Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[Stu Pidasso]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

Now that's funny, you think we should shuffle the Seniority List because your Flow Date was not met? Maybe explain that to the ex-Cathay T7 Captain how you should now be Senior to him - good luck with that. You will get zero respect for this position from your fellow AC Pilots or AC ALPA.

This would also open a pandora's box of old Seniority complaints as there is history of Pilot's being held back at their respective Regionals, who also ended up getting the shaft.

When the decision was made to no longer live up to the 60% in-take, you can count on the fact that this was not done in a vacuum. There are plenty of smart contract minds in AC Flight Ops, not to mention a highly paid group of Lawyers.

[pipedream?]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

Now that's funny, you think we should shuffle the Seniority List because your Flow Date was not met? Maybe explain that to the ex-Cathay T7 Captain how you should now be Senior to him - good luck with that. You will get zero respect for this position from your fellow AC Pilots or AC ALPA.

This would also open a pandora's box of old Seniority complaints as there is history of Pilot's being held back at their respective Regionals, who also ended up getting the shaft.

When the decision was made to no longer live up to the 60% in-take, you can count on the fact that this was not done in a vacuum. There are plenty of smart contract minds in AC Flight Ops, not to mention a highly paid group of Lawyers.

It will be up to the arbitrators what a fair solution and resolution will be. But to your point, what about the 1999.9hr kingair captain? They also were hired from an operator that doesn’t have a collective agreement with AC, are they “worth” more than the Jazz pilots? Jazz pilots don’t need reminding that we’re not AC pilots, but every aspect of our contract and working conditions are dictated by same muppets that dictate yours. This isn’t about Jazz pilots trying to hurt AC pilots in seniority, this is about holding parties accountable for unfair labour practices. We share a common enemy and it’s not each other.

[lownslow]

Now that's funny, you think we should shuffle the Seniority List because your Flow Date was not met? Maybe explain that to the ex-Cathay T7 Captain how you should now be Senior to him - good luck with that. You will get zero respect for this position from your fellow AC Pilots or AC ALPA.

Well yeah, but the company would pee themselves with glee at the distraction and infighting that would cause among the pilots.

[bcflyer]

The company doesn’t control the seniority list and there is not a chance in hell that the pilots will entertain adding another division by adjusting seniority dates due to something the company did.

[goingnowherefast]

Pick the fight with the corporation, not other pilots.

[billybgone345]

The company doesn’t control the seniority list and there is not a chance in hell that the pilots will entertain adding another division by adjusting seniority dates due to something the company did.

Once again it's up to arbitration as to what is fair, not the company or union. Maybe the Jazz pilots will see lump sum payments, maybe a seniority adjustment to Feb 28 2023 (the last day the company was suppose to correct the errors of 2022). Regardless of the outcome and one's opinion on the matter I hope you support it instead of whining because the last thing we need is more infighting and a lack of respect for those affected by an unfair labour practice- all pilots should be supporting grievances against the company regardless of it affects you or not because the more times the company gets away with it the more positive reinforcement they get for abusing the contract going forward.

[bcflyer]

The company doesn’t control the seniority list and there is not a chance in hell that the pilots will entertain adding another division by adjusting seniority dates due to something the company did.

Once again it's up to arbitration as to what is fair, not the company or union. Maybe the Jazz pilots will see lump sum payments, maybe a seniority adjustment to Feb 28 2023 (the last day the company was suppose to correct the errors of 2022). Regardless of the outcome and one's opinion on the matter I hope you support it instead of whining because the last thing we need is more infighting and a lack of respect for those affected by an unfair labour practice- all pilots should be supporting grievances against the company regardless of it affects you or not because the more times the company gets away with it the more positive reinforcement they get for abusing the contract going forward.

Adjusting the seniority list only hurts fellow pilots. Period. AC couldn’t care less who is in what position and in fact would likely support it as it provides another division among the group. The only way to deter the company from violating the contract is a huge financial penalty. Money is the only thing they care about. Hit them in the wallet. Not in your fellow pilots wallet.

