152 Crash CEJ4 - August 29th

[P-40]

Tough five weeks here in Alberta, 9 fatalities in three separate accidents. This one happened very close to the airport.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9926402/clar ... ane-crash/

[J31]

Very sad. A young aspiring commercial pilot. She was very involved with the Ninety Nines and is missed by many.

[JL]

TSB final report.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... w0103.html

[pelmet]

Didn't lean the mixture on a day with the density altitude at 5300' at max takeoff weight. I have never flown a 152. The POH suggests a 475' climb rate. Would full rich really reduce performance so enough that one would crash or is it possible that sloppy flying would have to be included to get to the point of a stall?

[7ECA]

Didn't lean the mixture on a day with the density altitude at 5300' at max takeoff weight. I have never flown a 152. The POH suggests a 475' climb rate. Would full rich really reduce performance so enough that one would crash or is it possible that sloppy flying would have to be included to get to the point of a stall?

According to the report they were actually 127LBS below MTOW. The POH is also for a brand spanking new aeroplane with a perfect engine, so assuming you'll get that kind of climb performance is unlikely, but it will climb, it'll be quite leisurely though.

Full rich mixture isn't going to give you "maximum" performance on takeoff at all, which is why you need to actually lean prior to takeoff in high density altitude situations in addition to taking off at airports a ways above sea level. Claresholm is located at roughly 3300' ASL - and the POH for the 152 recommends leaning above 3k ASL, but you should be leaning regardless of altitude due to plug fouling.

There's definitely a hesitance to lean amongst a subset of lower time pilots, especially ones coming from back East... For whatever reason, they'll only lean in a climb above 3000', or only in cruise. Then, you take them out of their normal environment of operating at airports near sea level and suddenly they run into real nasty plug fouling on the ground and they're at a complete loss as to what's happening. With an "elevated" airport like Claresholm and many others in Alberta and parts of BC, leaning on the ground is SOP - and aggressive leaning at that to ensure maximum performance. Mind you, the same issue comes up at most FTUs with students whom aren't taught to lean on the ground and then have a "rough running engine" snag on run up.

[rookiepilot]

Full rich mixture isn't going to give you "maximum" performance on takeoff at all, which is why you need to actually lean prior to takeoff in high density altitude situations in addition to taking off at airports a ways above sea level. Claresholm is located at roughly 3300' ASL - and the POH for the 152 recommends leaning above 3k ASL, but you should be leaning regardless of altitude due to plug fouling.

Its quite surprising the effects of altitude and temperature on low powered piston aircraft.

On a trip to Colorado for the first time in the west, I took off, properly leaned, in a 180 HP 172 in the late spring. 7000 ASL, 18- 20 degrees, at most. Thankfully not warmer. 8000 foot runway, which the 172 seemed to take a healthy bite of, to get airborne, then climb was perhaps 200 ft / minute, if i recall accurately. Maybe less.

Patience was required, and I made a very shallow departure turn…..

[7ECA]

Its quite surprising the effects of altitude and temperature on low powered piston aircraft.

It shouldn't be, because it's something students are taught about in ground school as well as during training. But, the intensity/effect learning factor is only going to be drilled home when it is experienced firsthand.

I'm not suggesting pilots from back East, Ontario, etc., aren't experiencing elevated density altitude situations - because they absolutely are. Standard Ontario summer WX is sweltering and that's going to give you an elevated DA. But, the lack of challenging terrain or actual significant mountains or elevation tends to be a bit of a stumbling block. It's eye opening for many a pilot when they take off from somewhere like Calgary Springbank and head into the Foothills and eventually Rockies, only to find out that if they want to actually climb to any significant altitude (on an appropriate VFR day) they can't just push in the knobs and pull back on the yoke...

[rookiepilot]

Its quite surprising the effects of altitude and temperature on low powered piston aircraft.

It shouldn't be, because it's something students are taught about in ground school as well as during training. But, the intensity/effect learning factor is only going to be drilled home when it is experienced firsthand.

