hold E2 right seat, let alone the left seat. If/when they are allowed to come over, they will make less than a DEC. I get that we need DECs and FOs to start up a new operation, especially with the size of the expansion planned, and am grateful that you guys are all here. But it would be nice for some transparency from the company.

People getting bent out of shape not getting the jet after flight instructing for a year and then sitting right seat on the dash for a year lol. Go apply somewhere else if you can’t handle not flying a jet right this second.

As most people I talk to, we don't really care about what we fly. I'll stay on the dash as long as they want if there's some incentive too. A year doesn't sound like a lot but it's tens of thousands of dollars in lost pay with a lack of YOS transfer. Meanwhile new hires with the same level of 703 experience that most of our class had when hired on the dash are now going right to the E2. Maybe you are in a lucky position where compensation doesn't matter for you, but it does for a lot of us especially in a cost of living crisis.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

+1. It's been great for me here so far, the people are great and it's been some fun flying. But yes, there are things to be worked on and my concern is also partly what the plan is to keep the dash operation going in the future. I don't see how we'll be able to sustain any sort of CA staffing, especially if there is no FO upgrade pipeline.

A year doesn’t sound long because it isn’t. It’s a great time to be a pilot and we’re making more than ever before. We’ve all been there dude. And it took a lot longer than 2 years to crack 6 figures which is now pretty much available to anyone who wants to take an upgrade.

[braaap Braap]

I chose to upgrade and fly the dash for a couple years, as soon as I hit 1000hours of PIC (in a couple months), I will bid over to the right seat on the E2.

...and your D8 CA to E2 FO bid will go ignored because it's not about going over to the E2 it about leaving the Dash left seat. This was confirmed by BC in the YYZ townhall.

How about, Porter is a good company with some serious issues that, once fixed will make it a better company. Even the Jet is NOT rainbows and unicorns by any means.

+1 Well said!

If they ignore it then theres no reason to stay at porter. I hope that doesn't happen. I dont remember what you are referring to by saying " This was confirmed by BC in the YYZ townhall".. I specifically remember him saying that they will work out a matrix for years of service pay when going left seat dash to right seat E2 during one of the pilot calls. Do you remember what he said specifically?

I don't think I was on the call where that was said. I remember in the summer FOAG update, both MD and KW seemed confused as to why people were even asking or contemplating doing a Dash CA to E2 FO transfer.

The YYZ townhall question came from someone who was there in person, they basically asked BC if it was about captains leaving the Dash and if so would the flow numbers increase if they were able to attract more DECs. There is next to no language in the FOAG for transfers besides the CA to CA transition and a few references to switching fleets. So outside of the 3/month there is: nothing.

[AirCandida]

Porter management best figure this out and right it, which is obvious. Otherwise, they'll get the union they deserve. Lots of ex ALPA pilots there now... just saying.

[hsilgnepilot]

The people in here bashing pilots for wanting to have their seniority respected are part of the reason we’re so far behind our peers in the US. If we want to see the industry in Canada get better, we need to start acting like American pilots. We need to stick up for one another and OUR interests.

Imagine saying “well you could be flying a Hawker out of YPL” and “oh complaining about being on a Dash 8 for a year after flight instructing”. Well guess what, times have changed. Just because you might’ve had to 35 years ago, doesn’t reflect the reality of the industry for everyone today.

God forbid a pilot want his seniority to be respected instead of seeing hundreds of pilots hired off the street for a position which he’s interested in within the company. God forbid asking for bypass pay or YOS transfer with pay progression. No, that would make too much sense!

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

[PropDog]

The people in here bashing pilots for wanting to have their seniority respected are part of the reason we’re so far behind our peers in the US. If we want to see the industry in Canada get better, we need to start acting like American pilots. We need to stick up for one another and OUR interests.

Imagine saying “well you could be flying a Hawker out of YPL” and “oh complaining about being on a Dash 8 for a year after flight instructing”. Well guess what, times have changed. Just because you might’ve had to 35 years ago, doesn’t reflect the reality of the industry for everyone today.

