Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

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CanadaAir
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by CanadaAir »

digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:39 pm
I agree that what you propose would generally be safer. I'm just not sure if it's really required. If we step down from the airlines (where the inexperienced captains are a fairly new concept), and we look at 703/704 ops, where flight instructors go DEC on King Airs and Metros, then we see that it happens without significant issues. If they can survive icing, gravel runways, broken planes, minimal support, then why would those same people not be able to survive in a highly regulated 705 environment?

If you look at the major causes for accidents (CFIT, icing), then those aren't really airline/airplane specific. I'd estimate the step from FI to King Air captain is riskier than King Air captain to Q400 captain with the proper training.
Is it that bad at the lower end that FI are going captain on king air?
That didn't happen past.

Did a search
Perimeter requiring 500 hr on type before captain
Others should be the same.

Most airlines have a matrix for upgrades including time on type, years at company, total hours & other factors. Not new. Jazz might not needed a matrix in past since used to take many years at company to upgrade. Time to make an upgrade matrix.
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GodlvlPilot
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by GodlvlPilot »

CanadaAir wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:43 am
digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:39 pm
I agree that what you propose would generally be safer. I'm just not sure if it's really required. If we step down from the airlines (where the inexperienced captains are a fairly new concept), and we look at 703/704 ops, where flight instructors go DEC on King Airs and Metros, then we see that it happens without significant issues. If they can survive icing, gravel runways, broken planes, minimal support, then why would those same people not be able to survive in a highly regulated 705 environment?

If you look at the major causes for accidents (CFIT, icing), then those aren't really airline/airplane specific. I'd estimate the step from FI to King Air captain is riskier than King Air captain to Q400 captain with the proper training.
Is it that bad at the lower end that FI are going captain on king air?
That didn't happen past.

Did a search
Perimeter requiring 500 hr on type before captain
Others should be the same.

Most airlines have a matrix for upgrades including time on type, years at company, total hours & other factors. Not new. Jazz might not needed a matrix in past since used to take many years at company to upgrade. Time to make an upgrade matrix.
Can tell you without a doubt that even though their website says that. They are upgrading guys with way less then that.

Sure they like guys to have 500 hours but when you need to get the chips up to shamattawa at 0dark30 winters night you will take the guy willing to fill the seat.
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digits_
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by digits_ »

CanadaAir wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:43 am
digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:39 pm
I agree that what you propose would generally be safer. I'm just not sure if it's really required. If we step down from the airlines (where the inexperienced captains are a fairly new concept), and we look at 703/704 ops, where flight instructors go DEC on King Airs and Metros, then we see that it happens without significant issues. If they can survive icing, gravel runways, broken planes, minimal support, then why would those same people not be able to survive in a highly regulated 705 environment?

If you look at the major causes for accidents (CFIT, icing), then those aren't really airline/airplane specific. I'd estimate the step from FI to King Air captain is riskier than King Air captain to Q400 captain with the proper training.
Is it that bad at the lower end that FI are going captain on king air?
That didn't happen past.

Did a search
Perimeter requiring 500 hr on type before captain
Others should be the same.

Most airlines have a matrix for upgrades including time on type, years at company, total hours & other factors. Not new. Jazz might not needed a matrix in past since used to take many years at company to upgrade. Time to make an upgrade matrix.
I know it didn't happen in the past. That's why I brought it up. To show you that those big steps that were previously unheard of, can happen safely. Which might be an indication that 704 cpt to DEC 705 might be safely achievable as well, with the proper training.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by Outlaw58 »

digits_ wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:31 pm
CanadaAir wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:43 am
digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:39 pm
I agree that what you propose would generally be safer. I'm just not sure if it's really required. If we step down from the airlines (where the inexperienced captains are a fairly new concept), and we look at 703/704 ops, where flight instructors go DEC on King Airs and Metros, then we see that it happens without significant issues. If they can survive icing, gravel runways, broken planes, minimal support, then why would those same people not be able to survive in a highly regulated 705 environment?

If you look at the major causes for accidents (CFIT, icing), then those aren't really airline/airplane specific. I'd estimate the step from FI to King Air captain is riskier than King Air captain to Q400 captain with the proper training.
Is it that bad at the lower end that FI are going captain on king air?
That didn't happen past.

Did a search
Perimeter requiring 500 hr on type before captain
Others should be the same.

