Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[billybgone345]

In 2022 Air Canada broke their 60% Jazz flow-through agreement. The first 285ish that came to Air Canada property in 2023 are part of the Jazz grievance against Air Canada management.
As an update given from the Jazz grievance committee (and given from a friend), the grievance is to be heard by the CIRB in May with Jazz's ALPA representing the current Air Canada pilots for a settlement.

I heard a far fetched rumour they sued for $200,000 a head for each pilot since they lost hundreds of seniority numbers. Remember AC was hiring 40 every 2 weeks and some of those Jazz guys involved in the grevience were hired in Fall 2023 instead of 2022 as the flow dictated.

[tango308]

Thank you for the update.

[flyingcanuck]

who are these 285 ish people?

[yhz41]

Is Jazz ALPA ever going to reach out to these people?

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Is there any way to see or read this hearing publicly?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Is there any way to see or read this hearing publicly?

They are public hearings yes, however, they do not record or transcript their hearings. But you’re more than welcome to attend in person unless someone files a motion to keep it under wraps..

More info:

https://cirb-ccri.gc.ca/en/our-processe ... l-hearings

[tango308]

who are these 285 ish people?

80% of AC new hires between Sept '23 and Dec '23.

[Optimus Primer]

Why just the 285 that actually got hired and not the ones that didn't? Those that make up the 37% that went to AC were certainly affected, but I'd say the missing 23% that didn't and are still stuck at Jazz are more negatively impacted.

[truedude]

Why just the 285 that actually got hired and not the ones that didn't? Those that make up the 37% that went to AC were certainly affected, but I'd say the missing 23% that didn't and are still stuck at Jazz are more negatively impacted.

My understanding is, and I could be wrong, that it isn't just about the 285 that should have flowed, but the entirety of the Jazz pilots, as it impacted upgrades, schedules, and other quality of life items for everyone as a result.

And another one will filled here soon regarding the failure to meet the 60% in 2023.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Why just the 285 that actually got hired and not the ones that didn't? Those that make up the 37% that went to AC were certainly affected, but I'd say the missing 23% that didn't and are still stuck at Jazz are more negatively impacted.

My understanding is, and I could be wrong, that it isn't just about the 285 that should have flowed, but the entirety of the Jazz pilots, as it impacted upgrades, schedules, and other quality of life items for everyone as a result.

And another one will filled here soon regarding the failure to meet the 60% in 2023.

I really hope it works out for all affected. Dirty tactics. Best of luck

[Nick678]

I reached out to the CIRB and nothing scheduled yet. 200,000 a head seems ridiculous though. No doubt the loss of seniority was detrimental but It’s basically impossible to calculate the cost for loss of seniority.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I reached out to the CIRB and nothing scheduled yet. 200,000 a head seems ridiculous though. No doubt the loss of seniority was detrimental but It’s basically impossible to calculate the cost for loss of seniority.

There’s some pretty smart math people out there. Actuaries can probably figure out some kind of equation here. If required, it could be calculated I’m sure

[Nick678]

I reached out to the CIRB and nothing scheduled yet. 200,000 a head seems ridiculous though. No doubt the loss of seniority was detrimental but It’s basically impossible to calculate the cost for loss of seniority.

There’s some pretty smart math people out there. Actuaries can probably figure out some kind of equation here. If required, it could be calculated I’m sure

I’m not aware of any metric out there so they would setting a precedent for future cases. Not only did they loose upgrade potential at AC and raises with YOS but also accepted lower wages at jazz for that flow agreement. How far would they go with it?

[CaptDukeNukem]

I reached out to the CIRB and nothing scheduled yet. 200,000 a head seems ridiculous though. No doubt the loss of seniority was detrimental but It’s basically impossible to calculate the cost for loss of seniority.

There’s some pretty smart math people out there. Actuaries can probably figure out some kind of equation here. If required, it could be calculated I’m sure

I’m not aware of any metric out there so they would setting a precedent for future cases. Not only did they loose upgrade potential at AC and raises with YOS but also accepted lower wages at jazz for that flow agreement. How far would they go with it?

I guess that’s why there is a CIRB process. I’m not saying this an easy thing to solve. Quite on the contrary, I agree with you. My personal opinion is that it’s become too complex and too much time has passed to make an easy decision regarding a blatant contract violation. The figures also seem high to me, but at the same time, they don’t. I’m no expert in these matters. I’ll respectfully pass the microphone to those with contract experience.

[rudder]

There’s some pretty smart math people out there. Actuaries can probably figure out some kind of equation here. If required, it could be calculated I’m sure

I’m not aware of any metric out there so they would setting a precedent for future cases. Not only did they loose upgrade potential at AC and raises with YOS but also accepted lower wages at jazz for that flow agreement. How far would they go with it?

