Jet stream down

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Diavik's insurance company will go after NWAL's insurance company so will likely get the details from court filings. Long before TSB does their two year long thesis and says they had the wrong altimeter setting.

[cncpc]

I can't recall a fatal commerical aircraft accident in Canada were the captain was not identified in the media, while the FO is being characterized as a "victim" (granted it's the CBC, but still). I understand the familys wish not to release the name, but when has that ever stopped the media from reporting it in the past. Journalism 101, Who? What? When? Where? How? Who, it's the first one. All very odd.

The "who" is Northwestern Air Lease Ltd. The "What" is a descent into terrain immediately after takeoff. The "When" is the early morning of January 23rd. The "How" is now being investigated by The Transportation Safety Board of Canada, one of the most respected accident investigation agencies in the world.

When has "that" ever stopped the media from reporting. For starters, right now. The CBC knows the pilot's name. They will not print it out of respect for the family's wishes. I expect they will if the TSB attributes some blame to the pilot. I expect they will at least attach some blame to NWAL. There have been some serious defects in their operations for a fair while now. They have known it, and have done nothing about it. It was only a matter of time before those defects led to this result.

[cncpc]

Diavik's insurance company will go after NWAL's insurance company so will likely get the details from court filings. Long before TSB does their two year long thesis and says they had the wrong altimeter setting.

And what would Diavik sue for?

[cncpc]

Diavik's insurance company will go after NWAL's insurance company so will likely get the details from court filings. Long before TSB does their two year long thesis and says they had the wrong altimeter setting.

It will not be the wrong altimeter setting. They were taking off. The first instrument that affects the crews actions will be the ASI, which triggers the V2 rotate call. The second instrument is the rate of climb indicator, which triggers the "positive rate/gear up" dialogue. I expect that will be of interest to those listening to the CVR.

[nobody23]

Diavik's insurance company will go after NWAL's insurance company so will likely get the details from court filings. Long before TSB does their two year long thesis and says they had the wrong altimeter setting.

It will not be the wrong altimeter setting. They were taking off. The first instrument that affects the crews actions will be the ASI, which triggers the V2 rotate call. The second instrument is the rate of climb indicator, which triggers the "positive rate/gear up" dialogue. I expect that will be of interest to those listening to the CVR.

I’m assuming you mean V1,VR

[Dry Guy]

The plane was pulled out of warm hangar into falling snow. There was a delay waiting for 3 passengers to arrive. When they took off the wings and/or tail were contaminated.

The reason they want the name out of the news is they are worried about the deceased passenger's families and employer coming after his estate.

[Nauclerus]

The reason they want the name out of the news is they are worried about the deceased passenger's families and employer coming after his estate.

Has there ever been a case in Canada were a commerical pilots personal estate has been sued as the result of a fatal accident while they were operating in the employ of a corporation ? I can't think of any, but I'm no expert. The ramifications would be significant if every commerical pilot needs to start buying personal liability insurance. In any event I can't imagine simply keeping ones name out of the media would have any effect on whether one will get sued or not.

[Donald]

It will not be the wrong altimeter setting. They were taking off. The first instrument that affects the crews actions will be the ASI, which triggers the V2 rotate call. The second instrument is the rate of climb indicator, which triggers the "positive rate/gear up" dialogue. I expect that will be of interest to those listening to the CVR.

The plane was pulled out of warm hangar into falling snow. There was a delay waiting for 3 passengers to arrive. When they took off the wings and/or tail were contaminated.

The reason they want the name out of the news is they are worried about the deceased passenger's families and employer coming after his estate.

Let's come back to these in 18-24 months. I'd be willing to bet that at least 1 of these theories is 100% incorrect. If you have more than pure speculation, please bring proof. Otherwise, let's show some respect here.

[cncpc]

I understand the theory of what you propose, Donald. However there are people, admittedly not on here, who have an urgent interest in knowing what happened as soon as possible. This was a preventable accident, but it wasn't prevented. People who ride those airplanes are now lacking information on which they can make their choices of mode of transport, and choose a carrier, or refuse to ride on a specific carrier. Diavik and the other mine operators would be reckless to just carry on as if nothing had happened, or oblivious to what they know did happen. Travel to NWAL destinations is now at higher risk than in the past. People stake their lives, their family and friends lives, in the interim of 18-24 months, in the absence of information on the possible cost of that staking. It's like being asked to play blackjack without seeing your own cards or the dealers.