I'm not suggesting pilots from back East, Ontario, etc., aren't experiencing elevated density altitude situations - because they absolutely are. Standard Ontario summer WX is sweltering and that's going to give you an elevated DA. But, the lack of challenging terrain or actual significant mountains or elevation tends to be a bit of a stumbling block. It's eye opening for many a pilot when they take off from somewhere like Calgary Springbank and head into the Foothills and eventually Rockies, only to find out that if they want to actually climb to any significant altitude (on an appropriate VFR day) they can't just push in the knobs and pull back on the yoke...

Yup.

Different trip, Montana, 5000 ASL, but a scorching 35 degrees, more powerful aircraft, issue wasn’t climbing, but temps, I pegged CHT’s at my limit, had to level off twice. And terrain gradually rising… East, just not the same….

[CpnCrunch]

For whatever reason, they'll only lean in a climb above 3000', or only in cruise.

Always follow the POH and engine manufacturer's recommendations, but generally you shouldn't lean in the climb below 3000ft as CHTs will rise too high.

Full rich at 5300ft shouldn't be an issue in terms of causing engine problems. It will just reduce climb rate.

[pelmet]

For whatever reason, they'll only lean in a climb above 3000', or only in cruise.

Always follow the POH and engine manufacturer's recommendations, but generally you shouldn't lean in the climb below 3000ft as CHTs will rise too high.

Full rich at 5300ft shouldn't be an issue in terms of causing engine problems. It will just reduce climb rate.

A reduced climb rate, but why was this aircraft stalling. Was there some sort of obstacle to clear. I didn't see an estimate of how high the aircraft actually got. Perhaps there were no witnesses.

The only safety message in the report was...

"Safety messages
Pilots are reminded to consult their aircraft’s POH for proper setting of the mixture control appropriate for the density altitude to ensure maximum power is available for takeoff and climbout.

Higher density altitudes result in penalties against take-off distance and climb performance. Pilots are reminded to review the POH when planning a flight in warmer temperatures and at higher airport elevations (high density altitudes) so that they are aware of these penalties."

Depending on the circumstances, I am wondering if the TSB should have added a reminder of the importance to monitor the airspeed particularly carefully in a situation of unexpected poor performance(or expected poor performance).

Anyways, if they won't, I will.

[Scoob]

Didn't lean the mixture on a day with the density altitude at 5300' at max takeoff weight. I have never flown a 152. The POH suggests a 475' climb rate. Would full rich really reduce performance so enough that one would crash or is it possible that sloppy flying would have to be included to get to the point of a stall?

According to the report they were actually 127LBS below MTOW. The POH is also for a brand spanking new aeroplane with a perfect engine, so assuming you'll get that kind of climb performance is unlikely, but it will climb, it'll be quite leisurely though.

Full rich mixture isn't going to give you "maximum" performance on takeoff at all, which is why you need to actually lean prior to takeoff in high density altitude situations in addition to taking off at airports a ways above sea level. Claresholm is located at roughly 3300' ASL - and the POH for the 152 recommends leaning above 3k ASL, but you should be leaning regardless of altitude due to plug fouling.

There's definitely a hesitance to lean amongst a subset of lower time pilots, especially ones coming from back East... For whatever reason, they'll only lean in a climb above 3000', or only in cruise. Then, you take them out of their normal environment of operating at airports near sea level and suddenly they run into real nasty plug fouling on the ground and they're at a complete loss as to what's happening. With an "elevated" airport like Claresholm and many others in Alberta and parts of BC, leaning on the ground is SOP - and aggressive leaning at that to ensure maximum performance. Mind you, the same issue comes up at most FTUs with students whom aren't taught to lean on the ground and then have a "rough running engine" snag on run up.

A lot of the engines have a %HP above which you shouldn't lean. This usually gets translated into the POHs in the form of an altitude below which you shouldn't lean if at full/climb power. In the case of a 172, takeoff is to be conducted with mixture rich, unless airport elevation is 3000ft or above. When climbing in the 172, mixture should be rich below 3000', and above 3000' it can be leaned. This of course to protect from excessive CHTs.
Mixtures are often leaned on the taxi because it's at the low power settings that you're gonna foul up, especially when its warm outside. When at full power the engine's too hot to facilitate any fouling. Leaning for high altitude takeoffs and climbs is less about the fouling and more about achieving that perfect air/fuel ratio, giving the best performance.