God forbid a pilot want his seniority to be respected instead of seeing hundreds of pilots hired off the street for a position which he’s interested in within the company. God forbid asking for bypass pay or YOS transfer with pay progression. No, that would make too much sense!

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

Would I use the same dialogue towards a rouge pilot for some made up scenario that doesn’t exist? I don’t know it’s a made up scenario that doesn’t exist so maybe. If that pilot has been flying for only a couple years.

Believe me, no one wants seniority and YOS respected more than the people that actually had to spend time working for it.

I think it’s a great time to be a pilot and am glad to see that it’s getting better for new pilots coming in. It’s just annoying to hear constant complaining from people who have it so good so early in their career. If you don’t like how the company is walking all over the FOAG and making language that isn’t in the pilots favour, maybe get a union. If people keep staffing flights and stay at the company the company isn’t going to change. Why would it. They’re here to sell tickets and make money, not make pilots happy.

Also, did anyone really not see this coming? After seeing encore flow to WestJet and Jazz flow to AC, how did you expect Porter to buy 50-100 jets and flow every single Dash 8 pilot in less than 24 months. It’s been less than 2 years since we started flying the jets. People that got here after the jets started flying already think they’re entitled to get off the dash anytime they want. Yes seeing direct entires sucks and the wording for only 3 people a month flowing, getting bypass pay, or DTIP sucks but that’s on our FOAG. The new managers know how to argue wording that benefits them and we’re over our heads.

Yes times have changed, but there’s still people ahead of you in line. So spare me the woe is me god forbid my one year of seniority isn’t being respected I deserve a high paying jet spot right now. Honestly.

[mmm...bacon]

No incentive?
Achieving, and meeting a challenge? Personal/career development? Running your own show? There used to be a time in the not too distant past when PIC was worth its weight in gold; given the cyclic nature of aviation, that may yet be true again.

[hsilgnepilot]

The people in here bashing pilots for wanting to have their seniority respected are part of the reason we’re so far behind our peers in the US. If we want to see the industry in Canada get better, we need to start acting like American pilots. We need to stick up for one another and OUR interests.

Imagine saying “well you could be flying a Hawker out of YPL” and “oh complaining about being on a Dash 8 for a year after flight instructing”. Well guess what, times have changed. Just because you might’ve had to 35 years ago, doesn’t reflect the reality of the industry for everyone today.

God forbid a pilot want his seniority to be respected instead of seeing hundreds of pilots hired off the street for a position which he’s interested in within the company. God forbid asking for bypass pay or YOS transfer with pay progression. No, that would make too much sense!

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

Would I use the same dialogue towards a rouge pilot for some made up scenario that doesn’t exist? I don’t know it’s a made up scenario that doesn’t exist so maybe. If that pilot has been flying for only a couple years.

Believe me, no one wants seniority and YOS respected more than the people that actually had to spend time working for it.

I think it’s a great time to be a pilot and am glad to see that it’s getting better for new pilots coming in. It’s just annoying to hear constant complaining from people who have it so good so early in their career. If you don’t like how the company is walking all over the FOAG and making language that isn’t in the pilots favour, maybe get a union. If people keep staffing flights and stay at the company the company isn’t going to change. Why would it. They’re here to sell tickets and make money, not make pilots happy.

Also, did anyone really not see this coming? After seeing encore flow to WestJet and Jazz flow to AC, how did you expect Porter to buy 50-100 jets and flow every single Dash 8 pilot in less than 24 months. It’s been less than 2 years since we started flying the jets. People that got here after the jets started flying already think they’re entitled to get off the dash anytime they want. Yes seeing direct entires sucks and the wording for only 3 people a month flowing, getting bypass pay, or DTIP sucks but that’s on our FOAG. The new managers know how to argue wording that benefits them and we’re over our heads.

Yes times have changed, but there’s still people ahead of you in line. So spare me the woe is me god forbid my one year of seniority isn’t being respected I deserve a high paying jet spot right now. Honestly.