[cdnavater]

The company doesn’t control the seniority list and there is not a chance in hell that the pilots will entertain adding another division by adjusting seniority dates due to something the company did.

Once again it's up to arbitration as to what is fair, not the company or union. Maybe the Jazz pilots will see lump sum payments, maybe a seniority adjustment to Feb 28 2023 (the last day the company was suppose to correct the errors of 2022). Regardless of the outcome and one's opinion on the matter I hope you support it instead of whining because the last thing we need is more infighting and a lack of respect for those affected by an unfair labour practice- all pilots should be supporting grievances against the company regardless of it affects you or not because the more times the company gets away with it the more positive reinforcement they get for abusing the contract going forward.

Adjusting the seniority list only hurts fellow pilots. Period. AC couldn’t care less who is in what position and in fact would likely support it as it provides another division among the group. The only way to deter the company from violating the contract is a huge financial penalty. Money is the only thing they care about. Hit them in the wallet. Not in your fellow pilots wallet.

As true as that is, money being the only thing they care about, one thing for sure is the amount of damage is almost incalculable.
If not a seniority list shuffle, how about figuring out where they should have been and attaching their seniority to that number for anything related to seniority. So for pay purposes, when a bid comes out and if their virtual seniority could have held left seat widebody, then they are paid as though they were awarded it in the bid. This way, it continues to hurt the bottom line indefinitely. Obviously some caveats, like when their actual seniority can hold it, if they don’t bid it, the pay reverts to what they actually bid. Could work

[altiplano]

An arbitrator reaching into another pilot group's seniority list, a group that have nothing to do with you and aren't a party to your contract with your employer that isn't their employer because you have a problem with an item is a pipe dream. That in itself would be unfair labour practises.

Maybe you'll get paid, I won't be surprised though if the arbitrator tosses that article out of your collective agreement. It's the most ridiculous thing, an article that promises you'll get an opportunity to quit and move to what is probably initially a lower payed job at an entity that your contract isn't with.

You say that improving pay was the priority in these agreements, but bullshit like this article depress your pay. Chasing metal depresses pay.

Why is Jazz parking planes? Why is Jazz short staffed? Because they don't pay enough. If Jazz paid enough people would come with or without an AC flow arrangement.

That's how it used to be. There was no AC flow and Jazz was a coveted position, it was just a good job with respectable pay and opportunity.

[cdnavater]

An arbitrator reaching into another pilot group's seniority list, a group that have nothing to do with you and aren't a party to your contract with your employer that isn't their employer because you have a problem with an item is a pipe dream. That in itself would be unfair labour practises.

Maybe you'll get paid, I won't be surprised though if the arbitrator tosses that article out of your collective agreement. It's the most ridiculous thing, an article that promises you'll get an opportunity to quit and move to what is probably initially a lower payed job at an entity that your contract isn't with.

You say that improving pay was the priority in these agreements, but bullshit like this article depress your pay. Chasing metal depresses pay.

Why is Jazz parking planes? Why is Jazz short staffed? Because they don't pay enough. If Jazz paid enough people would come with or without an AC flow arrangement.

That's how it used to be. There was no AC flow and Jazz was a coveted position, it was just a good job with respectable pay and opportunity.

Altiplano, your posts are usually well thought out, this post is not that!
AC controls every aspect of our collective agreement, we just didn’t know to what extent until recently. Our pay is the result of years of driving down costs with competition we didn’t face before, you know the history of that so I won’t go in to that in great detail.
Where did the competition come from, AC, the flow was not our idea, it was negotiated in order to agree to long term contracts which provided the Jazz group a needed safety net.
In order to improve the pay we needed to become competitive with the bottom feeders taking the work, you probably have no idea how close GGN was to operating CRJ 900s, I do, I am intimately familiar with it by people in the room during those talks.
Was it a threat to get us to bend even further, possibly but they were days away from being added to their OC, now they don’t exist and of course what does AC do when we try to exercise our collective right to negotiate, they violate an agreement in several different ways using a situation of their own making as an excuse to do it.
Then, if that’s not enough, an agreement negotiated in good faith to raise the pay with “our” employer, as you said, was turned down by “your” employer. How does that happen? You’d have to be completely blind not to see who controls the narrative, we are employed by the same employer whether you like it or not.
The outcome of the unfair labour practice yet to be determined, one thing is certain, you or I won’t have any say in the outcome.