If you're Ontario or East, you're field elevation isn't 3000 or above, and therefore mixture should be rich. They're typically not flying higher than 5000'. That's why it's not operationally done. Unfortunately that means a lot of students aren't exposed to leaning for a takeoff or climb.

To the point though: would mixture leaning have helped this pilot's climb performance? Sure. But it won't help if you're pulling the nose up and getting yourself onto the backside of the power curve. Fly attitude, verify with airspeed.

[Scoob]

For whatever reason, they'll only lean in a climb above 3000', or only in cruise.

Always follow the POH and engine manufacturer's recommendations, but generally you shouldn't lean in the climb below 3000ft as CHTs will rise too high.

Full rich at 5300ft shouldn't be an issue in terms of causing engine problems. It will just reduce climb rate.

A reduced climb rate, but why was this aircraft stalling. Was there some sort of obstacle to clear. I didn't see an estimate of how high the aircraft actually got. Perhaps there were no witnesses.

The only safety message in the report was...

"Safety messages
Pilots are reminded to consult their aircraft’s POH for proper setting of the mixture control appropriate for the density altitude to ensure maximum power is available for takeoff and climbout.

Higher density altitudes result in penalties against take-off distance and climb performance. Pilots are reminded to review the POH when planning a flight in warmer temperatures and at higher airport elevations (high density altitudes) so that they are aware of these penalties."

Depending on the circumstances, I am wondering if the TSB should have added a reminder of the importance to monitor the airspeed particularly carefully in a situation of unexpected poor performance(or expected poor performance).

Anyways, if they won't, I will.

Yep

I'll say it again

Would mixture leaning have helped this pilot's climb performance? Sure. But it won't help if you're pulling the nose up and getting yourself onto the backside of the power curve. Don't keep pulling in an attempt to get the performance you want. Fly the attitude and verify with airspeed.

[CpnCrunch]

A reduced climb rate, but why was this aircraft stalling. Was there some sort of obstacle to clear. I didn't see an estimate of how high the aircraft actually got. Perhaps there were no witnesses.

It says the engine ran for 93 seconds at full power (start of takeoff roll), and it crashed a mile beyond the end of the runway (about a minute) so it likely couldn't have reached more than about 500 feet AGL.

[7ECA]

Always follow the POH and engine manufacturer's recommendations, but generally you shouldn't lean in the climb below 3000ft as CHTs will rise too high.

Full rich at 5300ft shouldn't be an issue in terms of causing engine problems. It will just reduce climb rate.

Absolutely, follow the POH... But, realistically we're talking about a 152 here not significantly more powerful turbocharged six cylinder Lycoming or Continental in which steep climbs are going to result in CHT issues. Can you overheat a 152, absolutely, but it's not going to happen in the minute and a half in which this aircraft was airborne.

Yes, full rich at 5300' DA will result in a further reduction in performance. Field elevation is already over 3000' ASL, lean it out!

A lot of the engines have a %HP above which you shouldn't lean. This usually gets translated into the POHs in the form of an altitude below which you shouldn't lean if at full/climb power. In the case of a 172, takeoff is to be conducted with mixture rich, unless airport elevation is 3000ft or above. When climbing in the 172, mixture should be rich below 3000', and above 3000' it can be leaned. This of course to protect from excessive CHTs.

I'm fully aware of that, as well as POH limitations. We're also not talking about a 172 here, but an even more anemic 152... Nevertheless, be it a 172 or a 152 (neither of which have the sort of hot rod performance or overheating issues in which you'll be cooking cylinders coming out of Claresholm...) coming out of an airport that is already above 3000' ASL, in addition to the further elevated DA, lean the engine for maximum power/full static RPM.

As to the comments about ground leaning to reduce fouling at reduced RPM, again, fully aware. The problem is, if *any* pilot taxis around at *any* airport or just buggers around with low power and Mixture Rich, you're going to foul the plugs. Fouled plugs will not perform particularly well when you pull out onto the runway and push the throttle to the dash.