It’s a hypothetical made up scenario until it actually happens. 5 years ago, Porter expanding to the size which it currently is was a fantasy as well. So be careful what you say.

“Specific years” of seniority, as you pointed out watching someone “cry because their one year of seniority isn’t respected”, is not relevant. You could have one month of seniority, if 1000 pilots were hired tomorrow (who were coming into the company with similar qualifications as the OP), for a better position, which pays more than yours - you’d be pissed off too. So your “1 year seniority” argument is a moot point.

I feel it may be too late at this point for Porter pilots to unionize. EMB pilots are quickly becoming the majority, and as long as they’re kept happy, there won’t be a union. The EMB pilots certainly do not want hundreds of dash pilots transferring to the jet and going ahead of them for scheduling and bidding purposes. This is the kind of division that the company loves to see. They don’t want a union either.

For that reason it’s hard to NOT sympathize with the Dash pilots. Hindsight is always 20/20 of course, but maybe they should have started the drive to unionize just after this large expansion was announced, BEFORE the EMB pilots were on property.

[flyinhigh]

The people in here bashing pilots for wanting to have their seniority respected are part of the reason we’re so far behind our peers in the US. If we want to see the industry in Canada get better, we need to start acting like American pilots. We need to stick up for one another and OUR interests.

Imagine saying “well you could be flying a Hawker out of YPL” and “oh complaining about being on a Dash 8 for a year after flight instructing”. Well guess what, times have changed. Just because you might’ve had to 35 years ago, doesn’t reflect the reality of the industry for everyone today.

God forbid a pilot want his seniority to be respected instead of seeing hundreds of pilots hired off the street for a position which he’s interested in within the company. God forbid asking for bypass pay or YOS transfer with pay progression. No, that would make too much sense!

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

I’m the one who used YPL as an example and I highly suggest you go read what I wrote. At no point did I bash this lad, in fact I told him to hang in there and to look at it glass half full as YOU COULD be doing.

[PropDog]

The people in here bashing pilots for wanting to have their seniority respected are part of the reason we’re so far behind our peers in the US. If we want to see the industry in Canada get better, we need to start acting like American pilots. We need to stick up for one another and OUR interests.

Imagine saying “well you could be flying a Hawker out of YPL” and “oh complaining about being on a Dash 8 for a year after flight instructing”. Well guess what, times have changed. Just because you might’ve had to 35 years ago, doesn’t reflect the reality of the industry for everyone today.

God forbid a pilot want his seniority to be respected instead of seeing hundreds of pilots hired off the street for a position which he’s interested in within the company. God forbid asking for bypass pay or YOS transfer with pay progression. No, that would make too much sense!

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

Would I use the same dialogue towards a rouge pilot for some made up scenario that doesn’t exist? I don’t know it’s a made up scenario that doesn’t exist so maybe. If that pilot has been flying for only a couple years.

Believe me, no one wants seniority and YOS respected more than the people that actually had to spend time working for it.

I think it’s a great time to be a pilot and am glad to see that it’s getting better for new pilots coming in. It’s just annoying to hear constant complaining from people who have it so good so early in their career. If you don’t like how the company is walking all over the FOAG and making language that isn’t in the pilots favour, maybe get a union. If people keep staffing flights and stay at the company the company isn’t going to change. Why would it. They’re here to sell tickets and make money, not make pilots happy.

Also, did anyone really not see this coming? After seeing encore flow to WestJet and Jazz flow to AC, how did you expect Porter to buy 50-100 jets and flow every single Dash 8 pilot in less than 24 months. It’s been less than 2 years since we started flying the jets. People that got here after the jets started flying already think they’re entitled to get off the dash anytime they want. Yes seeing direct entires sucks and the wording for only 3 people a month flowing, getting bypass pay, or DTIP sucks but that’s on our FOAG. The new managers know how to argue wording that benefits them and we’re over our heads.