[Nick678]

An arbitrator reaching into another pilot group's seniority list, a group that have nothing to do with you and aren't a party to your contract with your employer that isn't their employer because you have a problem with an item is a pipe dream. That in itself would be unfair labour practises.


Article 4.01.02 contains guidance for a CIRB order. To think a CIRB order for an unfair labour practise would result in another is daft.

Maybe you'll get paid, I won't be surprised though if the arbitrator tosses that article out of your collective agreement. It's the most ridiculous thing, an article that promises you'll get an opportunity to quit and move to what is probably initially a lower payed job at an entity that your contract isn't with.

You say that improving pay was the priority in these agreements, but bullshit like this article depress your pay. Chasing metal depresses pay.


Why is Jazz parking planes? Why is Jazz short staffed? Because they don't pay enough. If Jazz paid enough people would come with or without an AC flow arrangement.

That's how it used to be. There was no AC flow and Jazz was a coveted position, it was just a good job with respectable pay and opportunity.

[altiplano]

Article 4.01.02 contains guidance for a CIRB order. To think a CIRB order for an unfair labour practise would result in another is daft.

Exactly. That's why reaching into another company's seniority list won't happen.

[altiplano]

Altiplano, your posts are usually well thought out, this post is not that!
AC controls every aspect of our collective agreement, we just didn’t know to what extent until recently. Our pay is the result of years of driving down costs with competition we didn’t face before, you know the history of that so I won’t go in to that in great detail.
Where did the competition come from, AC, the flow was not our idea, it was negotiated in order to agree to long term contracts which provided the Jazz group a needed safety net.
In order to improve the pay we needed to become competitive with the bottom feeders taking the work, you probably have no idea how close GGN was to operating CRJ 900s, I do, I am intimately familiar with it by people in the room during those talks.
Was it a threat to get us to bend even further, possibly but they were days away from being added to their OC, now they don’t exist and of course what does AC do when we try to exercise our collective right to negotiate, they violate an agreement in several different ways using a situation of their own making as an excuse to do it.
Then, if that’s not enough, an agreement negotiated in good faith to raise the pay with “our” employer, as you said, was turned down by “your” employer. How does that happen? You’d have to be completely blind not to see who controls the narrative, we are employed by the same employer whether you like it or not.
The outcome of the unfair labour practice yet to be determined, one thing is certain, you or I won’t have any say in the outcome.

A series of poor decisions. You guys voted in the agreement overwhelmingly. It's nobody else's fault.

Just like AC pilots have screwed up for the past 10 years. Sure ACPA led them to the piss water, but the pilots still drank it. Own your deficiencies, it's a tough game out there...

Anyways, either way SL meddling is wishful thinking. Get paid and move on

[GodlvlPilot]

AC can and has forced SL before.

AC will move towards the cheaper result for them and the shareholder. The Question is which is cheaper. A pay out per Jazz pilots or some fixings on the SL.