The NTSB issues interim reports as soon as any cause and future risk is identified. The TSB doesn't. This is an accident that cries out for a lifting of that policy.

In the meantime, it is possible that some from outside the process who have factual information, not bullshit theories, should speak out. As an example, we have had a poster say that the airplane was pulled out of a warm hangar while it was snowing. I do not believe that happens at NWAL. I do know that sometimes the hangar doors are opened a couple of hours before flight to cold soak in the hangar, which may have a curtain across to separate the due up airplanes form those staying in the hangar. Other times, the airplanes are left outside with electric heaters inside. Some one may presume the hangar they are seeing airplanes pulled out of was warm. But, the poster may be a rampie ordered to hook the tug up, and he is exactly right on what happened and is giving us an insight into what happened.

There are a lot of people at NWAL right now who know what happened.

[Justjohn]

The plane was pulled out of warm hangar into falling snow. There was a delay waiting for 3 passengers to arrive. When they took off the wings and/or tail were contaminated.

The reason they want the name out of the news is they are worried about the deceased passenger's families and employer coming after his estate.

You are SO wrong. The airplane was in the cold side of the hangar. De-ice sprayer was standing by and the crew were observed climbing on ladders doing a tactile test just before closing up.

NWAL has some issues but they are competent at operating in the North.

[goldeneagle]

Has there ever been a case in Canada were a commerical pilots personal estate has been sued as the result of a fatal accident while they were operating in the employ of a corporation ?

yes there has. Islander that vanished years ago somewhere in the coast range. The pilot's estate was sued into oblivion, and to this day the accident site has never been found, so there is / was no evidence supporting any theory as to why it vanished.

[nobody23]

DON’T SPECULATE!
Ok, tell me what you know?
NO, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!
Ok. (Continues to speculate)

Within a week the NTSB stated water in the fuel of a fatal cougar crash 2 weeks ago. Rubber seal from fuel cap was missing. Let the mistakes made be lessons learned to fellow aviators.
In Canada? No way, secret secret. People at F up, get over it and put their ego away for the sake of everyone else learning or being reminded why we do the things we do and not rush/skip items that are there for a reason.

[nobody23]

.

[pelmet]

NWAL has some issues but they are competent at operating in the North.

My only experience with NWAL was quite a long time ago. It was mentioned in the last paragraph of a long post I made in 2018......

viewtopic.php?p=1056056#p1056056

[Dry Guy]

You are SO wrong. The airplane was in the cold side of the hangar. De-ice sprayer was standing by and the crew were observed climbing on ladders doing a tactile test just before closing up.

NWAL has some issues but they are competent at operating in the North.

I know but the best way get information online is to just blurt out things confidently and wait for someone to correct you.

[Justjohn]

You are SO wrong. The airplane was in the cold side of the hangar. De-ice sprayer was standing by and the crew were observed climbing on ladders doing a tactile test just before closing up.

NWAL has some issues but they are competent at operating in the North.

I know but the best way get information online is to just blurt out things confidently and wait for someone to correct you.

And …. Placed on the ignore list.

[55+]

The aircraft in question departed from the north west runway at Fort Smith , failed to climb and impacted terrain from DER which resulted in a tragic loss of lives. This is the current established fact, anything outside of that is superfluous/conjecture/speculation.

Personally I certainly don’t need to know the names of the deceased because it isn’t any of my business other that to offer my sincere condolences to family/friends and co-workers of the company involved.

[cncpc]

You are SO wrong. The airplane was in the cold side of the hangar. De-ice sprayer was standing by and the crew were observed climbing on ladders doing a tactile test just before closing up.

NWAL has some issues but they are competent at operating in the North.

I know but the best way get information online is to just blurt out things confidently and wait for someone to correct you.

And …. Placed on the ignore list.

Thanks for your original post, John. Absolutely spot on. It was either cold side, or out all night with heaters inside. And, yes, they were well competent for operating in the North, not so much in other matters. In some aspects they were trapped in a time warp. In a business sense, they survived because they had a monopoly in which getting in and out of town quickly meant getting on a Jetstream. They were primitive in modern business practices and areas such as training.

So the ice checks were done on the terminal ramp with people already boarded?

[Justjohn]

I know but the best way get information online is to just blurt out things confidently and wait for someone to correct you.

And …. Placed on the ignore list.