Yes times have changed, but there’s still people ahead of you in line. So spare me the woe is me god forbid my one year of seniority isn’t being respected I deserve a high paying jet spot right now. Honestly.

It’s a hypothetical made up scenario until it actually happens. 5 years ago, Porter expanding to the size which it currently is was a fantasy as well. So be careful what you say.

“Specific years” of seniority, as you pointed out watching someone “cry because their one year of seniority isn’t respected”, is not relevant. You could have one month of seniority, if 1000 pilots were hired tomorrow (who were coming into the company with similar qualifications as the OP), for a better position, which pays more than yours - you’d be pissed off too. So your “1 year seniority” argument is a moot point.

I feel it may be too late at this point for Porter pilots to unionize. EMB pilots are quickly becoming the majority, and as long as they’re kept happy, there won’t be a union. The EMB pilots certainly do not want hundreds of dash pilots transferring to the jet and going ahead of them for scheduling and bidding purposes. This is the kind of division that the company loves to see. They don’t want a union either.

For that reason it’s hard to NOT sympathize with the Dash pilots. Hindsight is always 20/20 of course, but maybe they should have started the drive to unionize just after this large expansion was announced, BEFORE the EMB pilots were on property.

More moot than a made up scenario that doesn’t exist? I’m not arguing that seniority shouldn’t be respected, that’s a straw man you built. I’m arguing that instead of whining you could see how good things are now like they haven’t been, and that you can try to change things. Ie. Union, better FOAG wording.

Their seniority isn’t respected because the company is hiring off the street without completely bleeding the dash 8 dry?

I agree that we need better bypass. Each OTS hire should = one higher seniority dash pilot captain and FO getting bypass pay, not three a month. But as I said our FOAG gets walked all over.

As someone else said it’s not all sunshine and rainbows on the E2 and there are many reasons for a union other than pay and flow. I’m talking scope and merger protection.

Also as for being behind the US. The reason we’re behind is we have one flag carrier that won’t up wages because…. it’s the only one. The US has 3 and they’re all competing so wages are driving up faster. Hopefully ALPA can secure a big win at AC and we will see better wages at every other carrier.

[hsilgnepilot]

The people in here bashing pilots for wanting to have their seniority respected are part of the reason we’re so far behind our peers in the US. If we want to see the industry in Canada get better, we need to start acting like American pilots. We need to stick up for one another and OUR interests.

Imagine saying “well you could be flying a Hawker out of YPL” and “oh complaining about being on a Dash 8 for a year after flight instructing”. Well guess what, times have changed. Just because you might’ve had to 35 years ago, doesn’t reflect the reality of the industry for everyone today.

God forbid a pilot want his seniority to be respected instead of seeing hundreds of pilots hired off the street for a position which he’s interested in within the company. God forbid asking for bypass pay or YOS transfer with pay progression. No, that would make too much sense!

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

I’m the one who used YPL as an example and I highly suggest you go read what I wrote. At no point did I bash this lad, in fact I told him to hang in there and to look at it glass half full as YOU COULD be doing.

Respectfully, a glass half full attitude has gotten us no where in this industry in Canada. You’re never gonna get what you truly deserve if you just sit back and tell yourself, “hey well at least I’m not working at Dominos”

[PropDog]

Would you use the same dialogue towards a Rouge pilot whose been on the Airbus for a year, if AC started hiring off the street specifically for the 787 & 777 and hypothetically created a new pay scale which doesn’t include flat pay? Would you tell them they could be flying a Hawker or Dash 8 instead?

Also OTS at AC are getting WB FO seats, but guess what any rogue pilot with seniority who transfers over goes above them and they also get first pick on the equipment bid.

Making up a random pay scale introduction wouldn’t happen without ALPAs say so as well.

Saying because Porter bought jets, which it has been trying to do with the C-series since it’s inception, to AC bringing in a ridiculous policy that wouldn’t get past ALPA isn’t a reasonable
Comparison. So… be careful what you say