Canadian Air Force

[redlaser]

If you are planning on becoming a fighter pilot my suggestion is that you get a private pilots licence first before going out to Portage la Prairie ,the Canadian military training base, Your chances of being accepted for military training is much greater than for someone that has never been in an aircraft, Also I would recommend that you get some stall,spin training, and that your able to enter and recover from spins on your own without the assistance from your instructor. Good luck

[ogopogo]

At least get the name right

[rigpiggy]

Actually I wouldn't get a ppl, for the most part the rcaf doesn't want you to have to unlearn bad habits. I would suggest some fam flights, and maybe some time at an aerobatics or one of the fighter schools at las vegas.

[tsgarp]

It doesn’t matter one way or the other. Having a license will get you a few points at the initial recruiting stage, but not enough to be crucial. Having a license won’t hurt you when you get to Portage/Moose Jaw, unless you lack flexibility to learn.

[cdnavater]

If you are planning on becoming a fighter pilot my suggestion is that you get a private pilots licence first before going out to Portage la Prairie ,the Canadian military training base, Your chances of being accepted for military training is much greater than for someone that has never been in an aircraft, Also I would recommend that you get some stall,spin training, and that your able to enter and recover from spins on your own without the assistance from your instructor. Good luck

I’m not sure I’m following this exactly, the way I’m reading it, you were denied and it’s because you couldn’t enter or recover from a stall without assistance of your instructor, is this correct?
If you have a private licence, you would need to demonstrate this skill for the ppl, or has that changed?
If you don’t, why in the world would you be expected to do this without assistance from the instructor?
I could see this skill being used to determine suitability for fighter school, it must demonstrate something that can be an indication of success or failure of being a fighter pilot.
The percentage of Air Force pilots that were selected to train for that used to be quite small, most ended up either rotary or transport, I can’t imagine that has changed.

[redlaser]

FYI as a flight instructor for over thirty years with more than 20 thousand hours of flight instruction I spent two weeks in Portage flying the Grob 120, many of the new wannabe pilots were sent home after their first flight because they couldn't stomach being put through a couple of steep turns, Portage RCAF is more an elimination center than a training one, So if you want to get through your first flight go prepared to be put through a couple of G's or more. Good luck

[cdnavater]

FYI as a flight instructor for over thirty years with more than 20 thousand hours of flight instruction I spent two weeks in Portage flying the Grob 120, many of the new wannabe pilots were sent home after their first flight because they couldn't stomach being put through a couple of steep turns, Portage RCAF is more an elimination center than a training one, So if you want to get through your first flight go prepared to be put through a couple of G's or more. Good luck

Ok, this part should have been posted in the first place, you original post was cryptic and difficult to get your intent!

[Tbayer2021]

I can't understand the logic of wanting to be a pilot in the air force but not being able to handle a steep turn.

[Posthumane]

FYI as a flight instructor for over thirty years with more than 20 thousand hours of flight instruction I spent two weeks in Portage flying the Grob 120, many of the new wannabe pilots were sent home after their first flight because they couldn't stomach being put through a couple of steep turns, Portage RCAF is more an elimination center than a training one, So if you want to get through your first flight go prepared to be put through a couple of G's or more. Good luck

In the time I spent there I never saw anybody go home after their first flight. Some people did have airsickness issues during the aerobatic phase, but the RCAF has a training program that deals with that for all but the worst cases. This whole thread smells of BS.

[digits_]

I can't understand the logic of wanting to be a pilot in the air force but not being able to handle a steep turn.

Because they might not always know

If you're new to the whole thing, you might not realize how it would feel. Or that you can just show up at an FTU and go fly to try it out. I believe they also have some pretty intense programs to deal with air sickness (which are practically inaccessible to civilians). So it doesn't necessarily *have* to be a problem.

I think there's also quite a few international students training in Portage. Likely from countries where private flying is non-existent or even more expensive.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I am curious how the RCAF is doing in attracting pilots?

With the civilian world offering much better pay, lifestyle, benefits and stability for your family, I can't imagine why anyone would pick the military vs the civilian world.Sure, you can't fly a CF-18 at Air Canada or Westjet, but you can have a great career. I've met plenty of military pilots that joined AC. I have never met a pilot that left the airlines to fly for the military. (I'm not talking about US pilots doing part time work for the military)

I don't mean this as a bash of our forces, but I'm looking for the thought process and desire to join the RCAF.