Most airlines have a matrix for upgrades including time on type, years at company, total hours & other factors. Not new. Jazz might not needed a matrix in past since used to take many years at company to upgrade. Time to make an upgrade matrix.
I know it didn't happen in the past. That's why I brought it up. To show you that those big steps that were previously unheard of, can happen safely. Which might be an indication that 704 cpt to DEC 705 might be safely achievable as well, with the proper training.
I would agree on the matrix but not for the same reason as you.

Matrix would not make things safer than they already are since the pilot has to pass the CA trg and get released to the line which does not happen unless the pilot has demonstrated the ability and consistency to safely operate as a Jazz CA.

The Matrix would however prevent wasting precious trg resources on candidates that have little or no chances of successfully completing the upgrade training.

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dontcallmeshirley
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

Low time pilots can be better than high time pilots.

All airlines have their worst pilots.

Jazz pilots who are hired at 250 and have spent 1000 hours in a 705 environment are arguably better suited for AC than a 1500 hour pilot who spent 1300 hours instructing.

How about train and test for competency?
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NotDirty!
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by NotDirty! »

altiplano wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:06 am "Upgrading with little to no type experience"

Newsflash.

Stories like that happen every month at this country's airlines and it's been happening for 85 years. Same goes south of the border at the largest airline market in the world.

I upgraded into a type I had ZERO time on at this country's largest airline. I've been Captain on that aircraft for 6 years successfully and without incident. The next aircraft I plan to be a Captain on, probably in the next few years, I also have ZERO time on.

You can either do the job or you can't. The system is in place to ensure that those that can't do the job don't get it.
I was going to say exactly this!

How is a company supposed to introduce a new type? Gotta get those captains up to 1500 hours on type before they can be captain?

Understanding the nuances of a new type can take time, but I’m sure that a competent pilot can become a competent captain on a new type with some quality training, and a few days of line indoc.
Decision making skills don’t care what type you’re flying! Flying a King Air in the North probably requires some more difficult decision making than airline flying, due to lack of available resources. Some of those pilots, however, have difficulty transitioning to airline flying because they aren’t comfortable using (or don’t want to use) the resources available to them!
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CanadaAir
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by CanadaAir »

altiplano wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:06 am "Upgrading with little to no type experience"

I upgraded into a type I had ZERO time on at this country's largest airline. I've been Captain on that aircraft for 6 years successfully and without incident. The next aircraft I plan to be a Captain on, probably in the next few years, I also have ZERO time on.
There's a difference between a 10 year Air canada captain changing types from jet to jet at the same company, vs a king air or navajo pilot going captain on an RJ or Q400.

Would you agree that placing a captain like that, who's only flown on type for 50 hours with a new 250 hr fo is dangerous?
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CanadaAir
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by CanadaAir »

dontcallmeshirley wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:58 am Low time pilots can be better than high time pilots.

All airlines have their worst pilots.

Jazz pilots who are hired at 250 and have spent 1000 hours in a 705 environment are arguably better suited for AC than a 1500 hour pilot who spent 1300 hours instructing.

How about train and test for competency?
Yes, a 1000 hr on type FO's should know more than the 1500 hr instructor direct entry to captain.

They shirley can't be placing Cessna or light twin instructors direct captain at Jazz?
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CanadaAir
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by CanadaAir »

NotDirty! wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:56 am

How is a company supposed to introduce a new type? Gotta get those captains up to 1500 hours on type before they can be captain?


Most new types are brought in with the company's most experienced pilots, or pilots from other airlines with experience on type.
Never with junior captains or new hire fo. Once senior captains are comfortable then the fleet expands.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

CanadaAir wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:00 am
NotDirty! wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:56 am

How is a company supposed to introduce a new type? Gotta get those captains up to 1500 hours on type before they can be captain?


Most new types are brought in with the company's most experienced pilots, or pilots from other airlines with experience on type.
Never with junior captains or new hire fo. Once senior captains are comfortable then the fleet expands.
I’m with you on this one. Porter has brought in new aircraft type using DEC with embraer time or experienced captains.
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SkyBagPiper
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Re: Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

Post by SkyBagPiper »

To answer the 95% of DEC fail is pretty normal. Not bashing any other jobs out there, but when you go from a instructor job with no turboprop, SOP or international experience. Or come from a northern operator flying Navajos or King airs with little to no SOP discipline. Don’t be surprised to see a high rate of failure.

I remember when I shifted from C182/C206 to heavier metal, my first month under heavy SOP’s liquified my brain.

Im pretty sure left seat guys with jet time from external carriers trying the DEC ride is a breeze.
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