[cdnavater]

Altiplano, your posts are usually well thought out, this post is not that!
AC controls every aspect of our collective agreement, we just didn’t know to what extent until recently. Our pay is the result of years of driving down costs with competition we didn’t face before, you know the history of that so I won’t go in to that in great detail.
Where did the competition come from, AC, the flow was not our idea, it was negotiated in order to agree to long term contracts which provided the Jazz group a needed safety net.
In order to improve the pay we needed to become competitive with the bottom feeders taking the work, you probably have no idea how close GGN was to operating CRJ 900s, I do, I am intimately familiar with it by people in the room during those talks.
Was it a threat to get us to bend even further, possibly but they were days away from being added to their OC, now they don’t exist and of course what does AC do when we try to exercise our collective right to negotiate, they violate an agreement in several different ways using a situation of their own making as an excuse to do it.
Then, if that’s not enough, an agreement negotiated in good faith to raise the pay with “our” employer, as you said, was turned down by “your” employer. How does that happen? You’d have to be completely blind not to see who controls the narrative, we are employed by the same employer whether you like it or not.
The outcome of the unfair labour practice yet to be determined, one thing is certain, you or I won’t have any say in the outcome.

A series of poor decisions. You guys voted in the agreement overwhelmingly. It's nobody else's fault.

Just like AC pilots have screwed up for the past 10 years. Sure ACPA led them to the piss water, but the pilots still drank it. Own your deficiencies, it's a tough game out there...

Anyways, either way SL meddling is wishful thinking. Get paid and move on

So, if someone puts a loaded gun into the hands of a criminal and that criminal kills somebody robbing a bank, does the gun supplier bear any responsibility?
ACPA was the accessory to the criminal that is AC management, the gun was permission use someone other than Jazz to do tier two flying and the bank was our collective ability to negotiate with any leverage, own your shit and we’ll own ours.

[Stu Pidasso]

AC cannot unilaterally change the Pilots Seniority list and a Grievance between ALPA Jazz and Jazz is absolutely not going to having any influence.

Delusional thinking would be a compliment!

If you think a Pilot is going to sit still and let someone (anyone) shuffle this list, without a fight, is naive. AC ALPA will fight this and the Company will be 100% on side!

The newhire Pilots pushing this agenda will make themselves out to look foolish and entitled.

[pipedream?]

AC cannot unilaterally change the Pilots Seniority list and a Grievance between ALPA Jazz and Jazz is absolutely not going to having any influence.

Delusional thinking would be a compliment!

If you think a Pilot is going to sit still and let someone (anyone) shuffle this list, without a fight, is naive. AC ALPA will fight this and the Company will be 100% on side!

The newhire Pilots pushing this agenda will make themselves out to look foolish and entitled.

you guys gunna fire up ACPA 2.0? No Jazz pilot wants to hurt an AC pilots seniority...Were only entitled to what our agreement says we are and all we want is for AC to honour that and to be held accountable for decades of meddling with our agreements.

[truedude]

AC cannot unilaterally change the Pilots Seniority list and a Grievance between ALPA Jazz and Jazz is absolutely not going to having any influence.

Delusional thinking would be a compliment!

If you think a Pilot is going to sit still and let someone (anyone) shuffle this list, without a fight, is naive. AC ALPA will fight this and the Company will be 100% on side!

The newhire Pilots pushing this agenda will make themselves out to look foolish and entitled.

I don't think it will happen. But the CIRB absolutely has the legal authority to do this, and if they did, there isn't anything anyone would be able to do about it. You need to understand, it isn't in your control.

[cdnavater]

AC cannot unilaterally change the Pilots Seniority list and a Grievance between ALPA Jazz and Jazz is absolutely not going to having any influence.

Delusional thinking would be a compliment!

If you think a Pilot is going to sit still and let someone (anyone) shuffle this list, without a fight, is naive. AC ALPA will fight this and the Company will be 100% on side!

The newhire Pilots pushing this agenda will make themselves out to look foolish and entitled.

First of all, AC was a signatory of this deal and continues to exert control over our collective rights, they control who they hire and could have abided by the agreement. Choosing not to for whatever reason does not matter, it’s something they should have predicted, if not, that’s their problem.
As for changing the seniority list, you need to look at it as making things right, you’re thinking of it as it’s currently right, it’s not. The pilots hired off the street who shouldn’t have been if the agreement was abided are in the wrong spot, maybe the arbitrator will agree, maybe not.
You or I won’t have any say in that!