[Roundel Randy]

I don't believe having a pilot license makes a difference on being select for pilot or not, unless one has a fixed-wing CPL and can be granted a Phase 1 bypass. The CAF selects pilots predominately on their aircrew selection results, and a smaller portion on things like their recruitment aptitude test. For aircrew selection, hand-eye coordination, multi-tasking, rapid math, spatial awareness (ie. what direction is an aircraft pointing) is more or less what they are looking for. The CAF has more description online of what type of testing they do so it's not a complete surprise.

Being selected for fighters has nothing to do with whether one has a pilot license or not. By the time one gets to the point in training to be selected for that, any previous experience would likely have been surpassed. If you hold an IFR rating, than that'll certainly help on the IF portion of the flight training. If you have previous aerobatic experience (rare), that will help with the clearhood phase. Likewise, if you have formation flying (very rare) that'll help with the formation phase. Having previous experience can help, but the program is designed to train you having known nothing so it's not necessary. What is more important is studying really hard. You need to be well prepared before every flight.

As far as airsickness goes, it's quite common on the Harvard for people to get airsick, even if they didn't have much issue on the Grob. It's a very torquing aircraft. If you add in wearing a helmet and mask, some hot temperatures from the bubble canopy, low-level turbulence, aerobatics/spins, and then the pressure of completing the mission, all that can help induce airsickness. A lot of times their body will acclimatize to it after a few flights. For example, the first few times a pilot does 60* and 2G turns (standard pattern turns) they'll notice the G forces. After awhile, it's nothing. For those that still struggle, there will be an airsickness mission package which includes medication (obviously not solo flights or graded). If that doesn't do the trick, then there is a spin course which can last a few weeks to a few months. If somebody ends up on the spin course, there is still about a 50-50 chance to get good enough to overcome the airsickness.

To my knowledge, Portage doesn't have foreign pilots but Moose Jaw does/did. And I don't think there is anybody that's been cut from pilot training on one flight alone, unless there was a serious deliberate safety violation. The intent is not to fail people in training, but to give them all the reasonable opportunity and resources to succeed. The RCAF does a pretty good job on this.

[Roundel Randy]

I am curious how the RCAF is doing in attracting pilots?

With the civilian world offering much better pay, lifestyle, benefits and stability for your family, I can't imagine why anyone would pick the military vs the civilian world.Sure, you can't fly a CF-18 at Air Canada or Westjet, but you can have a great career. I've met plenty of military pilots that joined AC. I have never met a pilot that left the airlines to fly for the military. (I'm not talking about US pilots doing part time work for the military)

I don't mean this as a bash of our forces, but I'm looking for the thought process and desire to join the RCAF.

You hit the nail on the head of why a civilian flying career is desirable. But there are reasons why people are drawn to military service. The military mostly attracts their pilots out of high school or university for one. Depending on the entry program, you could get your university degree paid for you and go from zero to hero all paid for with no previous flying experience. You have job security and relatively decent salary and benefits. The military has a new pilot pay scale that's not too bad, although it'll arguably be uncompetitive after the most recent pay increases civi side. There is also the ability to get an immediate unreduced pension after 25 years of service, which is very rare outside of the military. Lastly, you get to do missions and types of flying that you won't do in the civilian world. The military also has relatively good camaraderie.

There are of course downsides. Not as much flying as outside the military. Can be put behind a desk. Can be given a posting or aircraft platform you don't want. Plus the military approach to commanding members. You don't have a union or any employee rights for example.

[MOAB]

My partner and some close friends have tried to go the airforce route and to be frank the military is not looking for “pilots” as much as they are looking for an aptitude that they want. All 3 had previous flying experience and only 1 passed the aptitude for a pilot, which they declined when they were told they wouldn’t have a say in what they flew. All 3 went on to very successful flying careers in the civilian world so it wasn’t like they couldn’t cut the mustard at flying.

The military knows what they need and I hope they find those people, but they seem more interested in getting their people back vs finding suitable candidates who would have no problem flying.