Thanks for your original post, John. Absolutely spot on. It was either cold side, or out all night with heaters inside. And, yes, they were well competent for operating in the North, not so much in other matters. In some aspects they were trapped in a time warp. In a business sense, they survived because they had a monopoly in which getting in and out of town quickly meant getting on a Jetstream. They were primitive in modern business practices and areas such as training.

So the ice checks were done on the terminal ramp with people already boarded?

Final tactile test was done just before closing with the last of the PAX boaded. Home base was always where the best de-ice equipment was, excepting a private contractor in CYOJ, I would lend more credence to a deice issue if they were departing literally anywhere else.

As for any suspiciousness because the captain’s family doesn’t want his name released, this was the old school way and he’s an old school guy. It’s only in the modern era of endless social media that people have come to expect a lack of privacy. In a different era this was a normal thing. And frankly his family care’s little for some strangers burning need to know his name. The eldest members of his family are war time survivors from Europe from a time when most families had suffered some kind of trauma. This is their wish, not NWAL’s.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Good info above, thanks. What's takeoff flaps for a Jetstream, and will it climb without any?

[Justjohn]

Good info above, thanks. What's takeoff flaps for a Jetstream, and will it climb without any?

A flap zero takeoff is an approved procedure. To do this changes the numbers a little. Essentially you can trade a longer ground roll for a better 3rd segment of climb. A full flap takeoff is not in anyway approved. However it is a certification requirement that an accidental full flap takeoff be survivable or a takeoff configuration warning (usually a horn) is required.

[cncpc]

DON’T SPECULATE!
Ok, tell me what you know?
NO, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!
Ok. (Continues to speculate)

Within a week the NTSB stated water in the fuel of a fatal cougar crash 2 weeks ago. Rubber seal from fuel cap was missing. Let the mistakes made be lessons learned to fellow aviators.
In Canada? No way, secret secret. People at F up, get over it and put their ego away for the sake of everyone else learning or being reminded why we do the things we do and not rush/skip items that are there for a reason.

I do agree with this post, maybe not so much with the attitude, but with the core logic. It goes beyond that.

As I understand it, NWAL continues to fly, although nobody knows what caused this flight to crash, and thus no one has any assurance that it won't happen on the next flight. Knowledge that may provide information enabling passengers to make what may be life or death choices is being withheld by the Minister of Transport. I'm told the Diavik flights are continuing. On whose advice?

I do think the NTSB has it right with releasing cause information on a preliminary basis, with the rider that the investigation is continuing.

[porcsord]

As I understand it, NWAL continues to fly, although nobody knows what caused this flight to crash, and thus no one has any assurance that it won't happen on the next flight. Knowledge that may provide information enabling passengers to make what may be life or death choices is being withheld by the Minister of Transport. I'm told the Diavik flights are continuing. On whose advice?

I do think the NTSB has it right with releasing cause information on a preliminary basis, with the rider that the investigation is continuing.

I think when there is risk of reoccurance the TSB does release information. Example:

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... W0045.html

I believe an emergency AD or SB was released within 10 days of the accident regarding the pins.

[cncpc]

As I understand it, NWAL continues to fly, although nobody knows what caused this flight to crash, and thus no one has any assurance that it won't happen on the next flight. Knowledge that may provide information enabling passengers to make what may be life or death choices is being withheld by the Minister of Transport. I'm told the Diavik flights are continuing. On whose advice?

I do think the NTSB has it right with releasing cause information on a preliminary basis, with the rider that the investigation is continuing.

I think when there is risk of reoccurance the TSB does release information. Example:

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... W0045.html

I believe an emergency AD or SB was released within 10 days of the accident regarding the pins.

For a moment there, I thought you were referring to the gear leg pins on the Jetstream. On two occasions I can remember, one pin or more has been left in on an NWAL Jetstream. You don't get three green after selecting gear up and you just go back and land. But, it could be a distraction in the circumstances of dark night takeoffs from 30 in Fort Smith. Not saying that happened, though.

[cncpc]

Has there ever been a case in Canada were a commerical pilots personal estate has been sued as the result of a fatal accident while they were operating in the employ of a corporation ?

yes there has. Islander that vanished years ago somewhere in the coast range. The pilot's estate was sued into oblivion, and to this day the accident site has never been found, so there is / was no evidence supporting any theory as to why it vanished.

Did that case go against Mel's estate?