I guess that’s why there is a CIRB process. I’m not saying this an easy thing to solve. Quite on the contrary, I agree with you. My personal opinion is that it’s become too complex and too much time has passed to make an easy decision regarding a blatant contract violation. The figures also seem high to me, but at the same time, they don’t. I’m no expert in these matters. I’ll respectfully pass the microphone to those with contract experience.

If it has been filed with the CIRB, it is not a grievance but a ULP (unfair labour practice).

Given the multiparty nature of the flow agreement, it seems the logical venue as a Jazz pilot cannot grieve AC and an arbitrator cannot issue remedy against AC for a Jazz CBA breach.

[billybgone345]

Why just the 285 that actually got hired and not the ones that didn't? Those that make up the 37% that went to AC were certainly affected, but I'd say the missing 23% that didn't and are still stuck at Jazz are more negatively impacted.

These are the only ones with a solid legal case- when you added up 60% of those that should have been hired in 2022 and subtracted the few Jazz that did flow over you are left with 285 spots that should have been given to Jazz but instead was given to those outside the AC network.
By October 2022 it was impossible even with 100% for meeting the Jazz quota, but legally the union wasn't able to do anything. They had to sit until Dec 31 to 'warn' AC that they are significantly below the 60% quota and then Management had until Feb 28 to 'correct' this error. It was only in March 2023 that they were finally in a legal position to create a unfair labour practice but as much as everyone on property was affected the cut and dry legal case was for those 285ish individuals.

Edit: unfair labour practice not greivence

[Fanblade]

No doubt the loss of seniority was detrimental but It’s basically impossible to calculate the cost for loss of seniority.

Individually no. An actuary coming up with a mean impact can absolutely be done. Just being one year behind on the pay scale for twelve years will add up significantly. Never mind the losses associated from seniority or pension.

I have no idea on the merits of the case but wish the Jazz (now AC) pilots affected well. They deserve compensation

[Nick678]

Can someone explain why they decided to file a complaint with the CIRB instead of a grievance with the company? I was under the impression that it was to get AC named/involved in the complaint but as rudder mentioned they are not.

Since the violation there hasn’t been any communication to explain this.

[rudder]

Can someone explain why they decided to file a complaint with the CIRB instead of a grievance with the company? I was under the impression that it was to get AC named/involved in the complaint but as rudder mentioned they are not.

Since the violation there hasn’t been any communication to explain this.

Actually, AC is involved IF it was AC that decided not to take 60%. If it was Jazz that told AC to not take 60%, then it is all on Jazz. However, a Jazz/ALPA grievance does not touch AC although AC could be called as a witness.

The CPA will also form part of the evidence trail.

The Jazz pilots gave up $$ for flow. Quid pro quo. One party (or perhaps two?) accepted the quid but did not honour the quo.

This complaint is like the common employer petition decades ago. A petition without an assured outcome regardless of the underlying facts.

[WhataYoke]

Hopefully big gains for those affected by this ULP and setting a precedent for others in the future. A little kick in the shins for AC...

[link821]

At the very least.... I would like to be paid for my time flying AC passengers, in AC an uniform, in an airplane that has AC written on the side of it...paid based on your doh at Jazz would help me feel like this wasn't the biggest career mistake ever.

[kiaszceski]

You got fucked. Get over it.

[altiplano]

All the best of luck on this, but what a ridiculous deal, pay cuts from your employer now and scorched into the future so you can have an increased chance of going to another employer. Seems a little tricky to me.

No group should get an advantage on service date or pay progess, show up and get on the list same as everyone else. If Jazz doesn't pay enough or offer you what you can get from another employer, either prioritize an increase to your wawcon or go somewhere that's competitive and delivers. Jazz used to be one of the best jobs, seems these fake carrots have F-d it all up.

[cdnavater]

At the very least.... I would like to be paid for my time flying AC passengers, in AC an uniform, in an airplane that has AC written on the side of it...paid based on your doh at Jazz would help me feel like this wasn't the biggest career mistake ever.

As a Jazz pilot who has been flying AC passengers for about 20 years now, I was not hired by AC and even though AC owned Jazz when I started I don’t and did not expect that, ever.
If we were ever bought and merged in, huge hypothetical, I would expect to have some type of formula and fences to not lose my current lifestyle, but certainly not DOH at Jazz.

[crystalpizza]

Does anyone know if application date to AC from Jazz is a factor in whether or not one is part of the 285 or is it all the first 285 to go to AC in 2023 full stop?