[tsgarp]

FYI as a flight instructor for over thirty years with more than 20 thousand hours of flight instruction I spent two weeks in Portage flying the Grob 120, many of the new wannabe pilots were sent home after their first flight because they couldn't stomach being put through a couple of steep turns, Portage RCAF is more an elimination center than a training one, So if you want to get through your first flight go prepared to be put through a couple of G's or more. Good luck

This is not correct.
1.) Nobody gets sent how from Portage after the first flight,
2.) High G’s don’t come until later in the course.
3.) PFT is not designed as, nor does it act as an ‘elimination course’. Success rates are in the 80% range.
4.) Redlaser is likely making things up for reasons known only by him.

[SamuelTheKitty]

I am curious how the RCAF is doing in attracting pilots?

With the civilian world offering much better pay, lifestyle, benefits and stability for your family, I can't imagine why anyone would pick the military vs the civilian world.Sure, you can't fly a CF-18 at Air Canada or Westjet, but you can have a great career. I've met plenty of military pilots that joined AC. I have never met a pilot that left the airlines to fly for the military. (I'm not talking about US pilots doing part time work for the military)

I don't mean this as a bash of our forces, but I'm looking for the thought process and desire to join the RCAF.

You hit the nail on the head of why a civilian flying career is desirable. But there are reasons why people are drawn to military service. The military mostly attracts their pilots out of high school or university for one. Depending on the entry program, you could get your university degree paid for you and go from zero to hero all paid for with no previous flying experience. You have job security and relatively decent salary and benefits. The military has a new pilot pay scale that's not too bad, although it'll arguably be uncompetitive after the most recent pay increases civi side. There is also the ability to get an immediate unreduced pension after 25 years of service, which is very rare outside of the military. Lastly, you get to do missions and types of flying that you won't do in the civilian world. The military also has relatively good camaraderie.

There are of course downsides. Not as much flying as outside the military. Can be put behind a desk. Can be given a posting or aircraft platform you don't want. Plus the military approach to commanding members. You don't have a union or any employee rights for example.

I would make the case that for now and the foreseeable future, the reason why anyone would be interested in a military career as a pilot is purely out of ignorance as to what the reality of that life is.

Beyond the free education and training, our value proposition has eroded meaningfully in the past half decade and will only continue to decline. While much hullabaloo will be made of the various equipment acquisitions (e.g. P8, F35, RPAS) on the horizon, all the horses will have left the barn as far as experienced personnel goes by the time the RCAF is ready to onboard those capabilities. In the mean time, the existing equipment will continue to slide further toward decrepitude, making us even less relevant than we currently are, which isn't saying much. Most people who got into the Air Force did so to for the reasons stated - the unique flying. One the reasons they stay is relevance and an opportunity to "do the job". This will be a factor less and less as time goes on between museum pieces for aircraft and being +15K short in the RegF. All this renewal of the fleets is happening 10 years too late IMO - and that's assuming we could manage it competently, which we've demonstrated time and time again that we can't.

In short, it is what they don't put on the brochure that tips the scales heavily in favour of avoiding this as a career path - namely an utterly incompetent recruiting pipeline, a completely dysfunctional capital acquisition process, a declining credibility amongst our allies, and a steady erosion of the culture of arms.

Also, in my experience, 25 years is an eternity for just about everyone who didn't do ROTP. And even if you start collecting the pension young, indexing won't kick in for 10-15 years - plenty of time for YOS and salary at an airline to make up a big part of the difference.

It is unfortunate, but I don't think I'd recommend the military aviation path under just about any circumstance for someone starting today.

[Posthumane]

SamuelTheKitty, I would say your post has some truth to it, but it's a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, there are aspects of a military flying career that suck, and that's especially the case with the RCAF. And yes, those aspects are not advertised and glossed over by recruiters. But that is also true of civilian flying; flight schools selling people on CPLs aren't doing so by telling them that they are going to have to spend tens of thousands of dollars and several years of training time in order to get a minimum wage job working on the ramp or on a dock up north somewhere, or that their class 3 flight instructors are making peanuts and barely scraping by in order to get those coveted hours. RCAF students in Portage are generally advised not to bitch too much about their situation as sometimes they are making better money than the experienced civilian instructor training them.

If someone's dream is to fly, be it airlines or whatever, I would not recommend going to the RCAF either. But if someone's dream is that of a military career, I think being an RCAF pilot is still a good option for them. I know plenty of people who went through the training system and are very happy flying relatively modern C130s or C17, or even the old Twotters. I also know quite a few people who feel they are getting screwed over because they had to sit and work a desk job for years after finishing their wings training because they can't get training on their aircraft type due to mismanagement. It's a gamble.