In closing, LEAN the damned MIXTURE! And please don't just do the stupid FTU pull it a half inch to an inch out and pretend that's good enough... on the ground or in the air.

[Reinhard]

Everyone's talking about mixture leaning technique, what about stall/spin avoidance? Should be a basic flying skill.

Regardless of what the engine is doing, as long as you have wings, airspeed will make the airplane fly.

[nobody23]

Depending on the circumstances, I am wondering if the TSB should have added a reminder of the importance to monitor the airspeed particularly carefully in a situation of unexpected poor performance(or expected poor performance).

Anyways, if they won't, I will.

Isn't this basic airmanship? Where does TSB draw the line reminding pilots how they should be flying? Don't forget the gear lever. Don't forget to use rudder landing in a crosswind...

[pelmet]

Depending on the circumstances, I am wondering if the TSB should have added a reminder of the importance to monitor the airspeed particularly carefully in a situation of unexpected poor performance(or expected poor performance).

Anyways, if they won't, I will.

Isn't this basic airmanship? Where does TSB draw the line reminding pilots how they should be flying? Don't forget the gear lever. Don't forget to use rudder landing in a crosswind...

As for basic airmanship reminders....that is what the TSB is there to do. To write reports and make suggestions for the repeated failures of basic airmanship that we see in so many accidents. Then pilots, especially inexperienced pilots will be reminded of the consequences of becoming lax on such items.

[rookiepilot]

Isn't this basic airmanship? Where does TSB draw the line reminding pilots how they should be flying? Don't forget the gear lever. Don't forget to use rudder landing in a crosswind...

Distraction from a poorly running engine might have been a factor.

[pdw]

The lack of (high density alt) leaning factor (1) makes sense as contributor to diminishing of the power curve and by associated plug fouling tendencies that arise with the resulting rich mixtures (excessive). Mixture here found to be at full rich during departure above 5000o DA. …

That could be distraction .. at a critical time

Then also some other cheese/factors IMO weighing in:

The early liftoff (2) in 90deg right crosswind has it nearing (3) left turnout position (easily in those “93 seconds full power”) by the ‘one nautical mile away from the airport’

Climbing while initiating left here increases tailwind vector (4) and with the typical ‘nose on horizon’ (a natural excessive climb angle) toward rising foothills elevations (not home turf flatland) …. (5) near gross weight ‘unplanned’(predetermined by circumstances of fuel leak check).

[Scoob]

Depending on the circumstances, I am wondering if the TSB should have added a reminder of the importance to monitor the airspeed particularly carefully in a situation of unexpected poor performance(or expected poor performance).

Anyways, if they won't, I will.

Isn't this basic airmanship? Where does TSB draw the line reminding pilots how they should be flying? Don't forget the gear lever. Don't forget to use rudder landing in a crosswind...

Yep, hence why the final report came out in 4 months instead of the usual 12-24.

[porcsord]

Yep, hence why the final report came out in 4 months instead of the usual 12-24.

It's also a class 4 investigation, so there is no analysis section. The timeline for producing them is much faster. Class 3's... the "common" ones or the ones that people likely think of when it comes to the reports are targeted at ~450 days (a little under a year and a half for those afflicted with pilot math syndrome PMS)

[‘Bob’]

Pilot math gets better after you're 456 months old.

One thing to be aware of at high DA is your pitch attitude will need to be much lower for the required airspeed. It's not a matter of pitching to what you think is the correct climb attitude and checking airspeed. By the time you do that, you've already lost it and you'll have to pitch even lower than the correct pitch attitude for that DA to correct it.

I always liked keeping the attitude low and gaining airspeed in ground effect first. Or for an airport with an obstacle, picking a different day.

[pdw]

Speaking of “checking airspeed” … it’s also about navigating from the right seat here; that is another thing that comes to mind when having noticed an airspeed bleed …. it’s about catching it immediately which is enhanced (noticability) by its location top left corner immediately in front of you the PIC. Interesting that you can imagine here it would be farthest away (off/up to the left) while reaqainting with right seat position flying.