[Stu Pidasso]

"Aribitration" man you are a few light years ahead of yourself. The CIRB is not going to impose a ruling on the Air Canada Seniority List, you are dreaming in technicolor. Jazz was unable to fly their schedule pre-covid due to Pilot constraints, was that also Air Canada's fault?

Post-covid and the massive up tick in hiring Jazz could not live up to the 60%, unfortunate but sometime reality kicks you in the teeth.

You all got here eventually, with the easiest ride of the last 40 years. 250 hrs from the local Aviation College, 1750 hours in the right seat of a Q, free clothes, never broke a nail or got your hands dirty.

How about you look in the mirror, be grateful and enjoy the ride. Christ, we even got stuck with Captain (sorry - First Officer) Kirk.

[hithere]

Yes the CIRB, has made decisions in the past that affected SL(seniority lists) but that was generally when they were asked to arbitrate on mergers etc(think AC/CDN).
This is different. At the end of the day, someone(AC) did not honour their end of the deal(flow). Were they in bed with Jazz management when they made these decisions? Probably. Can it be proved? Unlikely. The solution?
The CIRB can force the all 4 parties into a binding seniority/flow whatever solution that once and for all fixes this incredibly perverted relationship between AC/Jazz. CIRB arbitrator Martin Teplitsky attempted that in the early-mid 2000s with his “Global Solutions” suggestion but the MECs at AC and Jazz were not friends at the time and it died. It’s been said that the airline brand networks(mainline/regional) that best manage the pilot shortage will be the most successful. There was no pilot shortage when Teplitsky made his suggestions so there was little buy in. This time it’s different. The ball is in your court AC/Jazz management

[cdnavater]

"Aribitration" man you are a few light years ahead of yourself. The CIRB is not going to impose a ruling on the Air Canada Seniority List, you are dreaming in technicolor. Jazz was unable to fly their schedule pre-covid due to Pilot constraints, was that also Air Canada's fault?

Whose fault was it then? Have you been living under a rock for Christ sake?
First of all, wtf are you talking about pre Covid, I don’t recall any issues in 2019 and early 2020, we were busy merging SR into our operation, we had somewhere around 1800 pilots.
As for not being able to keep up now, who drove our wages to the basement, was it us? We couldn’t hire enough because there are better paying jobs and for all intents and purposes, it was quicker to AC by skipping Jazz, again whose fault is that.
Our union came up with an agreement that would have made it more appealing to more experienced pilots and who denied us that, oh yeah, that’s right it was AC.
AC and you by enabling AC are the driving force behind why we can’t fly our schedule, at this point I sure hope the CIRB slaps AC real hard, as for your list, I really don’t give rats ass, I just calling out your bullshit. I’m not leaving Jazz.

[PostmasterGeneral]

For those of you at jazz wanting AC, what is your plan now? Wait around for some grievance to be settled and collect your monetary restitution? Or are you actively trying to find employment somewhere else that will actually get you into AC?

[702pipeliner]

For those of you at jazz wanting AC, what is your plan now? Wait around for some grievance to be settled and collect your monetary restitution? Or are you actively trying to find employment somewhere else that will actually get you into AC?

Essentially lots of us are sitting and waiting for interviews. Unfortunately most have upgraded to captain probably making it less desirable for ac to move us over.

Rumor has it ac has made it clear if you were at jazz they won't be calling you till your seniority number comes available regardless. So essentially the lot of us are probably waiting on a grievance or some changes.

[JoeShmoe]

I like the idea mentioned earlier of giving all the jazz pilots a "virtual" seniority number equivalent to what they should have gotten, and forcing AC to pay them for the highest paying position that number could hold for the rest of their career. Doesn't matter what they actually hold, they could be RPs the rest of their career, since pay is only part of the equation they also are taking a lifestyle hit with a lower actual seniority. This way AC can have a constant reminder for the rest of these pilots careers of what happens when they break a deal. Everyone wins, except AC.