[redlaser]

I don't know of any fighter jet pilots in the canadian military to achieve 5000 hours of flying, like some of you said previously most end up behind a desk, The military training is a very structured one even, the flight instructures are not given much freedom with the students, unlike flight training in a civilian flight school, Also the aircraft used for the initial training are old aircraft and are subject to the minus 30 degree weather in Portage, Again if you want a long career in aviation go the civilian route, Good luck

[tsgarp]

I don't know of any fighter jet pilots in the canadian military to achieve 5000 hours of flying, like some of you said previously most end up behind a desk, The military training is a very structured one even, the flight instructures are not given much freedom with the students, unlike flight training in a civilian flight school, Also the aircraft used for the initial training are old aircraft and are subject to the minus 30 degree weather in Portage, Again if you want a long career in aviation go the civilian route, Good luck

1) 5000 hrs of flying in the fighter community likely represents 4500 individual flights, and, very little time spent flying straight and level on autopilot.
2) Civilian flight instructors are supposed to follow the lesson plans in the FIG according to the regulations, just like military instructors follow a Training Plan. The only difference is that civilian instructors will continue to train you as long as you can afford the lessons.
3) The CT120s were all acquired in the early 2000s, making them much younger than many of the aircraft you will find at a civilian school.

I’m not really sure why you have this axe to grind with the RCAF; but you really need to stop making up random stuff.

[Pratt X 3]

I don't know of any fighter jet pilots in the canadian military to achieve 5000 hours of flying, like some of you said previously most end up behind a desk, The military training is a very structured one even, the flight instructures are not given much freedom with the students, unlike flight training in a civilian flight school, Also the aircraft used for the initial training are old aircraft and are subject to the minus 30 degree weather in Portage, Again if you want a long career in aviation go the civilian route, Good luck

1) 5000 hrs of flying in the fighter community likely represents 4500 individual flights, and, very little time spent flying straight and level on autopilot.
2) Civilian flight instructors are supposed to follow the lesson plans in the FIG according to the regulations, just like military instructors follow a Training Plan. The only difference is that civilian instructors will continue to train you as long as you can afford the lessons.
3) The CT120s were all acquired in the early 2000s, making them much younger than many of the aircraft you will find at a civilian school.

I’m not really sure why you have this axe to grind with the RCAF; but you really need to stop making up random stuff.

He’s mad that the military stole all his periods and left him with only commas!

[tsgarp]

With the civilian world …snip…. someone starting today.

Your career, (civilian or military), will have ups, downs, good points and bad points, but ultimately is what you make it. A career in military aviation will involve doing a lot of waiting and a lot of things that aren’t flying. This is explained at the recruiting centre and again at the PFT welcome brief. However, the flying that you do will afford you experiences and satisfaction that you will not get elsewhere. I realize that for pilots at the beginning of their careers (i.e. a New Wing Grad sitting at the Multi Engine Utility Flight) this may seem like a distant prospect, but it is real. Launching in a Herc to go look for an overdue hunting party in the Arctic archipelago gives you a real sense of purpose. Finding them, then dropping survival equipment to them (by flying 300’ AGL) and providing top cover while vectoring a ship in to pick them up is a rush. Landing that Herc on an Arctic gravel strip, and hearing that you just got 7 adults and 4 children to safety is just bloody awesome. Every community has similar stories; Maritime Patrol hunting subs down low, Tac Hel doing nap of the earth…. You just don’t get to do that stuff flying civi pax to Disney Land and back. Also, you will become an aircraft commander very rapidly in the Air Force; generally at around 500 hrs on type

Old aircraft are not exclusively an Air Force problem. Many of the operators you will work for on your way to a major airline will have shitty old equipment. They will push you out the door to fly it because they want to make money. The Air Force’s flight safety culture by and large prevents you from being pressured into taking an unsafe aircraft.

The Air Force will mess with your pay, benefits and life. However, they will do it to a much lesser extent than a non-union airline and about the same amount as a major unionized airline. While it is true that an airline can’t post you to a new city without your consent (like the Air Force can), you will still be required to move when you changed jobs as you move up the ladder towards a major airline. Further, the Air Force is not driven by a need to make a profit and is based on a bureaucratic model, meaning that if you know the regulations well enough you can generally get what you want.

The Air Force will not go bankrupt and take your pension with it (if it does that means the whole country has collapsed…so all bets are off). Airlines have gone bankrupt and taken people’s pensions with them in the past, and will do so again in the future. I know this seems far fetched in today’s environment, especially to people who have entered aviation in the last ten years. Aviation is cyclical and has been in a very positive space recently mostly due to grey out. That will change in the future, nobody can predict when, but when it does happen, based on past cycles, it will be a rapid swing and a large one.

In summary, if all you want do is fly planes in a routine environment; go airlines. If you want some unique experiences, some chances to grow as a person outside of flying, and you’re willing to but up with some bullshit for it; go Air Force.

[dontcallmeshirley]

If you want to get bored of flying planes because you are scheduled to fly too much, go airlines.
If you want to get bored of sitting on the ground because you're never scheduled to fly, go air force.

At the end of the day, if you can get a hot cup of coffee while flying, you're doing alright.

[tsgarp]

If you want to get bored of flying planes because you are scheduled to fly too much, go airlines.
If you want to get bored of sitting on the ground because you're never scheduled to fly, go air force.

At the end of the day, if you can get a hot cup of coffee while flying, you're doing alright.

…sounds like you’ve had enough of both.

[Flyboy757]

With the civilian world …snip…. someone starting today.

Your career, (civilian or military), will have ups, downs, good points and bad points, but ultimately is what you make it. A career in military aviation will involve doing a lot of waiting and a lot of things that aren’t flying. This is explained at the recruiting centre and again at the PFT welcome brief. However, the flying that you do will afford you experiences and satisfaction that you will not get elsewhere. I realize that for pilots at the beginning of their careers (i.e. a New Wing Grad sitting at the Multi Engine Utility Flight) this may seem like a distant prospect, but it is real. Launching in a Herc to go look for an overdue hunting party in the Arctic archipelago gives you a real sense of purpose. Finding them, then dropping survival equipment to them (by flying 300’ AGL) and providing top cover while vectoring a ship in to pick them up is a rush. Landing that Herc on an Arctic gravel strip, and hearing that you just got 7 adults and 4 children to safety is just bloody awesome. Every community has similar stories; Maritime Patrol hunting subs down low, Tac Hel doing nap of the earth…. You just don’t get to do that stuff flying civi pax to Disney Land and back. Also, you will become an aircraft commander very rapidly in the Air Force; generally at around 500 hrs on type

Old aircraft are not exclusively an Air Force problem. Many of the operators you will work for on your way to a major airline will have shitty old equipment. They will push you out the door to fly it because they want to make money. The Air Force’s flight safety culture by and large prevents you from being pressured into taking an unsafe aircraft.

The Air Force will mess with your pay, benefits and life. However, they will do it to a much lesser extent than a non-union airline and about the same amount as a major unionized airline. While it is true that an airline can’t post you to a new city without your consent (like the Air Force can), you will still be required to move when you changed jobs as you move up the ladder towards a major airline. Further, the Air Force is not driven by a need to make a profit and is based on a bureaucratic model, meaning that if you know the regulations well enough you can generally get what you want.

The Air Force will not go bankrupt and take your pension with it (if it does that means the whole country has collapsed…so all bets are off). Airlines have gone bankrupt and taken people’s pensions with them in the past, and will do so again in the future. I know this seems far fetched in today’s environment, especially to people who have entered aviation in the last ten years. Aviation is cyclical and has been in a very positive space recently mostly due to grey out. That will change in the future, nobody can predict when, but when it does happen, based on past cycles, it will be a rapid swing and a large one.

In summary, if all you want do is fly planes in a routine environment; go airlines. If you want some unique experiences, some chances to grow as a person outside of flying, and you’re willing to but up with some bullshit for it; go Air Force.

Very well put. Agree 100% with your post. Did 21 yrs as RCAF Pilot and 12 at the airlines so have experienced both sides.

[Averroes]

Do you guys have a take on the idea of joining up with the air force for the training then signing up with a major once the 7 years of obligatory service are done? Is it a good way to get started as a pilot if you're too strapped for cash to fork over $100k+ for training?